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| Thread: To kill or not to kill... |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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Lith-Maethor
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posted January 13, 2007 09:27 PM |
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To kill or not to kill...
In order to keep the abortion thread on track and because this topic deserves more, here is a thread to discuss the death penalty, the right to kill someone or lack thereof ...we give you this, because you actually demanded it!
Ecoris started it with:
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Most murderers are normal people like you and I that just happen to be pushed to the limit. While they usually have some mental flaws they could have lived on without ever doing anything criminal and contributed to society.
I am against death penalty and could think of many reasons, but I will quote Gandalf: Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them?
Aculias replied:
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More like the other way around. Totally disagree. There are alot more good people out there then you think. Ignorance. Maybe we all are in someway.
I butt in with:
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the quote above is pretty much the reason behind my attitude towards killing... but it was only after reading LotR that i had the words to describe it...
and Aculias continues:
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Yes Lith that quote mentioned by Gandalf & Ecoris. Religion related. Otherwise who are any person who judges who deserves death & who deserves life?
and I ask:
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how on (Middle) Earth is that quote religion related???
of course Aculias responds:
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MANY who live deserves death. SOME that live deserves to live. The Q is why people would think that. Who are we to judge who DESERVES to die & live?
my response to that is simply "...their peers"
Ecoris returns with:
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You must remember that LoTR takes place in a more black/white world with a more clear distinction between good and evil. Therefore the term 'deserve death' would make more sense, but it is still subjective.
In the real world I don't think anyone deserves death (though I am unsure whether or not I find the term 'deserve death' meaningful at all).
and Aculias follows with:
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I think it's also true that people tend to believe in stuff.
The environment of certain catagories changes the young mind.
Yea i know I am talking in riddles probally so I will set an example.
Gangster rap.
They talk about killing & how good it is to treat women bad & certain words they say. Whats up my niga etc.
Beavis & Butthead is another example
The young mind picks up on what they say & new slang they talk about.
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Ted
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posted January 13, 2007 10:06 PM |
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eh, when i get asked these questions i consult the Bible *Holy music in background
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an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth
but their are cases like Man slater, but i will stick with my answer
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Binabik
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posted January 13, 2007 10:28 PM |
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The bible also says "do not kill".
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Lith-Maethor
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posted January 13, 2007 10:29 PM |
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hmmm...
i believe the term you seek is manslaughter?
and as a wise man once said... an eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind... oh yeah, he was not christian... not that religion should play a part in this
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Lord_Woock
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posted January 13, 2007 10:30 PM |
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Therefore a Jew should consult the Old Testament, while a Christian should follow the New one.
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Aculias
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posted January 13, 2007 11:24 PM |
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Lith believes in the bunny.
Therefore killing is good.
He wants to kill everyone!
Easter is good!
The bunny is his pal!
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Ecoris
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posted January 13, 2007 11:27 PM |
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Quote:
not that religion should play a part in this
Not that I'm religious my self, but since religions include moral codices I do not see why they should be left out. After all, your moral beliefs must have some origin.
While I might not describe myself as a christian, christian thinking has undoubtly played a more important role than I know in forming my views of right and wrong. That and the philosophers of ancient Greece I guess.
I find the use of death penalty barbaric.
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Aculias
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posted January 13, 2007 11:30 PM |
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Point of my bickering is that Religion plays a role in almost everythang in life.
From peoples action, to thier beliefs on how stuff should be done.
Since you dont believe in religion Lith, you have a harder time comprehending about peoples beliefs.
More then that you tend to talk smack & make fun of people who truly believe.
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Lith-Maethor
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posted January 13, 2007 11:53 PM |
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le sigh...
