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| Thread: The Mvass plan for fixing America |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · NEXT» |
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mvassilev
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posted February 20, 2008 01:28 AM |
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The Mvass plan for fixing America
Recently, Celfious has unveiled his economic plan. I wish to go further. I wish to unveil my whole plan for America. If I were somehow elected President (which I can't be, being a naturalized citizen), this would be what I would do.
Taxes: The Fair Tax isn't fair. Neither is the Flat Tax. What's wrong with the current system? It's too complicated. Solution: Simplify it. Just go over everything in it, and throw it away if it isn't necessary.
Gun Control: Take away all guns from individuals. They don't need them. Self-defense? If someone's breaking into their house at night, they're not going to be ready to defend themselves.
Iraq: It was a mistake to go and it's a mistake to stay. There might have possibly been some way to do it correctly, but it was unlikely that we would be able to do it, and, sure enough, we didn't. We're just making more enemies over there.
Israel-Palestine: Slowly reduce aid to Israel, while building better relations with moderate Palestinians.
Iran: Getting out of Iraq would improve our relations. We should negotiate with them, offering them food and medicine to stop their nuclear program.
China: With responsible spending, we wouldn't need to borrow so much money from China. Without us buying their products, they would quickly go under. For the further solution, see Great Economic Plan.
Cuba: Lift the embargo.
North Korea: See Iran.
Sudan: Establish a more forceful UN peacekeeping force there.
General Foreign Policy: Cut down on bases in foreign countries. Cut military spending. Stop regime change as an instrument of policy. And give more authority to the UN.
Guantanamo Bay: Close it. It is a blemish on our nation and a violation of the Geneva Convention.
PATRIOT Act: Repeal it. "Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither liberty nor security." - Benjamin Franklin.
Abortion: Roe v. Wade is a good ruling. It legalized abortion, but established reasonable restrictions. Keep it. Don't expand it, don't overturn it.
Stem-cell research: Expand it.
Seperation of church and state: no teaching of creationism/ID in schools. No school prayer. No displaying anything religious on government property. Swearing in court and into office by the Constitution, not the Bible.
Trade: Free trade helps the economy and keeps prices down, as well as improving quality or lowering costs by forcing companies to compete worldwide.
Minimum Wage: Abolish it. It'll decrease unemployment.
Welfare: Limit it, make it only for physically disabled people or for a maximum of 6 months after losing a job. Currently, welfare is abused.
Economic Stimulus package: It is basically inflation. On average, people won't have more money than they started with, but they think they will.
Illegal immigration: No border fence, open guest worker program that is easy to get into. No amnesty.
Legal immigration: Make it easier for educated people to immigrate into the US.
Health Care: Keep Medicare. Only recieve Medicaid if you qualify for welfare. Universal health insurance for children. Make health insurance illegal. Make private citizens pay from their pocketbook for all of their medical expenses. This will encourage them to shop around and get the best care for the money, and there would be no overhead costs from the insurance company. Then there arises another problem. Health care would be too expensive for many anyway. Solution: Have the government pay for a certain percentage (but not 100%) of all health care costs. The percentage would vary depending on the cost of the procedure and the individual's income.
Social Security: In this day and age, people are living longer with better health, so we can raise the retirement age.
Subsidees: Review all government subsidees, and end all unnecessary ones.
Environment: Adopt a carbon tax, while cutting taxes for the poor and middle class to make up for it. Expand nuclear power, and invest in nuclear fusion research.
Budget Deficit: Very important, and not talked about enough. Cut spending and increase taxes as necessary to elliminate the debt and budget defecit.
Subsidees: Just veto all pork barrel legislation.
Education: Put more money into the system. Scrap No Child Left Behind. Focus more on gifted/advanced students. Shorten school day and school year. School is mostly government day care. Therefore, if both parents are working at the time the child would come home from the shortened school day, offer a tax break if they would send their child to actual government day care, up to the age of 13. But don't make it compulsory.
Affirmative action: End it.
Reparations for slavery: Oppose.
Drugs: Keep marijuana illegal.
Death penalty: Keep it.
