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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted October 25, 2007 04:01 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 16:01, 25 Oct 2007.
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However, to make everything clear, let me draw a line between religion and the higher power, which I'll refer to as God.
1) God
If a higher power exists, it is quite obvious that we aren't supposed to understand it. If it wanted us to fully comprehend it, we wouldn't have worshiped bird-headed people and other deities for thousands of years. Perhaps everything has a point, perhaps not, but we cannot know that, since it is pretty hard to reveal to us. Maybe we're just an insignificant part of the universe, maybe we are the key to an inscrutable purpose. You can freely have an opinion on it, I don't think you'll be sent to hell if you don't believe in it or something (cause, well, we'd all end up in hell that way). But insisting that only your opinion is valid and logical is pointless, since if God of any sort exists it is certainly rather inexplicable by human sense. At least in this stadium of evolution.
Good definition here, and I felt free to mark 2 lines in your post which show the basic "problem" between believers and non-believers (at least to my personal experiences in real life, and to some extend here in this thread).
(Most/Many) Believers think, people who do NOT believe in god are some kind of BAD people. In some extreme religious communities, you even lose your right to live if u don't believe. On the other hand, have you ever heard of a non-believer saying something like: "People who believe in god should die, they are not worth living on this planet!"? Those arguments are heard in religions, but not in "forms" like Buddhism or Zenism. Why? Because those 2 mentioned terms are NOT religions, they are a "form of live". Buddism is mostly refered to the individual itself, full of hints how they can make their life "easier" or more confident, while christianity or islam is full of rules and "laws", and therefor full of "punishment" if you do not follow these.
And if God is rather "inexplicable", how do believers "explain" his existens to themselves then?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
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posted October 25, 2007 07:58 PM |
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Edited by executor at 19:59, 25 Oct 2007.
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On the other hand, have you ever heard of a non-believer saying something like: "People who believe in god should die, they are not worth living on this planet!"?
Unfortunatelly yes. I can't give you the source however, as I forgot who it was.
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Understanding is a three-edged sword.
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Rogue_Lord
Bad-mannered
Hired Hero
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posted October 25, 2007 08:03 PM |
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I am athetist
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I will steal all your money!
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
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Professional
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posted October 26, 2007 06:07 AM |
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I'm just wondering what makes you think that your made up idea of god is more right than the next person's made up idea of god.
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baklava
Honorable
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Mostly harmless
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posted October 26, 2007 09:18 PM |
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christianity or islam is full of rules and "laws", and therefor full of "punishment" if you do not follow these.
Yes and no. Depends on how they interpret it. In orthodox Christianity, for example, it is a bit different. Orthodox belief is that Hell isn't a physical plane where your soul burns for the rest of time, it's more of a condition of soul and emotions. I'm sure that was the original Roman catholic belief, too, but it got too commercialized over time. Orthodox people also do not believe in the Purgatory. It is not so full of punishment if you do not follow the rules.
Besides, the hypothetic punishment and reward were introduced in the beginning so that people of the time consider them more carefully. I mean, if a man in the robe came to a horde of uninterested people and told them "Would you be so nice to stop killing each others and accept Jesus?" they wouldn't really listen. But if he told them "You will accept Jesus and peace or you will burn in the fires of eternal damnation", that would leave an impression. As it did.
However, the Church continued with that dogma even after most people were converted. It pushed onward and onward with misuses and the fear campaign, and today that it gets a bit more liberal, you can find people hating not only the Church as an institution for such misuses, but also the entire idea of God itself; and everyone who supports it.
Some sort of a thirst for vengeance.
Again, I must make a parallel.
In Russia, the tzars were far from perfect. They had their misuses and were often corrupt and despotic. But the country more or less functioned under them. The Russian empire was large and powerful, and through careful planning and doses of liberalism where they were needed, it could've become a parliamentary monarchy much like the United Kingdom today.
However several individuals with an imaginary Utopian system in their heads, who did not have the patience to wait, saw a sudden weakness in the top (world war 1) as a chance to backstab the tzar and his system. They made a revolution, in which thousands of innocents died on all sides. And what did it result with?
Stalinism.
Again, just because of that thirst for revenge.
