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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Is Empowered Implosion Unbalanced/Unbeatable??
Thread: Is Empowered Implosion Unbalanced/Unbeatable?? This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
boogert
boogert

Tavern Dweller
posted July 30, 2006 08:33 PM

Is Empowered Implosion Unbalanced/Unbeatable??

i am posting this on various heroes communities to get some opinions of others on this matter....

i have read many posts with people saying that they think empowered implosion is too weak. i think perhaps they have never had a whole army wiped out by that single spell. i for one think the spell is WAY too powerful! here is an example:

i just fought a friend, my hero was 29 necroplois with 34 defense, expert defense with 15% less damage done from magic attacks, expert luck, with 15% magic resistance. i had on a cloak that gave 50% less damage done from earth spells. altogether with artifacts and skills i had 25% "magic resistance" in other words it is impossible to make epowered implosions any less powerful than what i had!!

my friend was dungeon had a level 30 hero, and DID NOT have the earth slippers that give 50% more damage to earth spells.

i blinded his hydras then proceeded to wipe out his entire army, but before i started to destroy the hydras he took out my tier 6 and tier 7 creaturs, and i had MANY!! was not a weak army. then before i was able to take out his hydra he one by one wiped out every single unit i had with only using empowered implosion. it was the sickets SĪ%# i have ever seen! i mean cmon.....that spell needs to get adjusted. mak,ing matters worse i had "spellringer" as a specialization, so i dont understand why he was able to keep using implosion without me blocking him from using it?? itg was crazy. i had 22 bone dragons and he took them all out with 2 implosions, i had 160 vampires, he took them out in 3, 60 arch liches, 2 implosions, etc. etc.....plain unfair i think. you gotta keep in mind that i had all the right artifacts and skills to counter this. the fact that it didnt work makes me think that a powerful hero with empowered implosion is simply unbeatable!
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Izzachar
Izzachar


Adventuring Hero
posted July 30, 2006 10:37 PM
Edited by Izzachar at 01:11, 31 Jul 2006.

Dungeon skill at expert lv makes them to 50% damage to otherwise resistant creatures.

edit: I read your post again. Firstly having two heroes at lv 29 and 30 facing each other isnt exactly the common scenario if something is overpowered here it cannot be compared to most games where heroes are around lv 15-23 when fighting end battles. Also the armies you had for those lvs seemd pretty wierd. Getting to lv 30 usually takes awhile and 60 archliches should take about 10 weeks so by end of 3rd month same time for those 22 bonedragons I would assume. 160 vampires thats 16 weeks growth. I wonder how come you had such and unbalanced army? And you dont even mention your skelleton archers who are the core of a necro army. Most players usually would start by killing them as you at lv 30 should have several thousands off them. I dont think Ive been lv 30 ever and by end of third month certainly not. Just to get from lv 29 to 30 would require 250000xp thats 100 treasure chests with max experience offerd. If you count that into gold instead it would be around 200k wich you could get 69 spectral dragons from. Im just trying to point out that this seems as a very special scenario. I dont know underwhat conditions you played but they seem not to be normal..

If you had an undersized army for lv 30 its no wonder that spells made the difference in the battle.

Also, defence stat doesnt protect you vs spells so having 34 defence doesnt matter. For additional magic protection necros have boneward -20% damage.

If you didnt have sorcery thats probably what lost you the battle. He makes 3 implosions when you only make 2 raise dead or 2 damage spells.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted July 30, 2006 11:33 PM

Quote:

i just fought a friend, my hero was 29 necroplois with 34 defense, expert defense with 15% less damage done from magic attacks, expert luck, with 15% magic resistance. i had on a cloak that gave 50% less damage done from earth spells. altogether with artifacts and skills i had 25% "magic resistance" in other words it is impossible to make epowered implosions any less powerful than what i had!!


From what I gather the chance for him to miss a spell(due to resistance) was only 15%(resistance from luck).Protection from defence,earth resistance etc can be bypassed by irresistible spells even more so if he had ultimate rank in it.(amulet of the master?)What were the other artifacts,do you remember?

Quote:
mak,ing matters worse i had "spellringer" as a specialization, so i dont understand why he was able to keep using implosion without me blocking him from using it??