Other: Abolish Daylight Savings Time. Abolish the electoral college. Introduce the Borda Count method of voting.
Great Economic Plan: This will do much about the environment, the economy, the budget defecit, immigration, and China at the same time.
1. Abolish the minimum wage so outsourced jobs might start to come back.
2. Build a lot of environmentally friendly automated modoern factories that produce all sorts of products. Then privatize them.
3. Staff these factories with both native and guest workers (as necessary) to create lots of cheap products, thus underselling China at least in the US.
4. Sell these products elsewhere, while the Chinese economy continues to decline because it can't keep up.
5. These factories would be very profitable, and we would tax them at a relatively low rate. Since there would be many of them, the government would make a lot of money and cut the budget defecit.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted February 20, 2008 01:53 AM |
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Excellent on guns and foreign policy. Guantanamo Bay too, very surprised you care about the Geneva Convention. Not sure about taxes, but if you think like Ron Paul, that is an interesting approach.
So far so good. But just boldly bring in your views on taking fundamental rights from the workers and exploitation of nature..an we'll see the more inhumane side of you.
It would be fun if you address all the issues that have been risen during the election. Some are for example found here : Election 2008 Issues
Maybe others will bring in their opinions.
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mamgaeater
Legendary Hero
Shroud, Flying, Trample, Haste
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posted February 20, 2008 01:59 AM |
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Condorcet? as long as it doesn't mean that having a 6% vote rate lets you win.
and about the gun thing. what about hunters?
hunters are nessesary to the enviroment. they are predators of deer and without hunters deer would wipe thyselves out. hunters pay primarily for wildlife reserve funding.
as for nuclear energy i have to disagree. nuclear energy is a bad idea. it may be clean and effective but what about storage and accidents. cherynobel occured at one of the sites. if nuclear reactors became rampant then the numbers could go up as well.
i agree with fusion research however.
sorry for bad reasoning.
i just had to make the deer comment...
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted February 20, 2008 02:05 AM |
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So young and naive.
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mamgaeater
Legendary Hero
Shroud, Flying, Trample, Haste
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posted February 20, 2008 02:10 AM |
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since i am young and naive i want the truth...
whats a geneva?
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted February 20, 2008 03:27 AM |
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Edited by Minion at 03:28, 20 Feb 2008.
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Geneva is a city in Switzerland.
The Geneva Conventions set the standards for international law for humanitarian concerns. They chiefly concern the treatment of non-combatants and prisoners of war. (for example torture is a violation of the international law, Geneva Convention)
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 20, 2008 03:35 AM |
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Quote:
Not sure about taxes, but if you think like Ron Paul, that is an interesting approach.
Actually, taxes is one issue on which I disagree with Ron Paul. He just wants to abolish the income tax and replace it with nothing. And I'm not sure that would work at all.
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So far so good. But just boldly bring in your views on taking fundamental rights from the workers and exploitation of nature..an we'll see the more inhumane side of you.
Workers should have no special priviliges. They should just have the rights that all other human beings have. And make no mistake on my environmental stance. I definitely support protecting the environment. But there's a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it. It's one thing to be fighting global warming, the hole in the ozone layer, and pollution, and it's another thing to be trying to prevent the extinction of some endangered moth. I'm not saying that we shouldn't do the latter, but the former is far more improtant. It's just that my motivations for protecting the environment come from different reasonning than most environmentalists'. But this discussion is better taken into the Economy thread.
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It would be fun if you address all the issues that have been risen during the election. Some are for example found here : Election 2008 Issues
I did, except for same-sex marriage, which I frankly don't think should be an issue this election.
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So young and naive.
Are you referring to me or mamgaeater?
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whats a geneva?
The Geneva Convention was when many countries came together in Geneva and basically agreed to treat prisoners of war humanely.
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Eccentric Opinion
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sith_of_ziost
Promising
Supreme Hero
Scouting the Multiverse
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posted February 20, 2008 03:36 AM |
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Hehe, its been a long time since I've criticized the government. Let's get to it. What I don't comment on, I agree with.
