Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
New Server | HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info forum | HOMM4: info forum | HOMM5: info forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: The 8 skills of a hero
Thread: The 8 skills of a hero This thread is 30 pages long: 1 10 20 ... 23 24 25 26 27 ... 30 · «PREV / NEXT»
Kicferk
Kicferk


Known Hero
posted April 16, 2015 10:56 PM
Edited by Kicferk at 22:57, 16 Apr 2015.

Just make all AI stacks attack in a never ending loop until your stack is dead(or AI stack is dead from retaliation/fire shield), and have a lot of fun with vampire lords

But seriously, just turn creature experience on and lvl 8 creatures suddenly become waaay more dangerous and scary

If you want a challenge do both, though I don' really see the point

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted April 16, 2015 11:00 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 23:04, 16 Apr 2015.

LizardWarrior said:
You could just go crazy on their abilities, like giving vamp lords unlimited retaliations, attack and return, give skeletons death gaze or life steal, enhance their stats, give them magic immunities (immunity to slow and everything will be a lot harder ), you could also make enemy heroes cast slow every turn, give them armorer and offense specialists and powerful artifacts. Eventually you could script battles with land mines and quicksand and some insane obstacles. It's easier to make something impossible than to beat something impossible


How about Hell Barrons summoning ArchDevils who have attack and return and attack all around from level 0? Efreet Sultans with upto 80% block and summon 100% efreet? Powerliches with No Distance, Double Strike, Bless, Haste and Prayer? Every troop besides mine with 25% increase in all stats per week from day one? Everything done, tested and overcomed. I'm now going for AoD and Cloak for Necro H1 and AB + Crimson Shield for Inferno H1 but I know I can still beat them.
I think I will have to go the other way, nerf player possibilities (like don't let them assemble Cloak or give up on Clerics starting with Succubusses and Knights with Brutes) but that means undo large parts of my own enhancing scripts, like the amazing Guardian Angel (a battle that will allow you to have a creature summoning SAs every 4th turn) or the PowerUp Mushroom (a kind of Emerald Tower but available all the time) and so on.

P.S. This discussion should probably be moved to somewhere within the Wog and Beyond thread. If a moderator wants to do it I can create a thread for this map (even if I'm starting to think I will never be able to solve these issues in a way map will be publishable)


 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted April 16, 2015 11:19 PM

Because you refuse to imagine Heroes in a dynamic perspective, as it is meant to. You start with almost nothing, and after many efforts, you end as god and claim victory over the whole land. If you start with millions of creatures, you skip the most important part in a map, the progression. Is a dead end.

You should first play good sod maps then you will know what to do for your map.
____________
All my Era II mods

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted April 16, 2015 11:38 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 05:30, 17 Apr 2015.

Salamandre said:
Because you refuse to imagine Heroes in a dynamic perspective, as it is meant to. You start with almost nothing, and after many efforts, you end as god and claim victory over the whole land. If you start with millions of creatures, you skip the most important part in a map, the progression. Is a dead end.

You should first play good sod maps then you will know what to do for your map.


I don't start with millions of creatures, I start with this:



but I give player a lot of possibilities to expand these numbers (heroes with master of upgrades specialty, access to Cloak, succubus, summon SAs, access to enhanced stats, possibility to add/change EA habilities, etc). All together they reveal to be too much.

And the idea of having to learn to play SoD very well before being able to create good maps is the one you mocked so much in "Only great..." thread...


 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Kicferk
Kicferk


Known Hero
posted April 17, 2015 12:27 AM
Edited by Kicferk at 00:28, 17 Apr 2015.

Well, it's not necessary to be very good at SoD to make decent maps, but it sure as hell helps

I recently played Baron's map called 'David's story', and I liked it a lot precisely because I had limited options for a long time.

The problem with giving all the options from start is, you can't give them to player in the middle of map, so they become boring, and it opens way to a lot of exploits, everyone has his favourites. So providing any serious challenge is difficult.

Plus, your growth of strength in SoD is somewhat exponential: your hero gets better, gets better troops, better spells, and so on, faster and faster, but there is a limit to that, above certain point town production does not go higher and growth slows down to, say, quadratic or maybe even linear. If you allow for cloak of undead king or succubus AND add faster gowth of creatures, then you allow for near-infinite exponential growth of army. In addition to exponentially boosting this army by hero and special map buildings. Progress that is way, waaaay faster than limit of challenges you can come up with. I experienced it by playing necro in the Dragon Slaughter, after some point game became endless skeleton rampage fest with no challenge left.

So in a way, I am not surprised that many WoG maps still keep many elements of orginal SoD gameplay mechanics.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted April 17, 2015 11:43 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 12:10, 17 Apr 2015.

bloodsucker said:

I don't start with millions of creatures, I start with this:


You start on day 1 with 2 supreme archangels* + other godly stuff, this is usually the army force a very good player has on a regular map late week 3 or even 4. So you automatically eliminate the most interesting part in Heroes: how to create a functional hero with the natural resources the game was designed to start with.


