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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted February 11, 2008 07:40 PM |
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Edited by Celfious at 19:58, 11 Feb 2008.
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I thought I had the knowledge lol, now I realize its just more of a common sence thing. 
And to angelito with our pics of tsunami's a few pages back.... Maybe "God" went over board on free will of men, and free "will" of enviroment.. He/she/it allowed imperfections for sure, but no one should be scared of death, other things sure but not death. I am not scared of a tsunami killing me, but I am scared of the pain of drowning or the pain of surviving.
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What are you up to
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted February 11, 2008 07:57 PM |
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Yeah Thank you. Much unnecessary tension grew around that one word.. Of course it is harder to express oneself on metaphysical issues, where mere words seem to be lacking (but they do have that same tendency on issues more mundane too)
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted February 11, 2008 08:49 PM |
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Common sense, says you.
Indoctrination, says I.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted February 12, 2008 02:28 AM |
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Come on Moonlight, why are you deliberately insulting again... he said clearly earlier that he is a deist. Which is in total contrast with indoctrination by believing in ones own experiences - and therefore actually rejecting holy books and the like.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted February 12, 2008 09:45 AM |
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Edited by Azagal at 10:31, 12 Feb 2008.
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Quote:
See my point, Azagal?
Are you kiding me ? Your "point" is written all over any post from some of our good belivers (well I'm one too but well.... in another way since I don't care what the hell everybodyelse thinks about god... geee nobody has to belive in him).
Angelito:
Quote:
No one can KNOW God exists, and on the other hand, no one can KNOW God does not exist. This is why it is called "Faith", "Believe" etc...
Hmm I think you're right if you would change the sentence to "prove" instead of know. Because you can't know that there aren't people who know he exists can you? It's like saying that UFO's (anything unexplainable will do) don't exist but if you work for the government in some super secret project they tell you that they exist as you see it. Understand what I'm trying to say?
If there are people who say they know god exist let them... you just can't prove it as it is nothing they can prove only the keeper of the knowledge can prove it (in this case our friend god)
Moonlith:
Quote:
Trust me, I know I just can't stand it when someone gets smacked right in the face with logic, and they ignore it. THEN proceed to make nonsense posts with non-arguments.
 Those are (almost) the exact same words I used when I had a debate with some people at school... So dude I feel you (really I do) however I don't see how we can aply "logic" to questions of belief (of course this doesn't aply to questions like "creationalism" and stuff since they aren't questions of "belief"... they are more like bad jokes for people who well... nevermind)
@Gallow:
Sorry you're right. I was wrong to tell you something politly and actually hoping that my efforts of explanation wouldn't have been in vain.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted February 12, 2008 10:59 AM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 11:01, 12 Feb 2008.
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Quote:
Come on Moonlight, why are you deliberately insulting again... he said clearly earlier that he is a deist. Which is in total contrast with indoctrination by believing in ones own experiences - and therefore actually rejecting holy books and the like.
I wouldn't say deist either. The guy claims his personal evidense for the existance of God is that the chance of our life on this planet being so "perfectly" (subjective) fitting, that that chance is somehow SMALLER than the chance of some God having created us all (A probability of X, so it can't even be compared).
And when faced with that flaw in his reasoning, he ignores it, claims "us atheists" (im not even an atheist) are not worth discussing with, because he "knows" better.
That's when I feel insulted
@Azagal: That "point" was referring to my post above Gallow's last post
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted February 12, 2008 11:07 AM |
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Right. You've had many points about certain people so I was thinking of the one you made (are making clear) earlier. But well I see the other point as well (not that's it's hard or anything).
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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gallow
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Avenger
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posted February 12, 2008 12:02 PM |
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You think is not "logic" believe in god,now i show whats the illogic here.Evolution for example IF we are supossed to came from a "common ancestor" that lived with other creatures in the SAME environment,same air,same water,same all,in the same planet,THEN why there is so many different species and forms? then if its "evolution" we would have to be all humans or any other thing but all the same in appearence,no ANIMALS at all because they all were in the same conditions of life,its impossible to develop so many forms of life and species-period,thats the illogial "evotution".Plus we,the man or human race we are so complex we have many characteristics that make us different from an ape (example) i dont say they are completely stupid but we can use the REASON,we can study,we can talk,create/destruct,we have organization,we have moral and all what you have in your brain,the apes...well i saw them eating their own excrement and other things..maybe its for their digestion but still,impossible to came from that.One thing is to "learn"(like all we do,even some animals) and that its confused and called "evolution",not extreme changes like in bones or physically form but yes the ability of learn.Then of course,in schools they teach what its "logic" and the teenagers/kids believe it because "The Scientist say"and you cant think different when that all its a lie or wrong "theory"
Facts about evolution:
1). Its only a theory, not a fact
2). Its not infallible. There are are holes in the theory.