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Gun Control: Take away all guns from individuals. They don't need them. Self-defense? If someone's breaking into their house at night, they're not going to be ready to defend themselves.
Um, four word: No way in (censor).
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Seperation of church and state: no teaching of creationism/ID in schools. No school prayer. No displaying anything religious on government property. Swearing in court and into office by the Constitution, not the Bible.
Amen, brother...Oh wait. Seriously, I agree.
Wow, its like we share a political mind. I would vote for yea. What's your opinion on the death penalty?
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 20, 2008 03:46 AM |
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Tell me, for what do you need your gun? And I can't believe I forgot about the death penalty. I'll go add it now.
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Condorcet? as long as it doesn't mean that having a 6% vote rate lets you win.
Well, I think we should have a sort modified Condorcet method. We should have preferential voting. Let's say that there are four candidates running, A, B, C, and D.
Voter 1:
1. A
2. B
3. C
4. D
Voter 2:
1. D
2. B
3. A
4. C
Voter 3:
1. C
2. B
3. D
4. A
Voter 4:
1. C
2. B
3. A
4. D
Voter 5:
1. A
2. B
3. D
4. C
Under the current system, C would win. With preferential voting, B would win.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted February 20, 2008 06:58 AM |
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Edited by Binabik at 07:11, 20 Feb 2008.
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Quote:
Are you referring to me or mamgaeater?
You, or maybe I should say your list.
Taxes: The Fair Tax isn't fair. Neither is the Flat Tax. What's wrong with the current system? It's too complicated. Solution: Simplify it. Just go over everything in it, and throw it away if it isn't necessary.
That's what been done forever. The problem is that nobody agrees on what is needed and what is thrown away. Or are you going to decide yourself? That's throwing away the legislature and declaring yourself dictator. If you aren't a dictator then you must work with congress and it's a given that they will not agree.
As for the complexity of the tax code, yes it's extremely complex. BUT there are reasons for everything in it. I'm not making a judgment if they are good reasons, just that there are reasons. Just keep in mind that tax deductions and credits are an indirect government expenditure. Rather than spending money directly on a program the government wants to implement, private parties are given the task of implementing the program and are paid in the form of a tax deduction or credit. It can be a very efficient method of funding certain types of programs.
Gun Control: Take away all guns from individuals. They don't need them. Self-defense? If someone's breaking into their house at night, they're not going to be ready to defend themselves.
LOL, how do you plan on doing this? I don't mean how do you plan on making such a law, that might be possible (but very difficult). I mean how do you plan on enforcing the law?
Iraq: It was a mistake to go and it's a mistake to stay. There might have possibly been some way to do it correctly, but it was unlikely that we would be able to do it, and, sure enough, we didn't. We're just making more enemies over there.
Oversimplifying - but I don't have an answer either
Israel-Palestine: Slowly reduce aid to Israel, while building better relations with moderate Palestinians.
Hmmm, maybe. Two separate issues though. I'm not completely convinced the two are mutually exclusive.
Iran: Getting out of Iraq would improve our relations. We should negotiate with them, offering them food and medicine to stop their nuclear program.
No comment, I don't know enough about it, but it's definitely more complex than that.
China: With responsible spending, we wouldn't need to borrow so much money from China. Without us buying their products, they would quickly go under. For the further solution, see Great Economic Plan.
When it comes to China, debt is the least thing to worry about. The environment and human rights issues being among them. Currently China is a place for cheap labor more than anything. But I can tell you from experience on the engineering side of it that they are a pain in the *** to deal with.
Cuba: Lift the embargo.
Agree, I'd lift it immediately with no conditions. But just for the record, there are those who think this would ruin Cuba by bringing huge numbers of developers for the tourist industry, thereby ruining the character of Cuba.
North Korea: See Iran.
My approach to N Korea would mostly be to just wait and see what happens - I suspect there will naturally be major changes over the next 10-20 years. And try to maintain communications, either directly or indirectly in the meantime.
Sudan: Establish a more forceful UN peacekeeping force there.
I know almost nothing about this one. But again I think a wait and see attitude is a good idea...or maybe better yet, keep our damn nose out of it.