Implosion is a high level spell and therefore hard to block.Maybe the fact that you faced a powerful caster too has something to do with it?And btw your friend must have had a lot  of knowledge or an artifact that reduces spell cost.You make it look as if he cast quite a few implosions.
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Betruger
Betruger


Known Hero
empowered mind
posted July 31, 2006 12:55 AM

Well necros have raise dead, which can ressurect something like 1200 hitpoints at hero level 16. Didn't check what it'd be at level 29 but probably more than empowered implosion

According to this site: http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes5/destructive_magic.shtml

Implosion deals 40 + 40*spellpower damage
Empowered of course deals 50% more

while raise dead heals 240 + 30*spellpower hitpoints, more with Life Mastery, and even more with Vladimir

Remember also that empowered implosion costs much more mana than raise dead.
Besides the are other factors, and honestly I think that it's raise dead that's overpowered, not the implosion.

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Izzachar
Izzachar


Adventuring Hero
posted July 31, 2006 01:10 AM

A normal implosion deals about the same damage as one raise dead of similar SP. However the additional 50% makes a huge difference.

And if you dont have vladimir you loose about 6 SP at that lv. Another 200 hp healed.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted July 31, 2006 01:38 AM

Seems more like an easy paced friendly game in an xtra large map.Of the type 'defeat all other enemies first and then have a nice endgame battle'.Even if that's not the case after some months things can get out of control for several reasons:Capturing a couple of well built native towns,getting a unique artifact,large neutral stacks joined or even not getting the spells that complement your strategy.There is always the chance that you did something wrong before things got to that point or left things/situations unexploited-not that you can't lose because your enemy is simply lucky!.From personal experience implosion is not as overpowering as it was but neither is it weak as some claim.It seems finely balanced.
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juventas
juventas


Adventuring Hero
posted July 31, 2006 05:09 AM

His hero got at least 7 turns in based on the number of implosions he got to cast.  That's a lot of turns, meaning he probably had a more significant army than you're letting on.
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Betruger
Betruger


Known Hero
empowered mind
posted July 31, 2006 07:07 AM

Quote:
A normal implosion deals about the same damage as one raise dead of similar SP. However the additional 50% makes a huge difference.

And if you dont have vladimir you loose about 6 SP at that lv. Another 200 hp healed.


Yes but note that raise dead is a level 2 spell while implosion is level 5.
Note also, that what you said is true if both warlock and necro have spellpower of 20.

Then implosion deals 840 damage, and raise dead heals 840 hitpoints.
Of course, this is not taking into accout empowered spells, nor life mastery, nor vladimir's speciality.

The thing is, that in most games you won't even have that high spellpower, I'd say that spellpower 20 is likely to happen in the end of a long game, such as game on dragon pass.

Remember also that empowered spells cost twice as more mana as the usual ones, so warlock will surely be the one who runs out of mana first, and if he doesn't win by then, he's screwed big time.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 31, 2006 08:21 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 08:26, 31 Jul 2006.

Raise dead owns implosion. Ressurection too.

To make implosion strong, you need enlightment, sorcery, destruction.. that's a lot of skills, ultimately giving you only two slots for army-based skills, hence warlock will have a lot weaker army than his opponent's less-magical enemy. I've beated a very strong warlock with inferno and almost no magic, relying mostly on gating, making my already stronger army bigger in like 50%, and I think Necro can easily win too, countering every implo with raise dead. ^_^

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Thanatos
Thanatos


Known Hero
posted July 31, 2006 11:27 AM
Edited by Thanatos at 11:33, 31 Jul 2006.

Quote:
Raise dead owns implosion. Ressurection too.

