dimis
dimis


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
posted January 20, 2008 04:29 PM

more!
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The empty set

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sachelos
sachelos


Known Hero
posted January 21, 2008 01:51 PM

hi

We definetly want more! More More More!

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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted January 23, 2008 10:52 PM





Its the modified jebus. You have exp haste. What would you do?

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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted January 24, 2008 09:13 AM
Edited by liophy at 09:21, 24 Jan 2008.

It seems that Nymus has 1 more step towards the tope. And after that he will have about 4-5 steps left.  Thats not much movement to waste.

I would left Nymus with his sultans to sleep at the tope and take it the next day with some more sultans and devils from the new generation.

The possible problem is the lack of money. But you have 3 markets and probably 2 gold mines, probably 4500 gold per day and about 5000 from resourse exchange. And probably the scouts get some more too.

Obviously its either with 1 or with 2 blackies (pack dragons mean that you have 8+6 green and red, so no more than 5 black and gold). So its not that hard, its dooable. But still there will be some victims. And i am not sure If the black and gold dragons will hit imps first. Because if thats the case no casualties whatsoever.  With haste you will move your Pit Lords save from greens and reds (usually pit lords are the prime target for green and red). Then with power stacks ware down the dragons and in round 3 you summon demons from imps.

I dont have practice on this modified jebus, but since its poorer the development is slower. So a waste of 4-5 steps is not a big deal if it saves you your whole stack of Pit Lords.

If i play a competitive game i would not risk, since i hate to ask my opponents for load. If its with a friend or singleplay i will go for the tope.

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angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted January 24, 2008 02:21 PM

Imps will survive longer coz of vial. 6 hp is great...so 10 lords (if all stay alive) can resurrect 14 demons.
I am pretty sure golds and blacks won't kill the imps in 1st round, and as usual dragons fear powerstacks when hero has offense skill.

The few losses (imps, few demons, maybe few wyverns) are a good deal for the money u get to buy troops next day resp. upgrade your devils.
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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted January 24, 2008 02:42 PM
Edited by liophy at 15:19, 24 Jan 2008.

Yes, Angelito - for sure the victims will be worth it in general. But the question is - why not waiting the next day, when you will have 2 more devils, at least 5 more sultans, and depending on the money 7 or more Pit Lords. 17 Pit Lords look more like powerstack than 10 PL.

So for me thats the question - does it worth wasting these 4-5 steps ramaining for the Nymus movement for the day.

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angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted January 24, 2008 03:56 PM

As far as I can see, maretti has an external devil dwelling flagged (he has 4 instead of 2/3 devils week 2). Money will be essential. I am not sure he has enough movement to retreat vs the pikemen to the southwest to bring Nymus home next day and go for middle the following day. So I think those 4-5 steps could be important to not lose a whole day...

And I'm also sure he won't get 5k gold trading reward for his resources, coz he needs all his mercury (he needs even some more for upgrading and buying!) and some wood/ore.

Upgrade forsaken place = 20.000 gold + 20m
4 devils upgrade = 7200 gold + 4m
1 devil from ext.dwell = 2700 gold + 1m
1 devil upgrade = 1800 gold + 1m
Buying 3 archdevils in town = 13500 gold + 6m


So only to handle his devils, he needs 45.200 gold and 32 mercury.
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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted January 24, 2008 04:18 PM

Thats true - he needs the money badly. And the tope will be taken. The question is when - right now, or the next day with 3-4 more devils and probably some sultans.

I cant believe that the pikes are the nearest way to retreat. And since in tope is unlikely to waste much mana i dont think its vital to sleep in town after retreat. If so - this steps would not decide a full day movement.

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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted January 24, 2008 10:46 PM

This tope is as close to the exit as my town is so there is no need to retreat. I have 1 devil, effret and pitdwell flagged. I cant bring the creatures from the dwells the next day but I have a chain from the town.

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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted January 25, 2008 09:08 AM

And whats your maximum money for the next day (income, scouts still picking golds and resourse exchange).

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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted January 25, 2008 05:21 PM

Income probably 4500. Basicly nothing to pick up.

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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted January 25, 2008 05:53 PM

Well, if no big income i will go straight for the tope in this day.

My question is what the blacks and golds will do. Will they attack the Pit Lords or  will they attack the imps?

Whats the answer Maretti?

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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted January 25, 2008 06:35 PM

Ill give some more time for some more people to give a comment before I state my opinion.

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Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted January 25, 2008 07:26 PM
Edited by Binabik at 19:26, 25 Jan 2008.