General Foreign Policy: Cut down on bases in foreign countries. Cut military spending. Stop regime change as an instrument of policy. And give more authority to the UN.
Several issues here. Cut back on overseas bases? Sure. Cut military spending? Not that simple. It needs to be done on a program by program basis and take a good look at the ultimate end effect of the expenditures. Also consider that military expenditures have a LOT of positive non-military effects. Stop regime change...? You're implying that it's already policy and I disagree. Give the UN more authority? HELL NO!!!! They already have too much authority and have grabbed power way beyond their purpose.
Guantanamo Bay: Close it. It is a blemish on our nation and a violation of the Geneva Convention.
Close it? Why?
PATRIOT Act: Repeal it. "Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither liberty nor security." - Benjamin Franklin.
There are a lot of aspects to it. It needs to be looked at on a case by case basis. Some parts are downright unconstitutional, some are very questionable, and some are probably good.
Abortion: Roe v. Wade is a good ruling. It legalized abortion, but established reasonable restrictions. Keep it. Don't expand it, don't overturn it.
Court issue, not legislative or executive issue. Court justices should not be appointed based on Roe V Wade or any other issue.
Stem-cell research: Expand it.
Again, oversimplified. Stem cell research should be viewed as part of the total medical research package with the goal being "most bang for the buck". IMO it's questionable if ANY federal money should be spent on research of this nature. And if it is spent, the taxpayers should share in the profit generated by the results of such research. I mean why should we fund private research and they keep all the profit?
Seperation of church and state: no teaching of creationism/ID in schools. No school prayer. No displaying anything religious on government property. Swearing in court and into office by the Constitution, not the Bible.
Teaching of creationism has just as much place in schools as any other theory. School prayer? I really don't care one way or the other - both sides make way too big of a deal out of it. Swearing into Court? This is different state by state, but I suspect not many, if any, require the use of a bible or words such as "so help me god". I was a notary public (meaning I could take oaths of affirmation among other things). It's the person witnessing the oath that matters, not the use of a bible or specific words. In Ohio we were specifically taught alternate wording when taking oaths.
Trade: Free trade helps the economy and keeps prices down, as well as improving quality or lowering costs by forcing companies to compete worldwide.
Oversimplified - just consider that "fair trade" is an idealistic theory and you have to look at reality rather than theory.
Minimum Wage: Abolish it. It'll decrease unemployment.
I disagree with abolishing it, but it should be used sparingly. I prefer market forces set prices, but that's also idealistic and realism is quite a built different. Just remember that in recent times market forces have driven minimum wage jobs quite a bit higher than minimum wage, so it can go both directions. One affect of minimum wage is to help stabilize the swings that wages would take with normal market forces. Most likely wages would be the most volatile cost component of goods and services.
Decrease unemployment? In theory yes, but it might be too small to measure, and it would only be very short term. In reality? It's hard to predict. What would really determine the effect is the psychology of it and how business would react to it. If business saw it as positive enough, then the economy may expand. It they saw it as negative enough, the economy may contract. Consider what I said about stabilizing the volatility of wages. Business does NOT like volatility, they prefer things stable and predictable because they are predicting into the future and can't make easy assessments when things are unstable.
Welfare: Limit it, make it only for physically disabled people or for a maximum of 6 months after losing a job. Currently, welfare is abused.
I disagree about disabled people only. I taught disabled people when I was in college, and I know for sure they are just as capable of abusing a free service as anyone else. They are also just as capable of truly benefiting positively from it.
Maximum of six months after losing a job? That's called unemployment insurance not welfare. And depending on the state it may be nothing more than private insurance. Regardless of whether it's public or private, it's insurance and the cost is calculated by cost vs. risk assessment. So length of duration of benefits directly translates to the cost of premiums (but it's not linear).
Economic Stimulus package: It is basically inflation. On average, people won't have more money than they started with, but they think they will.
This is a one shot only, but I hope we don't get in a habit of doing this. Let the economist argue about it after the fact...they like arguing over meaningless things like that
Illegal immigration: No border fence, open guest worker program that is easy to get into. No amnesty.
