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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Alternatives comparison
Thread: Alternatives comparison This thread is 24 pages long: 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 ... 10 20 24 · «PREV / NEXT»
executor
executor


Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
posted June 03, 2007 10:34 PM

@Doomforge
At least we agree to some extent (cost thing).
And yes, I think that drawback should be able to be undone, but not so easily. F.eg if you upgraded 2 weeks into upg A, you can still upgrade next weeks into upg B, if the situation has changed. That is fair for me, as your choices are somewhat reversable, yet not at will, and it costs you (in creatures). And due to this fact, HoMM 4 problem (which I found a problem ONLY due to imbalanced alternatives), would not return.
I hope that additional cost for retraining will be high enough to prevent doing it at will, this should make me satisfied .

On the issue of linear SP, the SP per druid could be like 0.4, so there won't be any problem. And there's Alc's thread somewhere on this topic. Non-linear SP for creatures is worst non-bug problem (IMO) in HoMM 5.
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Understanding is a three-edged sword.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted June 03, 2007 11:08 PM

I don't think so

imagine a scenario like that:

nival makes the spellpower growth linear. The casters are strong, as the game progresses, stronger and stronger, because the heroes grow in def and such, while the spells ignore it. To prevent spellcasters from completely murdering level 6-7 units, nival makes the spell damage weak, which results in terrible performance against lower tier units (which tend to have more overall hp, but lower effective HP due to pathetic def) and a decent performance against level 7 units.. which is exactly the thing that we have now.

Conclusion? it wouldn't change much.

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The_Mysterious
The_Mysterious


Adventuring Hero
posted June 04, 2007 12:34 AM

Hmmm, actually pixies are not needed, it could that Sprites are the first unit and when upgraded, turns into Dryads.
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executor
executor


Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
posted June 04, 2007 02:54 PM

Quote:
I don't think so

imagine a scenario like that:

nival makes the spellpower growth linear. The casters are strong, as the game progresses, stronger and stronger, because the heroes grow in def and such, while the spells ignore it. To prevent spellcasters from completely murdering level 6-7 units, nival makes the spell damage weak, which results in terrible performance against lower tier units (which tend to have more overall hp, but lower effective HP due to pathetic def) and a decent performance against level 7 units.. which is exactly the thing that we have now.

Conclusion? it wouldn't change much.


It will, as spellcasters' performance would not depend that much on the current moment of the game. They'd be as effective in ealry- as in mid- and lategame. And that's what I want.
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Understanding is a three-edged sword.

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radar
radar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
posted June 04, 2007 02:57 PM

anyway spirites' wasp swarm is ridicolous

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted June 04, 2007 02:59 PM

it has to be unless we want unstoppable sprite rushes

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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted June 04, 2007 03:43 PM

Quote:
Quote:
This will be good. Aside from retarded names (Acidic Hydra wtf?) this is only going to further increase the strategic options, and rather than choosing the overall better unit, players will have to choose what kind of units they are going to need against the TYPE of enemies they are facing, as I reckon one upgrade would work better against a certain faction than the other.

Also it will make it more difficult to expect what other players might have in their armies. Before, if you knew the faction, you knew the creatures it had.

In general I find this idea of adding an alternative upgrade a grand improvement in the Heroes series.


yea but it rlly doesn't matter which upgrad path u chose for each unit, cuz u can just change it to other upgrade anytime - perhaps even for free! And even if we had to pay, it woudl still be not as strategically involved at all compared to the possibilities had they made it so we could only choose one upgrade for each unit, WITHOUT any switch.... which would kinda morph the good aspect of Heroes IV into Heroes III... unfortunately Nival doesn't seem to wanna rlly seize the chance to improve on the strategic based side of the series


I'm not sure how they're gonna do it. Would seem fair to me if you can re-build the other upgrade (Still pay the price or perhaps even pay for demolition), and re-upgrade the units (perhaps double price?)

Or perhaps they're gonna give free options wether you want it to be able to change ot nor in-game.

I strongly resent the idea they're gonna make it free xD

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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted June 04, 2007 03:45 PM

Quote:
it has to be unless we want unstoppable sprite rushes


Which actually sounds at least a bit fair considering Sylvan does a slow job at building up.