To make implosion strong, you need enlightment, sorcery, destruction.. that's a lot of skills, ultimately giving you only two slots for army-based skills, hence warlock will have a lot weaker army than his opponent's less-magical enemy. I've beated a very strong warlock with inferno and almost no magic, relying mostly on gating, making my already stronger army bigger in like 50%, and I think Necro can easily win too, countering every implo with raise dead. ^_^


Well Sorcery and Destruction are the key skills of a Warlock anyway (unless you make some kind of weird Summoning magic based WL ) so you can't really see those as skills just to power up Implosion IMO. Whether you pick Enlightenment depends more on your playstyle, if you go the magic route it's very useful (more spellpower and the Intelligence ability to boost your spell points), if you also like a strong might component in your Warlock you're better off with Luck/ Attack/ Defense/ Logistics (for Teleport Assault) for that slot.

edit: to make Raise Dead powerful you also need Summoning Magic, Sorcery and perhaps Enlightenment... that's 3 skills too

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted July 31, 2006 12:04 PM

Quote:
edit: to make Raise Dead powerful you also need Summoning Magic, Sorcery and perhaps Enlightenment... that's 3 skills too


Sorcery you will usually have except if you favour enlightenment over it.Summoning can greatly augment its power but with a warlock's sp it should be more than fine.Plus you would rather cast offensive spells most if not all of the time unless you face a wizard and haven't area effect spells.Then summon elementals and phoenix can come in handy.Phantom forces can be learned by magic insight and you would rather use it on grim raiders and furies so summoning isn't a necessity.
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Thanatos
Thanatos


Known Hero
posted July 31, 2006 12:23 PM

Quote:
Quote:
edit: to make Raise Dead powerful you also need Summoning Magic, Sorcery and perhaps Enlightenment... that's 3 skills too


Sorcery you will usually have except if you favour enlightenment over it.Summoning can greatly augment its power but with a warlock's sp it should be more than fine.Plus you would rather cast offensive spells most if not all of the time unless you face a wizard and haven't area effect spells.Then summon elementals and phoenix can come in handy.Phantom forces can be learned by magic insight and you would rather use it on grim raiders and furies so summoning isn't a necessity.


I was talking about Necromancer with that comment, not Warlock

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 31, 2006 06:16 PM

well, if you go for the magic route, enlightment is IMO a must, giving much needed mana (solving warlock's common headache, the low knowledge) and extra spellpower to make the spells even more deadly.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted July 31, 2006 06:39 PM

Quote:
well, if you go for the magic route, enlightment is IMO a must, giving much needed mana (solving warlock's common headache, the low knowledge) and extra spellpower to make the spells even more deadly.



So you'd rather cast with higher spellpower or to cast faster while reducing your spell cost a bit?The bad thing with intelligence is that there is little mana regeneration as knowledge remains low.For now I'm undecided though I lean towards sorcery.Played only a few games with dungeon apart from the campaign.
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bjorn190
bjorn190


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
posted July 31, 2006 07:13 PM

Wyh chose 1?

Take both sorcery and enlightenment and u cast with high spellpower AND faster  

Problem SOOOOLVED

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juventas
juventas


Adventuring Hero
posted July 31, 2006 08:26 PM

Attack, Leadership and Luck are all extremely tempting skills to choose for the high attack dungeon units, so you may be tempted to throw out enlightenment or sorcery.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted August 01, 2006 09:28 AM

yup, this leads to less powerful implo and no problem with that spell after all

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perman
perman

Tavern Dweller
posted August 03, 2006 09:48 PM

In my opinion, Dungeon with the magic routes are not suited for 'Defeat all enemies and meet for a showdown' against teams like the Undead and Inferno as they thrive on large armies. If you instead rush a bit more, then the magic route can pay off. But Empowered Implosion isn't effective at all when you meet 2k of skeletons.

So unless you on principle play this way, I would suggest rushing a bit more with Dungeon while going for the magic route with both Enlightenment and Sorcery, then your Implosions (and Meteor Shower which I personally prefer since if you hit only 2 units or probably more with it you will kill more hitpoints than an implosion will) will become powerful.

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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted August 04, 2006 07:48 AM

Empowered implosion is good as it is... not overpowered and not underpowered ! The Dungeon player will have a hard time against a Necropolis and Vladimir, and here the only solution is Empowered Implosion, but it might not be enough... because it costs so much mana compared to raise dead.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted August 04, 2006 08:47 AM

and he will have a hard time against inferno - with all those familiars sucking his mana, then the gated ones... In the end he can cast only one  or two spells and it's over. o_O

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