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TitaniumAlloy
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posted November 25, 2007 12:17 PM |
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because he is supposed to be all knowing...
besides, it's not even a matter of "getting it wrong"
Why would a creator even THINK to have a creation that simply doesn't function for a large portion of its life?
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thinking about WHY it is the way it is, that is a better choice.
We know exactly why all of those things are the way they are. Simply stating that it does not make sense from the perspective of ID.....
on an offtopic sidenote:
we do know what the function of the appendix was, we just simply no longer retain that function, as it is a vestigial structure, like the undeveloped hind legs in a whale.
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John says to live above hell.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted November 25, 2007 12:24 PM |
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Very romantic.
Unlike the stench of body odor or the location of the scrotum or the necessity of vitamins or need I go on?
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John says to live above hell.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted November 25, 2007 12:30 PM |
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I think you miss the point of this discussion.
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John says to live above hell.
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baklava
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Mostly harmless
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posted November 25, 2007 01:18 PM |
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Lol and when TA tells you you miss the point of something, then it means a lot xD
I just had to say this. You may continue. 
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Gallow
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posted November 25, 2007 04:19 PM |
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Quote:
So if I understand correctly, God also put dinosaur bones into the earth because he knew some obvious retards where gonna scream "Evolutiontheory!" and he put those bones there to test us in our faith in him, right?
Here's a little something I want to confront you with:
Loooong ago, some rebel screamed the earth was round. The religious folk all screamed that that was absolute nonesense, that god made the earth flat, etc.
As it turns out, they were proven wrong. And since, the church accepts the earth is round (I thought God himself had said he made the earth flat?). Well anyway:
Why do you think God created everything? And don't just say because the bible and all the priests say so - the bible and all the priests also said the earth was flat.
Consider this my final shot in seeing if intelligent discussion is possible with you folk.
I wanst talking about the earth if they believed that was flat,there you added lot of things clearly that i didnt even mentioned,seems you dont have the enough intelligence to get at least a bit of my point,and i wont lose my time in answer to a person like you who one day accused me from being another personand you probably do not share the same thoughts or beliefs,im not a fanatic religious,and this is my final answer in this so rotten thread.
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antipaladin
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of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted November 25, 2007 05:22 PM |
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seems you dont have the enough intelligence
A direct insult! MODAERTOR!  
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Gallow
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posted November 25, 2007 05:29 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
seems you dont have the enough intelligence
A direct insult! MODAERTOR!
Consider this my final shot in seeing if intelligent discussion is possible with you folk.
Then that was indirect insult,call the police if you want.
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angelito
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proud father of a princess
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posted November 25, 2007 05:58 PM |
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Warning for Gallow.
No need to get personal if others don't agree with you. Next insult will be "rewarded" with a penalty.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Gallow
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posted November 25, 2007 06:37 PM |
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didnt insult...anyways,penalty me like you wish,since i came to participate in this thread this forum became awfull and disgusting,bye.
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Lich_King
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posted November 25, 2007 06:42 PM |
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted November 26, 2007 12:20 AM |
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@Mytical:
Sorry, I didn't mean to be rude, but it was getting late 
My post one page back is in the original context, and the discussion is meant to be a rebuttal of intelligent design which states that, well, an 'intelligent' creator 'designed' everything, including us. The most popular analogy for this, used by ID advocates, is the 'watchmaker'. This claims that humans, as well as other things, are like watches in that they are made up of parts which are individually irreducibly complex, such that they must have been designed.
My analogy took it one step further in saying that if this is true, then the 'designer' must have been insane, not just 'unintelligent'. As I said, it's not as if we're just not perfect, because it's not the lack of something that is being complained about. I'm not denigrating god for not giving us wings. But that we have added features of which from a designer's perspective make no sense.
