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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Heroes 5 HoF Strategy: Playing Fortress Faction
Thread: Heroes 5 HoF Strategy: Playing Fortress Faction This thread is 13 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 · NEXT»
TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted November 21, 2006 05:52 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 00:05, 09 Oct 2007.

Heroes 5 HoF Strategy: Playing Fortress Faction

Moderators note: I have hi-jacked this thread to be part of the forum strategy-discussion thread group.

This thread is for discussing the strategy for playing Fortress in Heroes 5 - Hammers of Fate.

To discuss Fortress heroes in duel mode, go to Runemages in Duels topic.

Info at AOH: Heroes | Buildings | Creatures | Growth Chart | Skills | Specialties

Strategy Thread Group: Haven | Inferno | Necropolis | Dungeon | Sylvan | Academy | Fortress | Stronghold






Now the Fortress is here... It seems like a fine town to me ! Very defensive! duh .

I didn't have much time to play it, so I can't share too much with you for now! From my experience though it seems the creatures do low to very low damage, but they also die very very hard... I don't know what primary skills the hero is developing mostly, so I would like to hear about that! What I like about this town is the creature abilities ... they have the best abilities in the game probably . So there is one thing I can say for sure : get LUCK + Soldier's Luck cause it is a must have ! Also split the Skirms into as many stacks as possible , but be carreful with splitting, make those stacks big enough to kill one unit! Once this is acomplished, all the walkers will have big troubles reaching you, cause with Soldier's Luck you have almost a 50% chance to cripple them on the way ! Also Attack+ Battle Frenzy is nice

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emilsn
emilsn


Legendary Hero
posted November 21, 2006 06:42 PM

The best tactic i have so far is: get Defense with them and then get preparation! So great to knock the enemies in the head and then hit! but then pay back time!!

and i guess that mentoring is pretty good in campaign! Very good.. But havent played this so much yet! so ill see if i find out of more good things...

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Alone in the Forest
posted November 21, 2006 08:23 PM
Edited by Elvin at 20:29, 21 Nov 2006.

The primary skills are defence and warmachines as I suspected.Warmachines are crazy with dwarves!Strangely,before seeing the requirements I thought of what a combo def,destr,log and warmachines would make!Didn't know they were needed for ultimate!
Especially swift mind that let's you cast first with your hero Too bad it's rare-I'll probably get luck instead.Just because I felt damage was kinda low,I thought destructive and warmachines would boost it.Same for defence's preparation.
Seeing as gems are needed,upg the magic and runic guild may have to wait a bit so might skills seem to be a necessity.JJ said the resource requirements will change,reducing gems and increasing crystal so it should be smoother in 2.1.We'll see.

Edit:
Btw swift mind and mass haste seem a good pair
____________
Mind the gap between your mind and reality.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted November 21, 2006 09:59 PM

20 gems for thanes = no way. It's needed for mageguilds, runeguilds, rune mages dwelligns and berserker dwelling. There is no chance that you will get Thanes on hard/heroic without several piles of gems, lots of windmill luck and a gem mine captured early.. and we all know what "elder druids guarding the mine" mean..

Same for the drags, in my humble opinion. But here it's at least sulfur which isn't needed much. Still, 20 kinda hurts.

And level 1-5 units aren't much of damage dealers.

I think it will be changed after some patches, similiar to sylvan town's wicked wood costs. If not, playing this faction on sterile maps will be simply impossible.

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blink
blink


Adventuring Hero
posted November 22, 2006 05:50 AM

The massively cheap tactic everyone has been looking for has, unfortunately, arrived.  Not only does the Dungeon possess a fire-immune level-7, but Runemage has skills that can make Armaggedon more powerful than it is even in the hands of a Warlock.  In just 5 level ups, you can get expert destructive magic, master of fire, and ignite.  Then just spam armaggedon and, watch as ignite shows itself to be the most ridiculously overpowered skill in the game.  If you want to abuse this even more, you could carry along a stack Rune Patriarchs.  Then, every battle, just have your stack of dragons sit there, and have 3 or 4 stacks of one patriarch each.  Use the patriarchs to hit as many targets as you can with Mark of Fire (does cross fire allow you to damn multiple targets with Mark of Fire in just one shot?)  Then cast armaggedon.  You sacrifice your patriarchs but if your hero has a spellpower of just 10, all of the enemies who were damned will receive 660 damage.  PLUS, they'll receive that much damage AGAIN with ignite.  Even if you don't use patriarchs (or you're unlucky and none of them are able to damn any enemy targets) the damage is still insane.  Note to programmers:  don't make level 7's that are immune to fire (Phoenixes are okay because they're neutral).