No amnesty. A border fence is stupid and extremely ugly, and a waste of money. Guest worker? How about if we just unofficially look the other way.
Legal immigration: Make it easier for educated people to immigrate into the US.
Oversimplified. And too complicated to go into now. Keep in mind that what you are suggesting will drive wages down for existing citizens.
Health Care: Keep Medicare. Only receive Medicaid if you qualify for welfare. Universal health insurance for children. Make health insurance illegal. Make private citizens pay from their pocketbook for all of their medical expenses. This will encourage them to shop around and get the best care for the money, and there would be no overhead costs from the insurance company. Then there arises another problem. Health care would be too expensive for many anyway. Solution: Have the government pay for a certain percentage (but not 100%) of all health care costs. The percentage would vary depending on the cost of the procedure and the individual's income.
Medicaid for welfare people only? That would be disastrous. Most of the rest is too complicated to go into now. As for people paying directly for health care, it has something going for, but I seriously doubt something workable could be implemented. The few doctors who take cash only tend to charge about half as much.
Social Security: In this day and age, people are living longer with better health, so we can raise the retirement age.
In 50 years when you are that age, you'll think differently about it I say raise the SS tax and do it NOW before it's too late!!!
Subsidees: Review all government subsidees, and end all unnecessary ones.
Duh
Environment: Adopt a carbon tax, while cutting taxes for the poor and middle class to make up for it. Expand nuclear power, and invest in nuclear fusion research.
A carbon tax or something similar is fine, but unrelated to taxes of poor and middle income families.
Expand nuclear energy? grrrrrrr I wish it could be done safely, but I have serious reservations on it. And I don't trust the regulators. To be truly safe the system needs to be almost perfect and I have doubts if that can be achieved. Like I said, I WISH it could be done safely and have a good way to deal with wastes.
Budget Deficit: Very important, and not talked about enough. Cut spending and increase taxes as necessary to elliminate the debt and budget defecit.
How about cut spending and DON'T raise taxes?
Subsidees: Just veto all pork barrel legislation.
If a congressman brings in that multi-million dollar project that employs a lot of people happens in your district, the Congressman gets praised. If it's done somewhere else, it's called pork barrel. This is somewhat of a question of what a representative government should be. Should the representative work only in the best interest of their constituency? Or should they represent their constituency’s predominant view on what's best for the country?
Education: Put more money into the system. Scrap No Child Left Behind. Focus more on gifted/advanced students. Shorten school day and school year. School is mostly government day care. Therefore, if both parents are working at the time the child would come home from the shortened school day, offer a tax break if they would send their child to actual government day care, up to the age of 13. But don't make it compulsory.
Keep the federal government the hell away from education. They can provide funding if they want, especially to supplement the poorer schools districts. But keep any type of control over the education itself out of their hands.
Affirmative action: End it.
Agree
Reparations for slavery: Oppose.
agree
Drugs: Keep marijuana illegal.
agree
Death penalty: Keep it.
Disagree. Two wrongs don't make a right. And please tell me who has the right to decide who is to live and who is to die when the criminal is already in jail and no longer a threat?
Other: Abolish Daylight Savings Time. Abolish the electoral college. Introduce the Condorcet method of voting.
Daylight savings time? Don't care. Crunch the numbers and find out if it really works to save energy. Either it does or it doesn't work.
Electoral college? You already know how I feel about that. Keep it, and return some of the state rights that have been already taken away.
1. Abolish the minimum wage so outsourced jobs might start to come back.
I'd be very surprised if any net inflow/outflow of jobs due to minimum wage could be measured. Most minimum wage jobs are service jobs that can't be outsourced overseas. On the other hand, many of the outsourced jobs are higher wage jobs, not lower wage.
2. Build a lot of environmentally friendly automated modoern factories that produce all sorts of products. Then privatize them.
To a large degree that already exists.
3. Staff these factories with both native and guest workers (as necessary) to create lots of cheap products, thus underselling China at least in the US.
Undersell Chinese made products? You gotta be kidding, it won't happen.