* which is rather funny because is the exact start for TEW III, easy mode, I mean really easy.

____________
All my Era II mods

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Age of erwins is over
posted April 17, 2015 01:05 PM

Well, a map doesn't have to be very difficult to be entertaining, don't forget that not everyone is an expert.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted April 17, 2015 01:16 PM

A map being difficult or not is not the point. Having realistic progression in a map is the key to keep interest up. Anyway, what is nice about wog is that we can add internal difficulties, so each player, with any skill, can complete.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted April 17, 2015 06:46 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 19:00, 17 Apr 2015.

Salamandre said:
* which is rather funny because is the exact start for TEW III, easy mode, I mean really easy.



Well, is not a coincidence. Copy the way you did that configuration was my "Hello World" and something I've been keeping, with slight changes, since day 1.
Do you see those dendroids? To beat them with "random hero", "enhanced war machines I", "AI always ace" and 5x growth plus a 25% increase in all stats but speed I need that army (not SAs casting Frenzy and Berserk and both them and MGs having Attack and Return or MGs having no retaliation and Berserk but some of those things will be needed before the end of the day and for sure to beat the guards of Powerup Mushroom and Palace of Dreams and the first one can't be done by other means*).

There is a reason why the map is rated Easy.

But I'm taking notes, you are revealing some secrets about making good maps I asked you many times and never got awsered. Thanks.

*I may be flattering myself but the trick of giving mass frenzy to SAs to make them cast it in enemies is my invention, in years nobody tought about doing that. But I have to give you the credit, you inspired the idea with a post where you described how you beat armorer specialists by casting Disrupting Ray repeatedly until defense drops to zero. When I was reading the stack experience help.txt I tought: with this I can drop enemies defense to zero at once.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted April 17, 2015 07:36 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 19:38, 17 Apr 2015.

You saw nobody doing that because the frenzied retaliate then would be terrible. But if you give it to SAA which can't be retaliated against, then it will work.

However, you know what I think about such move, this is big cheating against helpless AI. On one side, you give him a helpful spell, on the other you attack him with creature immune to it.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
husham123
husham123


Famous Hero
Peace Maker
posted April 17, 2015 08:19 PM

Still asking myself...:
How did you get that roman soldiers ?
Didn't even heard about them in WoG.
And, umm, how comes you start with powerfull creatures ?
For example in my map Husham 1, I actually put so many creatures because it really was needed to conquer, and the things become harder with every level new made

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted April 17, 2015 09:13 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 21:44, 17 Apr 2015.

Salamandre said:
You saw nobody doing that because the frenzied retaliate then would be terrible. But if you give it to SAA which can't be retaliated against, then it will work.


I've explained how the trick works somewhere. It needs also Berserk and Attack and Return, the idea is that they will use that extra force on other enemy stacks. Contrarily to what I tought in the beggining it can have a drawback, creatures with EA "Immunity to Mind spells (except Mirth and Frenzy)" will recieve the blessing but avoid the curse and attack with increased strength.

And I think you have a double standart with some WoG tricks. On one hand you think things like "lure and berserk" are valid strategies everyone must be aware of, on the other that a coded trick allowing player to beat armies ten times superior is "cheating against helpless AI". Well, this one works against human players too, try to lure Maretti and tell me what happened.

husham123 said:
How did you get that roman soldiers ?
Didn't even heard about them in WoG.
And, umm, how comes you start with powerfull creatures ?

For a presumed member of the HotA development team you sure have a poor understanding of how moding works...

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Kicferk
Kicferk


Known Hero
posted April 17, 2015 11:22 PM

Well, the problem with new trick is, berserk becomes way less viable with creature experience. But your trick actually does not, as all creature experience bonuses allow "friendly" spells to be cast on them. And hence their innate defences against your influence are easily bypassed in any situation. Sounds way more op than berserk, even if it is a bit risky.

So it's not really a double standard. Plus, AI can in rare occasions counter berserk. Dispell or cure will be cast if there is no better option, as AI recognizes a negative effect. Spell resistance will prevent it. But such thing will not happen wth frenzy, as it is a 'bless', so AI is totally defenceless against it.

And to add that up, you can use both tricks at the same time, as frenzy is cast by creatures and berserk by player...

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted April 17, 2015 11:47 PM

@Bloodsucker

I have no problem with the way you play the game, is a matter of taste and personal fun. We just don't play same game, that's all. Until you completed Unleashing the Bloodthirsty, Vengeance is mine, To kill for power, to name a few ones about Heroes basics, any discussion around wog "tricks" is unproductive from my point of view. You don't beat armies 10 times superior, you slaughter them by using loopholes in heroes coding. Try Wayfarer map for the feeling of fighting armies 10 times superior. Without tricks.

btw, I never talk about berserk, all my maps ban it for obvious reasons.
____________
All my Era II mods

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted April 18, 2015 01:18 AM
Edited by bloodsucker at 04:06, 18 Apr 2015.