3). Its still a sound, logical way to explain the origin of life and its current diversity
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted February 12, 2008 12:16 PM |
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@Gallow, On Evolution:
Quote:
IF we are supossed to came from a "common ancestor" that lived with other creatures in the SAME environment,same air,same water,same all,in the same planet,THEN why there is so many different species and forms?
Because there are many different environments on Earth.
An organism moves to another environment, and over time due to natural selection becomes better suited to that environment and through generations the species has "adapted", becoming different.
I don't see what is wrong with this.
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then if its "evolution" we would have to be all humans or any other thing but all the same in appearence,no ANIMALS at all because they all were in the same conditions of life,its impossible to develop so many forms of life and species-period,thats the illogial
They are not in the same conditions of life.
If two children are born in the same environment say in France and then one of the children moves to China, is it not unreasonable to say that that child's children may have black hair and speak chinese?
Of course this is just a metaphor because it uses just one generation rather than many thousands as in evolution.
Quote:
Plus we,the man or human race we are so complex we have many characteristics that make us different from an ape (example) i dont say they are completely stupid but we can use the REASON,we can study,we can talk,create/destruct,we have organization,we have moral and all what you have in your brain,the apes...well i saw them eating their own excrement and other things..maybe its for their digestion but still,impossible to came from that.
Not impossible.
A baby may eat it's own excrement and then grow up to be a powerful politician. (again this is a metaphor -> evolution acts over generations on the species not on an individual, but I hope you understand what I mean)
Species can progress. Evolve.
Quote:
One thing is to "learn"(like all we do,even some animals) and that its confused and called "evolution",not extreme changes like in bones or physically form but yes the ability of learn.Then of course,in schools they teach what its "logic" and the teenagers/kids believe it because "The Scientist say"and you cant think different when that all its a lie or wrong "theory"
Facts about evolution:
1). Its only a theory, not a fact
Just because it is a theory doesn't mean it is wrong or a lie.
And evolution is a fact, and a theory. Fact and theory
A fact and a theory
Evolution as theory and fact
I hope this helps you to better understand the meaning of the words "theory" and "fact".
"Fact" "Theory"
A "fact" in science is an observation. A "theory" in science is an explanation of the observations.
Therefore evolution and gravity are examples of things that are both facts and theories.
Besides you can think differently. No one forces anyone to believe in evolution.
However many people are forced to believe in a certain religion and even if they aren't there are consequences if they don't for example if both parents are born-again Christians, what will they think if their child does not believe in god? Not an option.
If you believe in the learning but not the physical changes, think of it this way:
You have 10 rats, and 2 of them have an immunity to rat poison due to mutation. So 20% of the population has this genetic immunity.
You use rat poison on them (change the environment, now some rats are better suited to the environment than others) and 8 rats die. Now 100% of the population has this genetic immunity.
This is a change in the allele (genetic) frequencies of the rats due to natural selection and this is PROOF of evolution.
Bible stats that species do not change.
This simple experiment demonstrates that they do.
Imagine this on a larger scale over many many generations with many more mutations and you have evolution.
Quote:
2). Its not infallible. There are are holes in the theory.
Not really...
Please explain a hole in the theory?
Besides, the bible isn't infallible so you can't really take that stance. There are so many contradictions within the bible that I have already mentioned, let alone between other holy books on the same events.
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3). Its still a sound, logical way to explain the origin of life and its current diversity
Yes, exactly. We are agreed. 
It is a sound, logical way to explain the origin of life and it's current diversity.
What's the problem then?
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John says to live above hell.
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gallow
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Avenger
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posted February 12, 2008 12:40 PM |
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Quote:
Because there are many different environments on Earth.
An organism moves to another environment, and over time due to natural selection becomes better suited to that environment and through generations the species has "adapted", becoming different.
I don't see what is wrong with this.
No,we live in the same earth,ground,its impossible to be so much diversity,that its the proof of creation,many different species created by god.
Quote:
They are not in the same conditions of life.
If two children are born in the same environment say in France and then one of the children moves to China, is it not unreasonable to say that that child's children may have black hair and speak chinese?
Of course this is just a metaphor because it uses just one generation rather than many thousands as in evolution.