Why or why not we sleep is irrelevant in the context, and as you said, highly speculative. Perhaps we sleep because we need to contact god at night, but that doesn't really add anything to the discussion of ID.
edit:
The garden of eden point I must have missed, though. What you're suggesting is that we were entirely different organisms back in the garden of eden. With no scrotum, no need to sleep or eat, all perfectly and equally intelligent and beautiful etc.
This is a pretty radical statement, as we would have been a different species to what we are now, and this is almost in contradiction to the bible...
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John says to live above hell.
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TheDeath
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posted November 26, 2007 12:07 PM |
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Maybe God is dark energy.
A difference is, saying "God did it." benefits no-one.
How does 'some mysterious energy' benefit anyone?
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Dark energy is not proven but there is evidence of it through indirect observation. It is definitive and potentially testable.
Nope, it is only called 'energy' because we, as humans, like to draw analogies (from our 'standard' energies) to make up our minds about things.. not very "objective"
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God, on the other hand, is merely... what?
Energy, is... what?
seriously now, just because YOU (subjective) think energy is more logical (again, no proof to demonstrate something is more logical than another) than God, that doesn't mean it's more practical.
so it's just some kind of belief: you believe in the energy logic stuff. Note: believing doesn't mean to 'pray' to it
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Then the scientist would say, what is god then?
What is energy?
Wait, before you answer, I know you're going to explain what it does to us, etc.. (because obviously you don't really know exactly what it is). But it could be God doing it as well as far as I'm concerned
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That doesn't help anyone further understand the universe.
How does some mysterious energy help anyone understand the universe?
You just keep saying it's more logical than God, but this 'logic' of yours is purely subjective. Aliens, for example, may not find it logical. I don't understand why you think it's more logical than God, but it's anyway just a matter of opinion since there's no proof to explain why logic A is more 'logical' than logic B.
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That is why god is more 'impractical'.
Maybe, as you see it, it may be impractical.
But practical doesn't mean something isn't true either 
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted November 27, 2007 03:48 AM |
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@The death:Quote:
How does 'some mysterious energy' benefit anyone?
I'm not going to explain cosmological theories to you. You can look it up.
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so it's just some kind of belief: you believe in the energy logic stuff. Note: believing doesn't mean to 'pray' to it
No, there's nothing wrong with 'believing' something really. I have no problem with it. I 'believe' that I am alive, and that I exist. I 'believe' that the sun will come up tomorrow.
I don't see a problem with this.
The problem comes with blind faith, and devoting your life "praying" to it. I know that "HA HA HA, believing doesn't equal praying, HA HA HA."
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What is energy?
The capacity to do work.
Seriously though, it's one of the fundamental principles of the universe that is observable, measurable, recordable and reproducable in our every day lives.
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Wait, before you answer, I know you're going to explain what it does to us, etc.. (because obviously you don't really know exactly what it is). But it could be God doing it as well as far as I'm concerned
Right... back to square one.
You can believe the whole world is run by a magic man if that's enough explanation of the universe for you. I hope that makes you content.
But I just thank the lordy that not everyone thinks like you, otherwise we'd still be in the dreamtime.
If you want to argue that god is energy and is making everything move, god is kinematics etc then fine, I agree with you. But then we're no longer talking about a god in any sense, and it is just a desperate, last ditch effort to find 'god' out there.
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How does some mysterious energy help anyone understand the universe?
Dejavu.
Dark energy isn't proven I don't know it's there etc etc etc. It's not dark energy vs god here. But in theory, it helps us to understand the universe in the same way that any discovery helps us to understand the universe... the same way that discovering that the earth rotates around the sun, the same way finding out why ice floats and how magnets work.
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You just keep saying it's more logical than God, but this 'logic' of yours is purely subjective. Aliens, for example, may not find it logical. I don't understand why you think it's more logical than God, but it's anyway just a matter of opinion since there's no proof to explain why logic A is more 'logical' than logic B.
Yep, it's subjective.
Some people might think a giant, talking sandwich is more logical, or glue made out of horses, or a big man in the sky.
So there you have it.