Kicferk said:
you can use both tricks at the same time, as frenzy is cast by creatures and berserk by player...


You misread me. Since you know how to read ERM, add to this "Two Attacks" and "Attack all around" and you will get the complete trick...

!!EA150:B11/1/102/98/0/0/0/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1;              Attack & Return
!!EA150:B12/1/112/56/0/0/0/0/0/100/100/100/100/100/100;  Frenzy Enemy BEFORE Attack
!!EA150:B13/1/75/59/0/0/0/0/0/100/100/100/100/100/100;   Berserk Enemy AFTER Attack

Salamandre said:
I never talk about berserk, all my maps ban it for obvious reasons.


Sorry, you're right. I already knew that. I have no idea why I associated you with Richard Chen's Trick 14 - Attraction and Berserk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lk_VfZ89xA

And you're right about my gaming skills, I was unable to finnish all those maps when I tried them. Wayfarer I found completly insane.
On the other hand, I think my map (as it is) would be probably more "interesting" for what is an Heroes average player nowadays then those...

Salamandre said:
We just don't play same game


It's true. I tried Unleashing and by the 3td week of the second month I had to face some idiot with a lesser army, I did everything right except to predict he will have high moral every time he needs to, so I loose a bungh of troops by no reason. At this point I pressed F4 and gave up but my will was to show him something of my own (wich I was ment no to do) and I already know I will need another monitor and keyboard if this happens a second time.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted April 18, 2015 09:16 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 09:17, 18 Apr 2015.

Unleashing is not easy, at least until you get resurrect from towers. But you could try first TEW I-II, those maps are MUCH easier, but have gorgeous design, plot and action. And with usain bolt mod activated you can even finish them by month 9-10. However I don't recommend any wog options inside, except interface mods, as unlimited primary skills plugin or commander/henchmen will certainly block several battles.
____________
All my Era II mods

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted April 18, 2015 02:45 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 16:02, 18 Apr 2015.

Salamandre said:
commander/henchmen will certainly block several battles.


Are you kinding? I tried that already. It is impossible to take the city with the troll playing with commander and henchmen. The hero guarding it is at an extremely high level so those two can obliterate a real army, not just some pikes, marksmen, two hundred peasants and a pack of monks. And you don't have the time to became better; you find the city after six or seven days without one and with just a few battles won.
But I was playing Unleashing in SoD, not any type of WoG. If I could learn Armorer and Air also things would have gone a very different way. On the other hand, that map many people admire so much is so directive you can't even learn a secondary skill that wasn't planned.
It is really a matter of taste, when I found out the mapmaker had already decided wich skills I would have I needed a certain determination to continue.

Btw, there is no such thing as "unlimited primary skills plugin", there is one "unlimited secondary skills plugin" and one "display primary skills over 99", to wich do you refer? Not that is important cause I think both must be off.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
BlackMagik
BlackMagik


Adventuring Hero
posted April 18, 2015 04:45 PM

Quote:
For a presumed member of the HotA development team you sure have a poor understanding of how moding works...


Although I understand the feeling, the easiest way to make annoying questions disappear is to answer them....just saying

Besides, the kid has enthusiasm...with enough pushes in the right direction, he might actually get good....again, just saying

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted April 18, 2015 06:29 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 23:43, 19 Apr 2015.

BlackMagik said:
Although I understand the feeling, the easiest way to make annoying questions disappear is to answer them....just saying


Ok, noted.

@Husham
1. There is a thing called defs you must have already heared about. One can change the several defs of a unit, including animations, and have a creature with the same ID number but a different appearance, then change the stats (attack, deffense, damage etc...) to make them match the creature you want to make. There are also "flaged habilities" like "alive" or "shoother" you may want to change.

2. One can change the troops from heroes present in map with ERM. It is also possible to change what troops an hero that is not present in the map will have when he appears in the Tavern (if he is one of the two that appear in the beginning of the week, I mean, if not he will have just a creature of the first type, like when you get Valeska she will have just one unit but it will be an archer not a pikeman).

If you have doubts about how the second topic is done I can show you examples, just PM me. I never did the first too, it requires designing skills I completly lack. But I have changed flagged habilities and creature stats trough ERM. Can show you that too.

@Salamandre
And you say I explore loopholes in code...
Abusing Firewall



 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
mEkICK
mEkICK


Hired Hero
posted April 26, 2015 11:28 AM

Sorry to cut you guys off, but the original topic was for the best skills that a hero should have. Aren't we starting to go a bit off-topic here?

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread » This thread is 30 pages long: 1 10 20 ... 23 24 25 26 27 ... 30 · «PREV / NEXT»
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.0725 seconds