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Deathy
Deathy


Known Hero
Angels Galore
posted June 06, 2007 12:02 AM

even tho this topic isn't updated yet about it, i gotta say that the new Horror Dragons look already pretty damn weak. loss of defense and HP just for little attack power and not so great sounding ability? i mean if it reduces morale or/and luck like many people are guessing, how much is it going to reduce? 1 point each? if it's like that then ill stick to the spectrals. atleast cursed enemies would be doing much less damage, reducing one point of luck and morale wouldn't REALLY show at all. of course it's much different story if they reduce it ALOT. tho gotta admit that these things are cheap.

banshees also, alot attack power lost, and they were main damagers too. that new skill must be alot better than just some banshee howl type morale reducer.(i know banshee howl does more but the unit might not )

well i guess ill see what these new abilities can offer but it's little disappointing that Nival didn't take the chance to give aging to atleast one of the undead units.
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radar
radar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
posted June 06, 2007 09:18 AM

I was going to make anlisis comparing old upgrades but since sfidanza introduced AoH tables with new alternate upgrades stats its not needed anymore

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watcher83
watcher83


Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
posted June 06, 2007 10:50 AM

I think reducing the cost of tier 7 is good but not like this, now the horror dragon is only 100gold more expensive than the wraith.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted June 06, 2007 10:54 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 10:54, 06 Jun 2007.

It's ok, you get what you pay for..

I hope they fixed those ridiculous dwelling costs.

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dreddy
dreddy


Hired Hero
HC frosh
posted June 06, 2007 12:43 PM
Edited by dreddy at 13:37, 06 Jun 2007.

OK, the Necro alt. upgrades are out. The following is a summary.

1. Skeleton Archer vs. Skeleton Warrior
Relative to the old upgrade, the new one has:
+ 1 attack;
+ 1 avg. damage;
- 1 HP;
- "Shooter" ability;
+ "25% magic-proof" ability: sounds straightforward, Destructive Spells do 75% damage;
+ "Large Shield" ability: 50% from ranged attacks.

Verdict: I dunno.. SkellyArchers help creeping a lot early-game, plus I'm still convinced the effective use of magic and ranged attacks is the key most of the time.. But then again, given that all Necromacers have "Raise Dead" from the beginning, this creature can still be used for creeping early on, athough its low speed (4) still suits an archer more than a melee unit. I'm undecided, but given that Necros have one more SUPERB high-lvl. shooter Lich, whose alt. upgrade (see below) doesn't look too good without the shooting ability and that the new Necromancy is more likely to give a variety army in the long run rather than zounds of Skellys as before, I'd try out the new warrior.

2. Plague Zombie vs. Disease Zombie
Relative to the old upgrade, the new one has:
+ 1 defense;
- 1 minimum damage;
+ 2 HP;
+ 5 gold savings per unit;
- "Weaking Strike" ability;
+ "Weakening Aura" ability.

Well, there isn't much contest here: the new Zombie is better than the old one save for the Weakening Strike ability, but given its still horrible init of 7, it ain't gonna trigger too often. + 2 HP is more than welcome and would actually make a BETTER combo with SkellyArchers rather than with Warriors: more HP + aura -> more support/meatshield for fragile archers + discouraging enemy attacks with the aura. Even without this promising low-level combo, ...

Verdict: ...the new Zombie seems much better

3. Spectre vs. PoltergAyst
Relative to the old upgrade, the new one has:
+ 2 attack;
+ 1 defense;
+ 1 speed;
- 2 HP;
- "Mana Drain" ability;
+ "Ammo Steal" ability.

Nice one. If Ammo Steal steals shots regardless of whether the hero does or doesn't have an Ammo Cart, this could be a great upgrade. Note how the increased stats (esp. + 1 speed, allowing it to reach shooters faster) reflect this new creature's more offensive approach. HOWEVER, -2 HP puts the Poltergeist’s health at the same level as Plague Zombie’s, so it may be wiped out with Destructive spells before it wreaks too much havoc.
Verdict: Obviously, Poltergeist’s special may shine against armies relying on archers. Even though the stats increase is nice, - 2 HP is a big drawback and coupled with the retained “Incorporeal” ability, the Poltergeists become the Destructive spells’ first target. Undecided for now.

4. Vampire Lord vs. Nosferatu
Relative to the old upgrade, the new one has:
- 2 minimum and maximum damage;
+ 5 HP;
- 30 gold savings [increased cost] per unit;
- “No Enemy Retaliation” ability ;
+ “Sleeping Strike” ability: make the target skip a turn or a few or decrease init? Will it trigger all the time or just sometimes?

Verdict: We’ve got a moderate HP upgrade and a new mysterious ability to make up for a superb no-retal., slightly increased price and quite a big damage output decrease.. Unless the sleeping strike is really gonna be making the target skip a turn or something equally scary, maybe cut init. (even if triggered occasionally), I’d stick with the good old Lords

5. Archlich vs. Lich Master (lame name, btw )
Relative to the old upgrade, the new one has:
+ 1 attack;
+ 3 defense;
+ 1 minimum damage;
+ 1 speed;
+ 15 HP;
+ 2 mana;
- “Shooter”/”Death Cloud” abilities;
- Decay and Suffering spells;
+ Raise Dead spell.