I know through testing that 2 Golds will attack the imp stack and 3 Golds will attack the Pits.

I did a little testing on this back in the Tactics Exercises Thread. And I've done a small amount of testing since then, but still haven't figured it out completely.


The basic idea is:

If damage given > damage taken
then attack

If damage given < damage taken
then attack weaker target if it exists


With 2 Golds, damage given < damage taken in retal, so the Golds attack the imps instead.

With 3 Golds, damage given > damage taken in retal, so they attack the Pits.


This simple formula works for this particular case, but will not always work because there are other factors. For example 3 Golds will kill 3 Pits, but 2 Golds only kill 2 Pits. The AI seems to give a higher priority to killing units than it does to total damage.

I did a small test with 12 Pits instead of 10. With 3 Golds vs 12 Pits, the damage given and damage taken are close to equal. It's so close that 3 Golds will attack the Pits on grass or neutral terrain, but will not attack them on lava.

I need to do some more testing on this, especially finding what weight killing units has compared to total damage.

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dimis
dimis


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
posted January 26, 2008 01:28 AM

I did some testing as well.
In the worst case you have two blacks and 3 golds, hence you are going to face some losses on pits. Actually, you lose 4 pits by saying "Hi". Then, the point is to attack the black and gold without being in reach of the greens and as many units as you can from the reds. However, I've split my stacks of imps into two equal sizes and are both towards the red/green combo.
Then, in round 1 you kill the blacks and golds are ready to die - they die by the sultans on the next round. Imps are dead from round 1, but one of the stacks died next to the greens. Hence second round you raise (I think) 7 demons next to greens. Meanwhile, devils and wyverns have attacked the reds, and the powerstack of demons waits. Reds attack the raised demons, but they can not kill them, while greens kill them. Now in the end of round two, the powerstack of demons finishes the reds. In round 3 you attack with the devils, wyverns and demons the greens and game over.
Hence in the end you lose the 4 pits that you can not avoid, 3 wyverns, and 1-2 demons in the 3rd round (since you raised some in the meanwhile). Of course imps are also lost, but who cares? That's 30,000 gold + artifacts ...
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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted January 27, 2008 11:38 AM
Edited by maretti at 11:43, 27 Jan 2008.

I would wait for the new production. If you attack now, the golds and blacks will hit the pits and there will be other casualties. The AI has certain preferences, it likes hitting units with low hp, shooters or units next to shooters, but also pits and nagas unless you have a real powerstack. With the healthart the imps are suddenly not a high priority target so I would bring gogs instead of imps. Make sure to bring all pits. Even with new production there will still be a few loses but you can live with that.

Its important not to lose any pits since that will make them even more vunerable in other battles and you really need them for futher demonfarming. As Liophy mentioned you wont lose much movement by waiting. And with exp log and boots movement isnt exactly your problem.

I lack money even after getting 30 k from this tope but ill just make sure that everything I bring to the deseet is upgraded and then have a chain ready to bring more troops whenever I can afford them.

@Dimis: Imps lost means demons lost.

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Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted February 04, 2008 04:00 AM





What would you do?

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Fank0
Fank0


Known Hero
There are no limits
posted February 04, 2008 06:17 AM

Open the dwelling, buy the 3 minotaurs, pick the gem pile, build minos in the castle, sleep at the dwelling, on day 1 buy the new 3 minos, then chain the army back to Pyre, which is the main hero i suppose. But from the screens i cannot say anything else, besides some hero must take the chests above the dwelling. On day one probably upg minos if possible.

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Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted February 04, 2008 06:25 AM

I don't know if Seph has 1 or 2 steps. The pile of gems needs to be at least 4 gems to build minos in town.

I can take the dwell and build POS and buy 5 minos.
I can take the dwell and build castle and not buy any minos
I can take the dwell and MAYBE get the gems and build Labyrynth + buy 3 minos from ext dwell

Any other options?

And yes, Seph is my main. Opponent picked 2 towns and 2 heroes and I chose which one to use.

Template is Cube

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Fank0
Fank0


Known Hero
There are no limits
posted February 04, 2008 08:51 AM
Edited by Fank0 at 08:53, 04 Feb 2008.

There is a good chance to get 4 gems from the pile since it is gives 3-6. I think you will have movement to pick it. And why is Sephirinoth your main hero ? It has something to do with your opponent picking your hero may be? I do not quite understand this. In general Pyre is way better in any way i can think of. Castle building is not a good option in my opinion - you will be left with no money and the creature bonus is quite insignificant. Building mino dwell is better than POS, cause it will give you one minotaur more.

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