Aculias... simply put, its unbelievably hard for me not to talk smack when you post stuff like "Lith believes in the bunny" ...not to mention the rest of that post... i have clearly stated i am against any kind of death penalty, since we don't have the power to restore life (despite popular belief, innocent people HAVE been sentenced to death)
yes, religion does play a serious role in our lives, whether we believe or not... however, its the philosophy, not the dogma, that does that ...saying "you can't kill that man cause Jebus told me its wrong" has as much validity as "the devil made me do it" or "the stork brought the baby home" you may believe it is so, but there is no way to prove it
ecoris, my personal beliefs are closer to liberal buddhism than christian point of view (not that the two are THAT different, mind you) and by definition almost, to those of my ancestors (that would be ancient greeks) ...and they are such, both due to my upbringing and a personal quest
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Ecoris
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posted January 14, 2007 12:22 AM |
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I do not know a lot (or even just a little) about religions. While the ten commandments only seem to have the (implicit) reason 'such is the will of God' the matter is more complicated. One may believe that they have simply arisen from need of laws, and even though people may have accepted them for just that reason the argument 'such is the will of God' is much better if people believe in the god.
But even one who looked upon it like this would reckon that a religion is not just a matter of whether there exists some devine being or not; a religion also contains an 'attitude' to life. The reasons for right and wrong do not only consist of references to some god's will. At least the new testament has many descriptions of Jesus' doings and his parables, which have a lot of philosophical content. It is interesting that God plays a very very little role compared to the old testament.
In the old testament God would say (or write) "you shall not murder" while in the new testament we would likely be presented with some parable instead.
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Binabik
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posted January 14, 2007 12:28 AM |
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Edited by Binabik at 00:30, 14 Jan 2007.
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To me, religious beliefs and morale beliefs are very close to the same thing. In the end, the question of "to kill or not to kill" comes down to one thing. It comes down to belief. We can throw around all kinds of logical arguments. But the logic is nothing more than an attempt to put belief into words. Either we believe it is ok, or we don't. And either way, I call it religion.
The question is "to kill or not to kill?". If that was all there was to this thread it could have been a poll with yes/no answers. But there is an implied question of "why?". If the answer to the question "why do you believe that?" is religion or church, then it's a perfectly legitimate answer.
For the record, I don't believe in capital punishment....with one exception, if the person actually wants to die. Um, I just thought of another exception, but I won't go into that now.
I believe the way I do simply because that's what I believe, that's the way I "feel" about it.
@Lith: I wrote this before you posted. Yea, morals, religion, church, dogma, etc are semantics that tend to get in the way of this type of discussion. I already said that morals and religion are very close to the same thing IMO. Also church and dogma are very close to the same IMO. But everyone has their own definitions of these things. This is why I try to stay away from any religious references because of all the connotations that go along with it.
I look at it like there is morale belief and the pure religion. At some point man tries to put these abstract ideas into words. The problem lies with the people who say "we put it into words, therefore we are the authority?" And history makes it clear where that leads.
edit: I just saw your post also Ecoris. I'd like to stay and play, but I really need to leave.
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Aculias
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posted January 14, 2007 01:45 AM |
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Like I stated in the religion thread awhile back.
It;s the fear that keeps people in check.
it can also work in a good way to keep crime at a more minimum as well as fear they have to be good or else.
The 10 commandments simply puts what is good & what you have to follow.
I believe those commandments is a hugh part of why people believe in what is good & what is bad in a person.
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william
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LummoxLewis
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posted January 14, 2007 03:34 AM |
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We do not have the power to restore life, that is true, but not everyone believes in the bible.
I am a christian or catholic whatever, I believe in some things in the bible but not all.
Some things I do not believe is the adam and eve story, that would technically mean that we are all brother's and sister's I think, and I find that hard to believe.
Now onto the Death Penalty.
I think in some cases, the Death Penalty is the good thing to do, but bad in other's.
If for example I was to kill thousands of people,millions even, and I recieved the Death Penalty, then that might be right in some ways and not in other ways.
Other possible punishment's I could have recieved could have been life behind bars.
Death Penalty, well not everyone believes that would be the best way to go, but in some circumstnaces it is the only thing to do.
Recently with Saddam Hussein, he recieved the Death Penalty, and I think that was the right thing to do, just my opinion, but not even the death penalty can reverse the things that he did to so many families and people that he killed, or was the cause of.
Sometimes life behind bars could be a death sentence, because some people have been known to kill themselves in jail, because they wouldn't want to stay behind bars for the rest of their life.
Death penalty is correct in some ways, but not in other's, other more suitable punishements could be made.