History is full of such examples. I'm not comparing atheism with communism, I am just saying that everything, no matter how good it sounds, can have its misuses. And atheism, just like any sort of religion, is among those things.
Sometimes, people just need to cool down and try to make a rational solution for something. That's why I am completely pissed with this entire atheist vs theist conflict.
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I'm just wondering what makes you think that your made up idea of god is more right than the next person's made up idea of god.
I don't. My beliefs are my thing. I am not saying anyone is wrong for not believing what I believe. I don't fully believe in any theory or idea. I already mentioned that. Several times.
I am just saying that some bitter kids sitting at home with nothing better to do have absolutely no right to demean anyone for believing in something different.
That's all.
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted October 26, 2007 10:59 PM |
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slightly off topic...
Quote:
In Russia, the tzars were far from perfect. They had their misuses and were often corrupt and despotic. But the country more or less functioned under them. The Russian empire was large and powerful, and through careful planning and doses of liberalism where they were needed, it could've become a parliamentary monarchy much like the United Kingdom today.
However several individuals with an imaginary Utopian system in their heads, who did not have the patience to wait, saw a sudden weakness in the top (world war 1) as a chance to backstab the tzar and his system. They made a revolution, in which thousands of innocents died on all sides. And what did it result with?
Stalinism.
Again, just because of that thirst for revenge.
I don't want to argue about atheism, but would like to clarify something. Are you aware that the parliamentary monarchy in the UK is possible thanks to three civil wars and hundreds of thousands of dead people, including one beheaded king?  Needless to say, your ideas about the October Revolution are oversimplified, too.
Similarly, do you honestly believe we would be able to have this conversation today if some people weren't willing to die for it?
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Shadey
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 27, 2007 12:54 AM |
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Quote:
I don't want to argue about atheism, but would like to clarify something. Are you aware that the parliamentary monarchy in the UK is possible thanks to three civil wars and hundreds of thousands of dead people, including one beheaded king? Needless to say, your ideas about the October Revolution are oversimplified, too.
Similarly, do you honestly believe we would be able to have this conversation today if some people weren't willing to die for it?
On a side note: if God doesn't exist who would be stupid enough to sacrifice their life for something as trivial as having parliamentary monarchy? Big deal you're dead, and the best part is you're forgotten within two maybe three generations of your ancestors?
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted October 27, 2007 03:10 AM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 03:45, 27 Oct 2007.
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Quote:
Quote:
I don't want to argue about atheism, but would like to clarify something. Are you aware that the parliamentary monarchy in the UK is possible thanks to three civil wars and hundreds of thousands of dead people, including one beheaded king? Needless to say, your ideas about the October Revolution are oversimplified, too.
Similarly, do you honestly believe we would be able to have this conversation today if some people weren't willing to die for it?
On a side note: if God doesn't exist who would be stupid enough to sacrifice their life for something as trivial as having parliamentary monarchy? Big deal you're dead, and the best part is you're forgotten within two maybe three generations of your ancestors?
It's not surprising you cannot understand it.  It's freedom that underlies parliamentary monarchy... and the concept of freedom is central to individualism which is so unlike your religion and faith.
As for the reward part... I don't believe those men were true Christians anyway - "do not kill", remember? So, if there were God, they would go to Hell (unless they repented on their deathbed, of course  ).
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Shadey
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 27, 2007 04:03 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I don't want to argue about atheism, but would like to clarify something. Are you aware that the parliamentary monarchy in the UK is possible thanks to three civil wars and hundreds of thousands of dead people, including one beheaded king? Needless to say, your ideas about the October Revolution are oversimplified, too.
Similarly, do you honestly believe we would be able to have this conversation today if some people weren't willing to die for it?
On a side note: if God doesn't exist who would be stupid enough to sacrifice their life for something as trivial as having parliamentary monarchy? Big deal you're dead, and the best part is you're forgotten within two maybe three generations of your ancestors?
It's not surprising you cannot understand it. It's freedom that underlies parliamentary monarchy... and the concept of freedom is central to individualism which is so unlike your religion and faith.
As for the reward part... I don't believe those men were true Christians anyway - "do not kill", remember? So, if there were God, they would go to Hell (unless they repented on their deathbed, of course ).