Some are,the majority and i meant not extreme physically changes,but yes in color/skin/hair and better adaptation yes,but not in bones or something that its very extreme.
Quote:
Not impossible.
A baby may eat it's own excrement and then grow up to be a powerful politician. (again this is a metaphor -> evolution acts over generations on the species not on an individual, but I hope you understand what I mean)
Species can progress. Evolve..
well that was the most pehaps hillarious i ever heard...how he will get the vitamins and necesary nutrition from excrement? and No,by the time we still the same,maybe minimal changes,you confuse evolve by mean great changes in body,but is not that,its the ability we got for learn and thorogh generations we kept them.
Quote:
1). Its only a theory, not a fact
Just because it is a theory doesn't mean it is wrong or a lie.
And evolution is a fact, and a theory. Fact and theory
A fact and a theory
Evolution as theory and fact
I hope this helps you to better understand the meaning of the words "theory" and "fact".
"Fact" "Theory"
A "fact" in science is an observation. A "theory" in science is an explanation of the observations.
Therefore evolution and gravity are examples of things that are both facts and theories.
I know perfectly what means...dont act like teacher now,evolution has big holes and its weak theory.
Quote:
Besides you can think differently. No one forces anyone to believe in evolution.
However many people are forced to believe in a certain religion and even if they aren't there are consequences if they don't for example if both parents are born-again Christians, what will they think if their child does not believe in god? Not an option.
Freewill mentioned a lot of times before..
Quote:
If you believe in the learning but not the physical changes, think of it this way:
You have 10 rats, and 2 of them have an immunity to rat poison due to mutation. So 20% of the population has this genetic immunity.
You use rat poison on them (change the environment, now some rats are better suited to the environment than others) and 8 rats die. Now 100% of the population has this genetic immunity.
This is a change in the allele (genetic) frequencies of the rats due to natural selection and this is PROOF of evolution.
Bible stats that species do not change.
This simple experiment demonstrates that they do.
Imagine this on a larger scale over many many generations with many more mutations and you have evolution..
They didnt cahnge physically,but resistant to the poison only,and they are rats,different from human,again evolution is not great physical changes.(like 8 legs or whatever)
Quote:
2). Its not infallible. There are are holes in the theory.
Not really...
Please explain a hole in the theory?
Besides, the bible isn't infallible so you can't really take that stance. There are so many contradictions within the bible that I have already mentioned, let alone between other holy books on the same events.
Why? i read it if i want,its my choice has much more weight than the fairytale of "evolution" (that is in really adaptation and learn) that its just new,a century ago or a bit more.Did you saw in person the bones of the "ancestors"? no only you readed it from scientist that may work for the goverment,there is al ot of FAKE evidence i found many,and i saw bones just the cap of the skull or a little piece of a skeleton and they say "its the homo bla bla" please...
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted February 12, 2008 12:56 PM |
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Edited by Azagal at 16:09, 12 Feb 2008.
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Thank you TA. I think everybody should be able to understand now (this does not imply that anybody should accept it... only understand). That was great.
EDIT: Guess I was wrong... well some seem like a lost cause. Nevertheless I think your post is wonderful.
EDIT: Just read your post Gallow... you are very unthankful... if you act like this towards people like Moonlith who shows his opinion about you I can understand your reaction (which does not mean I tolerate it... the same applies for Moonlith). But if TA makes a perfectly polite post with the sole intention of makeing something clear in order to help you an reaction like yours is inapropriate and does not show the will to have a discussion (to say the least...)
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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gallow
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Avenger
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posted February 12, 2008 01:02 PM |
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Edited by gallow at 13:07, 12 Feb 2008.
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Quote:
Thank you TA. I think everybody should be able to understand now (this does not imply that anybody should accept it... only understand). That was great.
EDIT: Guess I was wrong... well some seem like a lost caused. Nevertheless I think your post is wonderful.
Can you be more specific..?and what if "some" dont believe it? whats the problem?or im going to die or "hey he dont believe in evolution,to him!" i already said that its not great physical changes.sorry but dont act like trying to show that its not polite what i typed because i just said about whats in true the word evolution,dont start like the others please,and i didnt ask for any help like you said i just type.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted February 12, 2008 01:09 PM |
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Edited by Azagal at 13:14, 12 Feb 2008.
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....I really have to restrain myself...dude you are a persistent one.
what did I say? If you would have read my post probably I'm sure you would have understood.