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mvassilev
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posted January 14, 2007 03:51 AM |
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Here's my opinion on the death penalty. I see nothing wrong with it, but it's wasting perfectly good people. "But they are murderers!" you might exclaim. All the better. Let us consider a field where murder would not be a hinderance: the military. I suggest that every country should have two seperate groups of military: a well-equipped volounteer one, and a criminal one. Hardened criminals, including murderers, would be drafted into the armed forces, and be brutally forced to serve in a military branch with other criminals. This branch would undertake all of the missions that are likely to have high casualties. Of course, not all hardened criminals would be drafted into the military. I suggest that some of them could be sold as slaves. Thus, I suggest abolishing "life in prison" per se. Instead, we could have some of the people who would normally get life in prison be the slaves of the government. Essentially, it would be the same, but the government would not have to respect their rights in any way. Thus, I suggest the following system:
1. For a very light crime: small fine.
2. For a light crime: medium fine or several days in jail.
3. For a medium crime: high fine or several months in jail.
4. For a heavy crime: high fine and/or several years in jail/slavery.
5. For a very heavy crime (i. e. murder): very high fine and temporary draft into military OR many years of slavery.
6. For an extremely heavy crime (i. e. mass murder): permenant slavery or draft into military.
This is only one part of my law proposal.
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william
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LummoxLewis
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posted January 14, 2007 03:55 AM |
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Aha Mvass I agree with you on some things and disagree on other's.
I disagree with you the use of slaves.
No human should be used for slavery, but that is just my opinion.
Now with your criminals being put into the army/military whatever you want to call it, that might be useful, since they could be helping there country, instead of doing useless things like killing people, there is no use in the killing of another person, but sometimes it must be done.
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Consis
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posted January 14, 2007 05:15 AM |
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Death
This is a subject bereft of imagination. Leaving nothing to it . . . I would understand if some young Heroes Community member's parent emailed Valeriy about the content of this thread. Children under the age of 16 should not read this thread. They will not understand.
~Death is inescapably part of what defines our existence. We exist and then we cease to exist. We are and then we are not. How it shapes our world . . . no man or woman can fully comprehend. It could be for better or worse and I strongly suspect that there are some who actually believe they can accurately predict which. I think we as a species do not know. To some our existence is simple and to others our existence is complex. One can never truly be sure if taking a person's life will be for the better or worse. Take the death of Saddam Hussein for example, how do we know if he wasn't the only thing suppressing some far greater monstrous human with much less regard for humanity than even he? In any society there are an infinite number of variables that we only pretend to hope to be able to possibly perceive. And so we are flawed infants learning to walk upright. Our eyes have only just begun to rise above the outer atmosphere of our planet. And yet through of all history and even today we ourselves want to go on living despite all odds. For some it is a choice and for others it is a result. Do any of us truly know exactly what we're supposed to do in this world?
I say we don't. I also say that we have a right to defend ourselves from perceived immediate threats. And to this I say reason, logic, and a love for humanity are the only things that can be applied to a rational judgment in such a case. What ever God has planned will be what ever it will be. I say we should live and that we should not seek to take the life of another. What if someone attempts to take life from you? Do you not have the right defend yourself? What gives you the right? What gives your attacker the right? If he has no right to take your life, who then will stop him? Will it be you? Will you wait for someone else to decide? If a person is murdered then who will decide to stop the murderer? Will you declare that all life is precious and let the murderer continue killing others? It is a choice. You may choose what you wish. Thus we are compelled to make these kinds of choices because our mothers passed down to us their most sacred love for creation. To them we owe our compassion. To our fathers we owe our actionable loyalty to the thing we pledge our service to . . . whether it be a person, place, thing, philosophy, or God.
That is what I believe.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted January 14, 2007 07:44 AM |
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eh, when i get asked these questions i consult the Bible *Holy music in background
Quote:
an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth
to quote ghandi, "An eye for an eye leaves us all blind."
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Lith-Maethor
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posted January 14, 2007 07:52 AM |
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crime and punishment...