Ironic you say that since the Bible is what teaches "If the Son sets you free, then you shall be free indeed." Not to mention that if God doesn't exist then the only freedom you know is to be a slave to a meaning and purposeless life.
Clearly you don't understand what repentance is.
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Vlaad
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Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted October 27, 2007 05:47 AM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 05:51, 27 Oct 2007.
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Clearly you don't understand what freedom is...
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Ironic you say that since the Bible is what teaches "If the Son sets you free, then you shall be free indeed."
What if He doesn't...?
What about other gods - may I have those? May I make for myself an idol, or will He punish my children to the fourth generation? (LOL, why fourth, why not third or fifth?) May I work on Sunday? No? What about my slave? May I at least desire my neighbour's donkey? It's a nice donkey...Quote:
Not to mention that if God doesn't exist then the only freedom you know is to be a slave to a meaning and purposeless life.
Whoa, now you've hurt my feelings. 
How did you know all that about my life anyway...? Never mind, things have been picking up lately, thanks for asking. Quote:
Clearly you don't understand what repentance is.
Sure, that's when the lost son returns to his forgiving father, but only after he's been starving.
Seriously though, the concept exists outside your religion too - believe it or not. 
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Shadey
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 27, 2007 06:29 AM |
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If he doesn't, then it's based on refusing Jesus. Other gods? Yeah, you can have those. You can make idol's for yourself. Both you and your slave can work on Sunday, and if you'd like you can covet your neighbors nice donkey. It wasn't like God was picking on the Jews telling them what they could or couldn't do. He was setting forth a set of rules and regulations to understand that without God's aid they could never achieve the standard he set for them. Faith has always been the salvation factor, not performance.
So even if things are picking up in your life. What does it amount to when you die? You lose every possession and the miniscule amount of people in the world that knew you forget that you ever existed in 2, maybe 3 generations. Your existance is wiped from memory, you become nothing more than worm food. Life doesn't last that long, we're nothing more than a vapor.
Starvation is exactly the point. What you believe is freedom is exactly what the lost son believed. It wasn't untill he squandered his inheritance and starved that the lost son realized what true freedom was and returned to the loving embrace of his father.
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
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Professional
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posted October 27, 2007 06:39 AM |
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@Baklava:Quote:
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I'm just wondering what makes you think that your made up idea of god is more right than the next person's made up idea of god.
I don't. My beliefs are my thing. I am not saying anyone is wrong for not believing what I believe. I don't fully believe in any theory or idea. I already mentioned that. Several times.
I am just saying that some bitter kids sitting at home with nothing better to do have absolutely no right to demean anyone for believing in something different.
That's all.
I know they're your thing. Since they are your beliefs, then by definition you must think that they are right. Otherwise you wouldn't believe in it and we wouldn't be talking.
@Shadey:Quote:
So even if things are picking up in your life. What does it amount to when you die? You lose every possession and the miniscule amount of people in the world that knew you forget that you ever existed in 2, maybe 3 generations. Your existance is wiped from memory, you become nothing more than worm food. Life doesn't last that long, we're nothing more than a vapor.
Here we have It: The root of all religion. People believe because they are afraid.
Afraid of this.
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Shadey
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 27, 2007 07:02 AM |
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That may be the most logical reason to believe in God. However, being afraid of the afterlife or lackthereof doesn't change whether or not God exists.
The way I see it. If God exists, then atheists waste their time alive because they're doomed to an eternity seperated from God. If God doesn't exist then everyone is doomed to an eternity of non-existance and meaninglessness. Either way atheism doesn't pan out.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted October 27, 2007 07:08 AM |
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Don't you find it odd that a God who can see into the furthest reaches of our souls would accept a belief based on such shallow and calculating self-interest?
And if you do decide to believe in a God who would condemn you to hell for not worshiping him, there are many to choose from, each of which will be most displeased that you chose someone else.
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John says to live above hell.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted October 27, 2007 07:16 AM |
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I am sorry you think people believe because they are afraid. I am sure some do, maybe quite a lot, but not everybody. If I believed out of fear, it would be better for me to believe there is no dieties or gods. Though I like the idea that people get what is coming to them in the afterlife that is not why I believe either. My belief is based on things that have happened in my life. Things that can not be explained, and are too numerous to be coincidence.