4. Sell these products elsewhere, while the Chinese economy continues to decline because it can't keep up.
See above. And why do you want to ruin the Chinese economy so badly?
5. These factories would be very profitable, and we would tax them at a relatively low rate. Since there would be many of them, the government would make a lot of money and cut the budget defecit.
No comment
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted February 20, 2008 07:29 AM |
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Taxes: There is no way to make everybody happy. Either the rich or the poor are going to complain. It's life.
Gun Control: Sure, then only the criminals have weapons. Great. Making an anti-gun law only affects LAW ABIDING citizens. Not criminals, as they already intend to or have already broken the law. Sorry, bad idea.
Iraq: We agree here, but see no way out.
Israel-Palestine: Get out all together, provide food/ect but don't get mixed up in the fighting.
Iran: Bribe them to stop their program? And then if they don't what? Say pretty please with sugar on top?
Sudan: Let the UN handle peacekeeping force there. Only send as delagets, troops, ect as the next leading country is willing to. In fact, that is how the US should handle it all. If nobody else sends anybody, neither should we.
General Foreign Policy: Cut down on bases in foreign countries. Cut military spending. Stop regime change as an instrument of policy. And give more authority to the UN. First 2 I agree with, 2nd two..I don't.
Guantanamo Bay: Close it. It is a blemish on our nation and a violation of the Geneva Convention. Agree 110%.
PATRIOT Act: Repeal it. "Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither liberty nor security." - Benjamin Franklin. Agree.
Abortion: Roe v. Wade is a good ruling. It legalized abortion, but established reasonable restrictions. Keep it. Don't expand it, don't overturn it. Wow 3 in a row..this is a record or something. I agree.
Stem-cell research: Expand it. Agree 200% on this one. (makes 4 in a row..wow)
Seperation of church and state: no teaching of creationism/ID in schools. No school prayer. No displaying anything religious on government property. Swearing in court and into office by the Constitution, not the Bible. Sort of agree, but at the same time disagree. I think tolerence for all religons should be taught.
Trade: I am not against free trade in any manner.
Minimum Wage: "Abolish it. It'll decrease unemployment". In a fantasy world, yes. In the real world it will just make the 'poor' and middle class almost like slaves, and prices might drop a little, but not near what they should. Only the already rich like this idea.
Welfare: Limit it, make it only for physically disabled people or for a maximum of 6 months after losing a job. Currently, welfare is abused. Agree, however some people do actually need this.
Economic Stimulus package: A joke and an insult.
Legal immigration: Make it easier for educated people to immigrate into the US. Agree.
Health Care: Run it exactly like Canada.
Subsidees: Review all government subsidees, making it easier for people to start businesses, stoping pork and free money to the already rich.
Budget Deficit: Very important, and not talked about enough. Cut spending and increase taxes as necessary to elliminate the debt and budget defecit. I agree, but won't work. Cutting spending yes. People will fight a tax increase (sane or not they will).
Subsidees: Just veto all pork barrel legislation. Agreed.
Drugs: Maker mary jane legal, tax it
Death penalty: Keep it. Agree
Other: Abolish Daylight Savings Time. Abolish the electoral college. Introduce the Condorcet method of voting. Agree, agree, make it popular vote = getting into office..period.
1. Tax businesses that outsource making it more expensive to outsource then have jobs here.
2. Build a lot of environmentally friendly automated modoern factories that produce all sorts of products. Then privatize them.
And who gets them once privatized? Who decides?
3. Staff these factories with both native and guest workers (as necessary) to create lots of cheap products, thus underselling China at least in the US.
4. Sell these products elsewhere, while the Chinese economy continues to decline because it can't keep up.
5. These factories would be very profitable, and we would tax them at a relatively low rate. Since there would be many of them, the government would make a lot of money and cut the budget defecit.
No too shabby, but why harm China just to improve us? The problem with our econmomy is not china. That is only one factor. There are many many other factors.
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Message received.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted February 20, 2008 07:47 AM |
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Edited by Azagal at 07:59, 20 Feb 2008.