Aculias:
most of the "ten commandments" are indeed sound advice and if people stick to them, we will live in a near perfect world ...the rest of them, are just god's will towards his worshipers and have little to do with morality (its simply "do as i say, because i say it") ...throughout the bible there are examples of god's will we would not excuse even in the case of the worst criminal (genocide, ethnic cleansing, invasions, infanticide, etc) and conveniently enough, were just the things needed to help the worshipers of god ...as for fear being what keeps people in check... thats something from Machiavelli's "The Prince" not something i'd expect to hear in defense of a loving Father
william:
if you pick and choose, you may be christian, but you are not a catholic... the very reason there are so many different flavours of christianity (or any other religion and philosophy, for that matter), is that people pick and choose what to believe in and what to discard... this is something that is well within your right to do... we all do it to an extend
mvassilev:
hmmm... criminal based military? while you ARE on the right track (killing criminals is wasting perfectly "good" people) your plan has one main flaw... why would we want an individual that has criminal tendencies to carry a gun and on top of that receive training to be even deadlier? its like using a rabid wolf to guard the sheep ...i am sure you can see just where that may go wrong, right? ...turning a criminal into a killing machine is not my idea of an intelligent solution
Consis:
you are right, younger people may not understand... immature people may not understand either... but i'd like to think that most realize the Other Side is a part of HC that goes beyond rest ...the topics discussed are far more ...delicate (rather explosive, perhaps) and putting a disclaimer of that is like putting a "do not stop the blade with your hands" on a chainsaw... needed for some, sure, but ultimately redundant for those that would participate
yes, you do have a right to defend yourself ...defending yourself however, has nothing to do with sentencing someone to death (even one such as Saddam) ...that is pure revenge... you think Saddam was hanged for his crimes? ...no, he was hanged because the public wanted blood, because it was convenient to kill him ...it also created a martyr, in the eyes of his followers ...in the end, not so effective
i fail to see how declaring that all life is precious, is letting the murderer continue killing others (though that certainly seems to be the case, if we follow mvassilev's suggestion) ...when i say all life is precious, i mean ALL life ...yes, if i am forced to, i will kill (to save my loved ones, most likely) but it will be a last resort thing ...if i am able to find a way to protect those i care about without killing someone, i will choose it, no matter how much harder
but here, let me give a suggestion... instead of creating a "criminal military" why don't we use criminals as cheap labor? the state provides shelter and food (prison, of course) but the criminals are forced to work on whatever is needed, even in jobs that have higher risk ...as far as i know, there are workshops in some prisons and criminals are forced to work there ...this solves a few problems the way i see it ...first of all, nobody has to die ...second, prison time gives something back to the community, even if the criminal does not repent for his crimes ...and third, prisons ultimately require less money to run, so we can use the extra money where its really needed
TitaniumAlloy:
exactly, but you will find i already quoted ghandi 
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mvassilev
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posted January 14, 2007 03:49 PM |
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Quote:
mvassilev:
hmmm... criminal based military? while you ARE on the right track (killing criminals is wasting perfectly "good" people) your plan has one main flaw... why would we want an individual that has criminal tendencies to carry a gun and on top of that receive training to be even deadlier? its like using a rabid wolf to guard the sheep ...i am sure you can see just where that may go wrong, right? ...turning a criminal into a killing machine is not my idea of an intelligent solution
They would be controlled brutally. They would be prevented from escaping or rebelling by, say, planting explosives inside their heads. If they escape, just press the button and they will die.
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but here, let me give a suggestion... instead of creating a "criminal military" why don't we use criminals as cheap labor? the state provides shelter and food (prison, of course) but the criminals are forced to work on whatever is needed, even in jobs that have higher risk ...as far as i know, there are workshops in some prisons and criminals are forced to work there ...this solves a few problems the way i see it ...first of all, nobody has to die ...second, prison time gives something back to the community, even if the criminal does not repent for his crimes ...and third, prisons ultimately require less money to run, so we can use the extra money where its really needed
Yes. I suggested this as well. But I suggested using them as slaves: the ultimate cheap labor.
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Lith-Maethor
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posted January 14, 2007 04:03 PM |
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mvassilev
there is a simple reason i disagree with you ...i believe that no matter what, all people are equal ...punishing someone for a crime is one thing ...putting aside all human rights to do so, is the beginning of a VERY dangerous path...
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