Let me explain the above paragraph (if I am able). Because of who I am, most religions would be placing me either in eternal torment..to be ressurected as a dung beetle, or some other not so pleasant fate. Yet I still believe there is some higher power out there. Sure it might be (like) a kid that is using a magnifing glass to burn ants, but there is 'something' out there. Because of this, it would be better for me personally NOT to believe. Weird I know. If it was just a motive of fear that is.
I've studied 'weird' circumstances for quite awhile, especially because I am personally affected by them. Since I personally have experienced some 'psychic' phenomenon, seen spirits, and had some strange things happen to me. I have experienced what can only be described as ESP (seeing events before they happen), Empathic Abilities (the ability to sense and experience others emotions as if they were my own), and had first hand contact with spirits.
I've had more then my share of intuition, though I do experience bad fortune, it has kept me from physical harm many times. Most of these experiences (especially the ones with the spectral entities) would not be possible if there is no afterlife.
Now, mind you the spectral entities I have encountered I did not encounter at someplace where tragic events or strong emotions would have caused some sort of imprint. They are generally brief and there is no feeling of great anger or sorrow. This is getting way of topic however.
To summerize, I don't believe because I fear going to a bad place when I die (in fact the belief itself says that I am, so it would be best for me not to). I believe because my personal experiences. What you believe is your business. I am going with the evidence my own senses have given me. If I could duplicate or validate these experiences for others, I probably would not. Simply because I am a firm believer that your belief should come from your own experiences.
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Message received.
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Shadey
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 27, 2007 03:25 PM |
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Quote:
Don't you find it odd that a God who can see into the furthest reaches of our souls would accept a belief based on such shallow and calculating self-interest?
And if you do decide to believe in a God who would condemn you to hell for not worshiping him, there are many to choose from, each of which will be most displeased that you chose someone else.
You're right that would be shallow, which is why simple believing that God exists isn't the key to being born again. As I told Vlaad, repentance is the requirement to be saved. God requires a complete change in your attitude about Him, yourself, sin, how you view the world, and others. Furthermore, you must be born again, die to yourself and the world, and live as Jesus as your Lord.
Now I already know most of you feel that this is unfair and that God is mean spirited, unjust, etc. However, if you view from the perspective of a Christian you see it different.
1. We believe that God created the universe, everything in it, and all the laws of physics, chemistry, and created time.
2. We believe that God is social, and created man to be social.
3. We believe that God created man to have a free will that includes the possiblity of choosing to hate God and his plan.
4. God is perfect, and at the time of creation we were perfect. We had a perfect relationship with God. However, when sin (our disobedience) entered into the equation God by his very nature (ie didn't choose) must be seperated from us. Because of this, DEATH entered the picture as a (get ready for this) BLESSING!!! Why a blessing? Because if we were to be immortal, then we would be eternally seperated from God. Sad to say, but many people actually would prefer that state.
5. We are born seperated and opposed to God's will and grace.
6. Throughout history God has proven to us by different means that having faith in Him is the only way to restore the broken relationship.
7. We have an opportunity while we live to repent from our lives which are opposed to God, recieve the grace offered to us, and return as prodigal sons to the loving father.
8. Jesus tells us that only ONE way leads to everlasting life.
9. Not only are Christians supposed to believe in the single path to God, but ought to spread that message to the entire world.
So from that very condensed worldview, you should be able to see that I cannot just accept any worldview. It's not out of hate or spite, but out of neccesity. The same holds true for God, His will is that all people would be saved, but his very nature cannot allow that.
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baklava
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posted October 27, 2007 04:13 PM |
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I don't want to argue about atheism
Lol yeah I didn't want to either, but this topic just seems to drag you in it
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Are you aware that the parliamentary monarchy in the UK is possible thanks to three civil wars and hundreds of thousands of dead people, including one beheaded king? Needless to say, your ideas about the October Revolution are oversimplified, too.
...
Alright, bad example
But there are some examples where it was possible.
Revolutions are a huge gambit. After them, it can be either better (after a period of reconstruction) or worse (much worse). The only certain thing is that a lot of blood is spilled. That's why such revolutions shouldn't be the way, especially not today.