@Mytical:
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Now, we come to the 'heart' of the matter (hehe). The scrotum. External, fragile, and capable of bringing extream pain to a male. Logical to ask why. God also gave us the intelligence to enable us to overcome any obsticle given us. In Eden, yes this was the same, but I do not think we felt pain. Not because of any changes in our biology, but because of God's protection. So, then it was a moot point. While agian, God would know that it could cause..issues, he also is aware of other things. Like for instance it gives the females a chance to protect themselves against unwanted advances. Though not every female is physically weaker then every male, generally there is a height/weight/mass advantage for the males. God just wanted to even the playing field a little.
Maybe this is what you would do if you were a god, but a human can't justify a god's actions.
If they can, then that is the same as saying a god is fallible as a human.
And why not just give men the need for unwanted advances?
Or just NOT make females disadvantage?
And the pain is not the problem with the scrotum. It's that it's a vital organ in reproduction and is so vulnerable that it is just senseless to make it like that.
Also I thought the bible states that no one shall live longer than 120? 
While this might make an interesting topic to speculate on, it really doesn't hold any weight; if god did justify these things the way you have, you prove my point exactly: He is a raving lunatic
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Whereas Evolution, a couple of bad days and the human race would have ended before it started. (Yes I realize it would take some VERY bad days, but things were very harsh you must admit). And Evolution could not 'protect' us like some higher power could.
No, this is the point of natural selection. Alot of death has to occur, so yes, you are right, evolution doesn't protect anything.
Sure, things can go extinct. Alot of species do go extinct, most, if you will. Doesn't mean everything does.
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John says to live above hell.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted November 27, 2007 10:21 AM |
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This is the part where The Death tells us that no one knows why 1+1=2
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John says to live above hell.
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Moonlith
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posted November 27, 2007 01:28 PM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 13:31, 27 Nov 2007.
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Alright, let me bud in then with my own argument for once.
Let us compare two theories.
Theory A is about how god created all life, gave the human race 10 golden rules to live by (even though 1 golden rule states clearly thou shalt not kill while certain texts in Exodus preach about putting homosexuals and beastialists amongst others to death.... You would expect a perfect entity not to make such errors), flooded the entire earth once after he told Noah to build a boat and save every single species by taking two of them on his boat (Let's not even BEGIN to talk about impracticalness here), a theory which lacks both proof and logic. After all, that is what Faith is all about, FAITH, believing. Not proving - those who even try to proof their story is right totally go against what faith is all about anyway Enfin...
Theory B is my own about a possible reason for religion. Of course it didn't just fall out of the air in a book called "bible" which everybody eagerly started to believe. Let is asume we were a bunch of prehistorical retards running around in clothing made out of animalskins. Needless to say, we had no idea about the universe around us, and all we have as knowledge comes through our five senses. Of course it isn't difficult to assume the world is flat, since aside from some hills, it's pointless to believe it is round. It also isn't difficult to asume the sun goes around our flat little disk we live on.
Now I wonder what we would think when we hear our first sudden thunderclap in this mysterious world? Destructive thunder combined with cold rainy weather? A very first earthquake? Would it be crazy to think that might be the doings of a powerfull creature we haven't seen yet? A deity? One that for some reason we pissed off? Storms come and go, so superstition would easily flare high as theories are made about doing something to calm this angry deity. Fact is, a god is born, a deity which we now fear and worship, so as not to have it kill us. And when it becomes angry, we pray, and beg it to spare us... And it does! It's a miracle! It's due to our prayer that is spares us!
Needless to say this would give rise to cruel exploitation of power. Prophets could easily point out someone they dislike and claim he is a cause of God's anger. Execution ensues. Would they enjoy that feeling of power? I would think so.
So what about the bible? A book written by a bunch of monks to keep consistancy, and in my opinion, no more than speculation from their side. As it is, that bible was used as the word of God.
As time passed though, more and more biblical theories got proven wrong. The earth wasn't flat, the sun went around the earth, thunderstorms and other natural disasters were the doings of natural reactions rather than the aggitation of some deity with an anger-problem. But for some reason people still kept believing (indoctrination is a powerfull thing).