Quote:
this does not imply that anybody should accept it... only understand
En gang til for prins Knud... TRANSLATION: does not imply that anybody should accept it = does not mean that anybody has to belive in it. I'm not saying anyone who doesn't belive it is stupid. But what's wrong if people DO belive in it? You seem to have a huge problem with it.
EDIT:... You are not inpolite? Quote:
well that was the most pehaps hillarious i ever heard
This is inpolite... no argument there. Come on... be objective that's not the only inpolite thing you said. The whole way you handle his post is inpolite that's merely an example.
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i just said about whats in true the word evolution
No that's what TA did.
Quote:
I just type
You most certainly do.
Besides
Quote:
...how he will get the vitamins and necesary nutrition from excrement?
He did not say we would...
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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gallow
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Avenger
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posted February 12, 2008 01:29 PM |
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Quote:
EDIT:... You are not inpolite? Quote:
well that was the most pehaps hillarious i ever heard
This is inpolite... no argument there. Come on... be objective that's not the only inpolite thing you said. The whole way you handle his post is inpolite that's merely an example.
I am polite,depends of the situation,and here you are saying that i wasnt...showing me like inpolite,thank you..you are starting to offend me azagal.stay on topic.
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i just said about whats in true the word evolution
Quote:
No that's what TA did.
I did too in a different way,whats TA for you,seems its your idol,holy words.
Besides
Quote:
...how he will get the vitamins and necesary nutrition from excrement?
He did not say we would...
Well unless there is some ppl likes to eat his own excrement their problem,but thats was an absurd example i think nothing to do with the point of "evolution" or adaptation.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted February 12, 2008 02:05 PM |
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Can you understand why I voiced my opinion on him, Azagal? Just don't bother, it's not worth it.
@ TA: Good post
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 12, 2008 02:10 PM |
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Quote:
No,we live in the same earth,ground,its impossible to be so much diversity,that its the proof of creation,many different species created by god.
So you don't think that there's enough difference between, say, the tundra and the tropical rain forest to encourage differenation?
Quote:
but not in bones or something that its very extreme.
Tell me, how are changes in skin and changes in bones different? I'll tell you. A change in bones requires more genetic changes to make it useful. But both a change in skin color and bone structure are genetic changes.
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well that was the most pehaps hillarious i ever heard...how he will get the vitamins and necesary nutrition from excrement?
TA never said that excrement is the only thing it eats.
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I know perfectly what means...dont act like teacher now,evolution has big holes and its weak theory.
Let's hear them.
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They didnt cahnge physically,but resistant to the poison only
That is a physical change!
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my choice has much more weight than the fairytale of "evolution"
Oh? Why's that?
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no only you readed it from scientist that may work for the goverment,there is al ot of FAKE evidence i found many,and i saw bones just the cap of the skull or a little piece of a skeleton and they say "its the homo bla bla" please...
Tin-foil hat crowd much? Why are you so paranoid that everyone is trying to "fool" you? Why do you think that the evidence is fake? What do you think the scientists get for getting people to leave religion?
____________
Eccentric Opinion
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gallow
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Avenger
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posted February 12, 2008 02:10 PM |
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Quote:
Can you understand why I voiced my opinion on him, Azagal? Just don't bother, it's not worth it.
Same goes for me,its not worth to discuss with "some" like you said indirectly.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted February 12, 2008 02:41 PM |
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Gallow...
do you need a hug?
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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Frick
Known Hero
and eternal n00b.
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posted February 12, 2008 02:57 PM |
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Edited by Frick at 14:58, 12 Feb 2008.
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Meh, forget it. I quoted the srong thing.
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Hey you, see me, pictures crazy, all the world I've seen before me passing by
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted February 12, 2008 03:03 PM |
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Quote:
1). Its only a theory, not a fact
When i said that god is just a theroy not a fact you went head in head vs me,but you have no problam thinking what you think is just a theory.
By how you judge thouse 'facts'?
by the time they exist? aka chrisnity is 1500 years old..judism is 3500,while pagenism,dates lol..
maybe its by the 'great' deeds that christinans did,the spenish inquistion,the crusades..oh i know i know,maybe its becouse of the nice things said in that good for nothing book! It's becouse of that book and the likes of it war happends and people die. how much wars had eurputed becouse of religion,how much civlazitions destoryed becouse they faced religouse scarlige.
think about it,chrisnity,along with muslim and judaism,is a very ,very,how to say? Hypocriticle system.
and I will say this last time for you,becouse you seem do not want to listen
IM DYSGRAPHIC , my typos are becouse of a disorder,i told you this before and you wont listen .
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types in obscure english
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