Maybe it’s just me, but I just can’t imagine a melee Lich. The new Lich has many stats increases, and most notably, + 15 HP so it would be a good melee fighter + caster if not for the same lame 4 speed. Plus, Raise Dead will arguably be more useful, especially given that those dudes will be able to cast it twice, since a Necromancer spends most of his time throwing the full Dark Magic potential at you anyways. The new lich might work, we’ll see. It will depend mostly on the mastery/effective SP of its Raise Dead. If it’s decent, it will be a good support unit to have.
Verdict: Once again, undecided for now.

6. Banshee vs. Wraith
Relative to the old upgrade, the new one has:
- 3 attack;
- 1 defense;
- 3 minimum and maximum damage;
+ 10 HP;
+ 100 gold savings;
- “Harm Touch” special;
+ “Death Wail” ability.
Seeing how the new Wraith has many decreased stats and costs 100g less, the new ability should be pretty good, my guess is debuffing the target or placing a curse IN ADDITION to normal attack. In reality though, one may only wonder what it is, so without being too original here,…

Verdict:undecided yet, depends on the special.

7. Horror Dragon vs. Spectral Dragon
Relative to the old upgrade, the new one has:
- 1 attack;
- 1 defense;
+ 2 minimum, + 1 maximum damage;
- 10 HP;
+ 1000g savings per unit!;
- “Weakening strike” replaced with “Sorrow strike”.
Well, judging by the decreased stats, sorrow strike, as many ppl have guessed, is likely to cast Sorrow, decreasing morale and luck. It’s not too useful, but those retarded-looking dragons are 100g and 1 mercury more expensive than Wraiths, LOL. As Doomforge mentioned, you get what you paid for. However, note that the TotE alt. upgrades tendency is cutting the cost of lvl. 7 units severely so far, so it may be nothing special.

Verdict: My money is on Sorrow dragon due primarily to its lower cost.

P.S. Is it just me or does the new pinkish color seem COMPLETELY out of place as opposed to the toxic green in the city of the dead? What.the.hell are those two pinky stars for Horror Dragon's eyes?! It's more like a Fairy Dragon now.
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“... so when the devil wants to dance with you, you’d better say “never”, because the dance with the devil might last you forever.” /Immortal Technique/

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watcher83
watcher83


Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
posted June 06, 2007 01:50 PM

I agree with most of what dreddy said except for lichmaster which is almost useless compared to the arch lich. No shots, no death cloud, different but not better overall spells. The better stats do not help since its speed is awful, and most likely enemies will dispose of them from afar.
Also I think you got it wrong, Nosferatu has -2 min dam but has +2 max dam, so what remains is sleeping strike vs no enemy ret; my money is on the vampire lord.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted June 06, 2007 03:06 PM

Quote:
P.S. Is it just me or does the new pinkish color seem COMPLETELY out of place as opposed to the toxic green in the city of the dead? What.the.hell are those two pinky stars for Horror Dragon's eyes?! It's more like a Fairy Dragon now.


Amen to that!!!

Anyway, there is a slight flaw in your analysis - you say the Vampire has -2 Min and Max damage, that is not true, it does in fact have -2 min damage but +2 max damage, to yield the same average damage.

Also, the 1000 Gold savings on Dragon is an artifact of the new reduced level 7 costs, and should not be taken into consideration when comparing the two units.


With regard to the colours, can't help uloading these:


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What will happen now?

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted June 06, 2007 03:10 PM

No way, pink+black looks cool. Or have I played too much imoen romance mod?

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted June 06, 2007 03:14 PM

Ahh so much better...
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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted June 07, 2007 07:26 PM
Edited by ZombieLord at 19:26, 07 Jun 2007.

Quote:
I agree with most of what dreddy said except for lichmaster which is almost useless compared to the arch lich. No shots, no death cloud, different but not better overall spells.

I don't know why you say the ArchLich is good with its shooting ability... in fact, it SUCKS because it's a large creature and very easy to block, forcing it to deal a pathetic half damage

Oh, and Alc, your textures are MUCH better

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted June 07, 2007 07:29 PM

Now the Banshee looks a lot like the Wraith

You could've used a darker, deeper color for blue

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watcher83
watcher83


Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
posted June 07, 2007 10:35 PM

I'll just express my opinion about all the alternates so far (comparing them with the looks/aspect of the classics):

*=lowest value;*****=highest value

dryad - ***
blade singer - ***
sharpshooter - ***
high druid - **
white unicorn - **
anger treant - ***
rainbow dragon - *
stalker - *****
blood witch - **
centaur captain - ***
black rider - ***
acidic hydra - **
shadow mistress - ****
red dragon - *
quasit - *
horned leaper - ***
firebreather hound - *
succubus seducer - ***
hellmare - ***
pit spawn - ***
archdemon - ***
skeleton warrior - *****
disease zombie - **
poltergeist - *
nosferatu - ***
lich master - *
banshee - *****
horror dragon - *

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