Now if I had to compare these two theories and decide on which of those two I find more LOGICAL.... I don't know about you guys but I'd feel more comfortable with Theory B.
Oh sure, you can say I can't proof God doesn't exist, but you can't proof either this guy over here : The Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist. That doesn't stop you from seeing the absurdity in such a theory though.
So why can't you see that in Christianity?
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executor
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posted November 27, 2007 05:34 PM |
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Quote:
The earth wasn't flat, the sun went around the earth
Where is mention of these in the Bible? And also natural disasters weren't thought to be exclusively made by God, just some of them.
The very core idea of Christianity is that Jesus, Son of God and both God and Human himself, descended onto Earth to enable redemption to people and to remind them what is good and what is evil. What is absurd in this?
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Understanding is a three-edged sword.
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Gallow
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posted November 27, 2007 06:02 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
The earth wasn't flat, the sun went around the earth
Where is mention of these in the Bible? And also natural disasters weren't thought to be exclusively made by God, just some of them.
The very core idea of Christianity is that Jesus, Son of God and both God and Human himself, descended onto Earth to enable redemption to people and to remind them what is good and what is evil. What is absurd in this?
Nothing executor,thats beautiful about jesus; happens they cannot understand this,they put excuses like earth was flat and other absurd things,atheist wont be never ever agree with the others.
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Moonlith
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If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted November 27, 2007 07:31 PM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 19:45, 27 Nov 2007.
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Quote:
Quote:
The earth wasn't flat, the sun went around the earth
Where is mention of these in the Bible? And also natural disasters weren't thought to be exclusively made by God, just some of them.
The very core idea of Christianity is that Jesus, Son of God and both God and Human himself, descended onto Earth to enable redemption to people and to remind them what is good and what is evil. What is absurd in this?
If you scrolled up you could read it said THEORY B.
Don't get me wrong, I do see religion has its redeeming qualities, such as its ability to bring people together in harmony. But the same thing can be achieved by social control, less individualization. But I see more misunderstanding, stupidity and outright hatred to those who think differently coming from religion than good things. Such as the woman being blamed for casting us out of a paradise that never existed - we all know the only true paradise is Japan.
And if you're asking what is absurd, then I'd refer you two examples of Noah's little tale, as well of Eva being created out of Adam's rib, just to give something random.
But again (as usual) you guys are evading the question: Which of those two theories sounds more logical? Not taking your dislike towards me into consideration.
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Where is mention of these in the Bible?
No-where ever since it was proven the earth was round. Even monks had to correct God's word where science proved them wrong. Are you saying even back then, about 500+ years ago, the bible said God made the earth round? If there was ONE group that flamed Columbus for his earth-is-round-theory, it were the priests.
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Nothing executor,thats beautiful about jesus; happens they cannot understand this,they put excuses like earth was flat and other absurd things,atheist wont be never ever agree with the others.
I have NO idea what you just said.
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roy-algriffin
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posted November 28, 2007 12:28 AM |
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Alright, let me bud in then with my own argument for once.
Let us compare two theories.
Theory A while certain texts in Exodus preach about putting homosexuals and beastialists amongst others to death.... You would expect a perfect entity not to make such errors), ?
well actually this makes perfect sense. First you give the rule and then you make the exceptions. What if you say you can kill "etc etc etc" and then a new thing pops up? Then theres a loophole there.
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"
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executor
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posted November 28, 2007 12:55 AM |
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Edited by executor at 00:56, 28 Nov 2007.
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And if you're asking what is absurd, then I'd refer you two examples of Noah's little tale, as well of Eva being created out of Adam's rib, just to give something random.
And I do not consider them true, just metaphors(Noah) or rubbish(rib thing) , that got into the Bible by human error, that God has no intention of correcting... for reasons obscure to noone but God.
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Understanding is a three-edged sword.
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