The 'good' revolution against the Church was the Renaissance. People got free from many harsh dogmas of medieval religion. But what some people are trying to do today, the absolute declination of any possibility of a higher power or anything we cannot understand, is quite similar to what the Church did.
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I know they're your thing. Since they are your beliefs, then by definition you must think that they are right. Otherwise you wouldn't believe in it and we wouldn't be talking.
Yes, but my beliefs by themselves are rather undefined. That's why it's called agnosticism.
What I was talking about were simply possibilities that I am thinking about. I am saying that it is possible that God is in a form which is different than what people usually believe in.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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SirDunco
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted October 27, 2007 08:17 PM |
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God requires a complete change in your attitude about Him, yourself, sin, how you view the world, and others. Furthermore, you must be born again, die to yourself and the world, and live as Jesus as your Lord.
7. We have an opportunity while we live to repent from our lives which are opposed to God, recieve the grace offered to us, and return as prodigal sons to the loving father.
8. Jesus tells us that only ONE way leads to everlasting life.
9. Not only are Christians supposed to believe in the single path to God, but ought to spread that message to the entire world.
It's not out of hate or spite, but out of neccesity. The same holds true for God, His will is that all people would be saved, but his very nature cannot allow that.
An... ehm... intriguing post. I just selected the things that captured my mind the most.
Christians believe God to be a single, all-knowing, all-powerful, eternal being, that stands above all manners of existence as we understand it.
Apart from being, as described above, they also picture him to be, vengeful, biased, prejudiced, spiteful going as far as a picture of a compulsive/obsessive , do this for me, do that for me, for I am all knowing and all powerful, if you don't you will burn in "hell" with Satan, (who was once my friend, but now is my enemy, even tough he treats bad "sinners" in a way that I like).
Quite funny, imagining an all knowing being sitting over this tiny earth, judging it's tiny inhabitants and sending his only son to die on a cross in the hands of the romans.
Some how all of this a bit ridiculous for my taste.
But then again I don't claim to understand god (if there is one), it's just my understanding of a certain interpretation of a certain faith
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
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posted October 28, 2007 03:40 AM |
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@ Shadey:
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You're right that would be shallow, which is why simple believing that God exists isn't the key to being born again. As I told Vlaad, repentance is the requirement to be saved. God requires a complete change in your attitude about Him, yourself, sin, how you view the world, and others. Furthermore, you must be born again, die to yourself and the world, and live as Jesus as your Lord.
Then your comments about Atheism simply 'not panning out' are invalid, as it obviously does not affect the belief.
Quote:
So from that very condensed worldview, you should be able to see that I cannot just accept any worldview. It's not out of hate or spite, but out of neccesity. The same holds true for God, His will is that all people would be saved, but his very nature cannot allow that.
I fail to see how that's relevant. How do you know that the Christian god is the real god, and not another?
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9. Not only are Christians supposed to believe in the single path to God, but ought to spread that message to the entire world.
Like a virus.
@Baklava:
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Yes, but my beliefs by themselves are rather undefined. That's why it's called agnosticism.
What I was talking about were simply possibilities that I am thinking about. I am saying that it is possible that God is in a form which is different than what people usually believe in.
Then you are not really arguing a belief that is different to mine. I agree that it is possible that God is in a form which is different that what people usually believe in. In fact, if there is a creator, my assumption would be that it is entirely different from any concept of God anyone has ever had.
In that sense, I am a (kinda weak) agnostic atheist, as I agree we'll never know, yet I'll argue the logical side of atheism, which is my 'belief'.
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roy-algriffin
Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
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posted October 28, 2007 06:14 AM |
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I think you could argue that
A- Jesus was just a person trying to make life better for the people around him and to try and promote general niceness. wether he had supernatural powers or not is arguable
B- Jesus never had any intention of converting people to christianity or even knew that it would exist or that his actions would create it
C- Remember jesus was killed because he was a potential troublemaker, Remember the crusades and inquisition? you could say that he was
D- While there are many religions the most widespread were the ones promoted through killing people which brings us to an interesting conclusion that basicly says if a religion came to power through fear it will stay there through fear, first fear of death and then fear of the unknown
E- The crusades and inquisition werent really about religion for the people who made them. Just tools of powers for various reasons.
If anyone missed it i am in fact jewish.Though not especially devout or orthodox
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