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emilsn
emilsn


Legendary Hero
posted November 22, 2006 07:27 AM

Quote:
The massively cheap tactic everyone has been looking for has, unfortunately, arrived.  Not only does the Dungeon possess a fire-immune level-7, but Runemage has skills that can make Armaggedon more powerful than it is even in the hands of a Warlock.  In just 5 level ups, you can get expert destructive magic, master of fire, and ignite.  Then just spam armaggedon and, watch as ignite shows itself to be the most ridiculously overpowered skill in the game.  If you want to abuse this even more, you could carry along a stack Rune Patriarchs.  Then, every battle, just have your stack of dragons sit there, and have 3 or 4 stacks of one patriarch each.  Use the patriarchs to hit as many targets as you can with Mark of Fire (does cross fire allow you to damn multiple targets with Mark of Fire in just one shot?)  Then cast armaggedon.  You sacrifice your patriarchs but if your hero has a spellpower of just 10, all of the enemies who were damned will receive 660 damage.  PLUS, they'll receive that much damage AGAIN with ignite.  Even if you don't use patriarchs (or you're unlucky and none of them are able to damn any enemy targets) the damage is still insane.  Note to programmers:  don't make level 7's that are immune to fire (Phoenixes are okay because they're neutral).


Wauw that seems totally Imba! ! ! If you can just have a lot of Magma drakes on you and then you go crazy with Armaggedon! To wicked! ! Its almost before the armaggedon sqaurd could get made once again(just like in HoMM3)

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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted November 22, 2006 09:09 AM

I think it only sounds imba ! But the fact is ... dwarfs don't have a big spell power, and ignite gives that (not so big ) damage over the next 3 turns which is nice, but not that game breaking as it may seem at first sight! Lets just think about the marksmen (with vitality & protection), 600 of them , they will take the first armaggedon , die 60 at most , and then kill all the magmas ... Same for the thousands of skelletrons ! Or what if the warlock gets to cast before you ... empowered implosion on your magmas = history ! The Wizards also have a powerfull tool against magic : their artifacts ! They usually can easily get almost 50% resistance from their artifacts, and  also they have Sap Magic and Protection, so the dmg done is minimal!

Sylvan and Inferno might have some problems with this tactic, but their high initiative might help !

And also, who says you'll get armaggedon in your guild

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted November 22, 2006 11:30 AM

yeah, you also need level 5 mage guild, along with 30 sulfur for magma dragons' dwelling+upg. I don't think it is overpowered. It's good that dwarves have their killer-strat, though. Every race needs one to aim for (like empowered lucky implo+slippers or 600 marksmen)

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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted November 22, 2006 12:38 PM

so ... anyone knows how do the primary skills develop for Fortress Heroes ?!

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blink
blink


Adventuring Hero
posted November 22, 2006 01:14 PM
Edited by blink at 13:21, 22 Nov 2006.

The thing is, you can get this insanely powerful combination MUCH faster than anyone can get 600 marksmen.  And this strategy doesn't require you to upgrade to magma dragons.  The fire dragons will do just fine.  The only real variable is whether they get armaggedon.  There's a much higher chance of that than that a Warlock will get emerald slippers and implosion.  By the time you have this strat ready to go, your opponent will more likely have around 200-300 marksmen.  And your fire dragons, with their 230 hitpoints and their 35 defense, not to mention all the defensive skills and bonuses the Runemages can get, can just sit there, nice and cozy on the other side of the battlefield from the marksmen.  In fact, might as well have your dragons use the defend command to make them a virtual block of stone.

And even with sap magic and protection (assuming for some reason a wizard actually gets the defense skill, which I've never heard of anybody playing academy doing), that's only a 35% reduction in damage.  The 660 damage per turn plus the 660 from ignite gets reduced to about 440 plus 440.  Also, while the Warlock can get emerald slippers for implosion, the Runemage can get a phoenix cape.  Armaggedon only does 10 less damage per spell power than implosion (30 less if we're talking about empowered implosion).  The difference is that Armaggedon hits all your enemies instead of one stack and your dragons are likely to outlast any other stacks because of their enormous hitpoints.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted November 22, 2006 01:30 PM

yeah, yo don't get arma - you lose, you get rushed - you lose, you don't get 20 sulfur - you lose.. doesn't seem too imbalanced to me.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Alone in the Forest
posted November 22, 2006 01:41 PM

Quote:
so ... anyone knows how do the primary skills develop for Fortress Heroes ?!


It's in the manual.Primary attributes are 20% 30% 30% 20%(well balanced).They are good with mostly warmachines and defence and have little chance to get logistics,summoning and sorcery iirc.I'll edit later if I am mistaken.
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Mind the gap between your mind and reality.

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blink
blink


Adventuring Hero
posted November 22, 2006 02:26 PM

What?  Why do you automatically lose while you're building up to getting the armaggedon tactic?  The dwarves are more than capable of holding their own until you get your dragons ready.  Very little gold has to be spent in places you wouldn't be spending it anyway if you were going for some other strategy.  And I'm not necessarily recommending this strategy for small maps.  It's simply an obviously overpowered strategy on large maps.

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blink
blink


Adventuring Hero
posted November 22, 2006 02:30 PM

Quote:
yeah, yo don't get arma - you lose, you get rushed - you lose, you don't get 20 sulfur - you lose.. doesn't seem too imbalanced to me.


By this statement, you must be arguing that if you're a Warlock and you don't get Implosion, you lose.  Or if you're a Warlock and don't get the emerald slippers, you lose.  Or if you're a Warlock and get rushed, you lose.  And that's just obviously not true.

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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted November 22, 2006 02:42 PM

what you completly ignore is the fact that armaggedon does less damage compared to implosion, and even less compared to empowered implosion! and empowered implosion is many times defeated by a biiiiig stack of marksmen or skels ! so how on earth would a hero with lower spell damage and less troops defeat those masses ? Or how would you defeat a Warlock with only hydras equiped, and empowered implosion ??? your dragons would die much swifter than his hydras cause they simply have less HPs and your damage is lower than a warlocks...

This strategy ain't overpowered at all ... It might work from time to time, but it is far from overpowered ! This is Heroes 5, not Heroes 3, and creatures don't die from spells as easy as they used to back then.

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blink
blink


Adventuring Hero
posted November 22, 2006 02:48 PM

Armaggedon plus ignite = 2 x (30 + 30 x spell power) = 60 + (60 x spell power); costs 20 mana

Implosion + empowered spells = 1.5 x (40 + 40 x spell power) = 60 + (60 x spell power); costs 36 mana

They do the EXACT same amount of damage.  And if a Warlock has only hydras, then you don't need to make your dragons just sit there.  They can attack the hydras (note, fire shield is also fire damage so ignite will affect that too).

Something I'm not sure about:  Is the fire breath of the dragons considerd fire elemental damage too?  If so, then is this doubled by ignite also?

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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted November 22, 2006 03:10 PM

have you ever used Ignite? I didn't, but as I understand from the description, it doesn't do that damage instantly, it does it over the next 3 rounds... which ain't that great imho ! and it only applies to Hero spells ! I don't think you'll get to live 3 rounds of implosion with those dragon ... actually I think your dragons will die from the first implo shot, don't forget dragons are harder to build than hydras(later) and that the spell power of the warlock will probably be almost twice your spell power !

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted November 22, 2006 03:25 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 15:25, 22 Nov 2006.

well, after first armageddon, the damage is doubled by ignite every turn (as if you would cast extra arma). So it's basically stronger than empowered armageddon, and with fire mark triggered, it may even top empowered lucky armageddon. The only factor is lower spellpower.

Why will you lose to a rush? because you spend lots of resources on mageguilds and dragons, having little army left. So, a quick attack may cripple you completely. In case you sit in the town, you won't gather enough resources. In case you wander around, you may lose your town or hero.

And don't forget the boosted familiar strategy. Without mana, no armageddon will threaten my army : )

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dschingi
dschingi


Famous Hero
the guy with the dragon golem
posted November 22, 2006 04:11 PM

When I looked in the manual I found this:

Empathy
Each time when the Morale effect is triggered with any of the creatures in the hero’s army, the hero moves 10 percent
forward along the ATB bar. (If the creature has a negative Morale effect, the hero is moved backwards).
   » Runemage: requires Runic Attunement (Leadership), Mentoring (Enlightenment)

I was wondering how much useful this ability really is, so I did some calculations.

Note: When I speak of "round" I mean it like it is used in spell descriptions. (not depending on creature's initiative)
When I speak of "turn" I mean the period of time a creature or a hero has to wait until its next turn (depending on its initiative)


First you need to know how often morale triggers. With 5 morale it's a 50% chance to trigger. A creature with 10 initiative can act 4 times per 3 rounds (on average), since every turn it's either
atb value pushed by 1 turn
or
atb value pushed by 0.5 turn

-> average is 0.75  => 1/0.75 = 4/3  

so morale triggers 0.5 * 4/3 = 2/3 times per round for each creature

assuming you have 7 stacks which all don't wait or defend, you get 7*2/3 = 4.666 boosts for your hero every round.
This is just slightly more than you get from expert sorcery, but of course both effects stack.
You see the effect of Empathy is very depending on your creatures' initiative. Unfortunately, Fortress creatures have low initiative.
So what is the maximum you could get out of that ability? Ok, take 7 stacks of phoenixes, you cast Mass Expert Haste. I'm not sure how much initiative bonus is possible with artifacts, let's say 40%. So the phoenixes have (1+0.4+0.4)*19 = 34.2 initiative.  7*3.42*2/3 = 15.96  => your hero had an effective initiative value of 25.98  ;-)

Could be nice combined with some magic...
Remember this is all not tested, just in my mind. If you think my calculations are wrong, please correct me.

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PhoenixReborn
PhoenixReborn


Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
posted November 23, 2006 04:50 AM

I'm getting really angry at the guardpost.  You can have a castle with one peasant and 900 shieldguards who are slowly whittled down while the towers shoot and shoot.  I feel the shieldguards (from the guard post, not real ones) should act like summoned creatures and the battle should end as soon all the real troops are killed.

I can't remember an armageddon tactic working since heroes 2.  The spell is much weaker now than it was then.
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Bask in the light of my glorious shining unicorn.

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