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@Mvass
Well that was quite interesting and I think much of it is fairly reasonable (which is why it's going to fail horrobly in the USA but that is just my opinion)
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Gun Control: Take away all guns from individuals.
Riiiight... our American friends will surely agree with that one. xD we allready have someone who doesn't agree.
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Seperation of church and state: no teaching of creationism/ID in schools. No school prayer.
Here I agree with Binabik. Creationism (no matter how obviously stupid it is...even from a (educated) christian point of view) has just as much right to be thougth as Evolution.
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No displaying anything religious on government property. Swearing in court and into office by the Constitution, not the Bible.
Well this should be the "normal" way of things as governments aren't suppose to "take sides" in religious matters.
@Binabik
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Guantanamo Bay: Close it. It is a blemish on our nation and a violation of the Geneva Convention.
Close it? Why?
 . Aren't you the peacey-hippie guy who (in a friendly way) told me that I laugh about violence? Of all the people YOU do not want Guantanamo to be closed?! Saying that is like saying that not all people deserve human rights. It is outrageous what's going on there with the whole western world just standing there looking! Before teaching anyone human rights one should get things right... The USA should stop violating them and the western world should stop tolerating the violation of the human rights... Oh right I forgot that it's full of dangerous terrorist who are threatning the national security of the god blessed America so it's perfectly allright to violate their human rights... yeah right.
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Stem-cell research: Expand it.
I mean why should we fund private research and they keep all the profit?
...? Because it's going to save millions of lives? And I think that as a state it's one of your main dutys to secure the wellbeing of your citizens even if that means that you lose money and others profit. I'm not saying that cancer, strokes and many other diseases will be able to be cured instantly with the help of stem-cell research but they'll find something (yeah I don't have proof but they will)
@Mytical
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...Stop regime change as an instrument of policy. And give more authority to the UN... I don't agree
Oh... so America has the right to utilise other peoples government's for their purpose because they know what's better for those people? That's basically what you are saying if regime changes as an instrument of policy shouldn't be abolished.And of course America would never to that for it's own goals nooooo.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted February 20, 2008 08:04 AM |
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I didn't say I was against closing Guantanamo Bay. I didn't say I was for it either. I just asked why.
Closing Guantanamo Bay and human rights are two completely seperate issues. That's why I asked, because I knew they would be viewed as a single issue when they are not.
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Because it's going to save millions of lives?
It is? How do you know that? What if more people die as a result of funding stem cell research? If the money is better spent on some other type of medical research, then the net effect would be lost lives, not saved lives. The stem cell research has a lot of potential, especially for certain things. But just because it has potential doesn't mean it's the only thing with potential. This is why I said it can only be viewed as part of an overall medical research package.
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Azagal
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posted February 20, 2008 08:17 AM |
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Edited by Azagal at 08:17, 20 Feb 2008.
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I didn't say I was against closing Guantanamo Bay. I didn't say I was for it either. I just asked why.
My bad I missunderstood. Sorry.
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Closing Guantanamo Bay and human rights are two completely seperate issues. That's why I asked, because I knew they would be viewed as a single issue when they are not.
I guess it's hardly the place to ask nor to give the explanation but ehm how are they not? In guantanamo human rights are violated thus guantanamo is an human right's issue. Anything wrong with that reasoning?
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Because it's going to save millions of lives?
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It is? How do you know that?
You seem to know the answer
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The stem cell research has a lot of potential, especially for certain things.
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But just because it has potential doesn't mean it's the only thing with potential. This is why I said it can only be viewed as part of an overall medical research package.
Unfortunately I don't have numbers but 1) Stem-cell research isn't financed enough in proportion to the HUGE potential it has. 2) It even get's blocked by states... wtf? Why would you block something that helps save lives?
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What if more people die as a result of funding stem cell research?
I can't argue with you there since we are talking about human lives and I will sound cruel if I say something against you but I think you are takeing this a bit too far. I mean what do people die from nowadays? Cancer, Organ deficansies, tumors, strokes, etc. all those can be fixed if you find a way to manipulate you stem-cells. And I don't know of any other project that has half the chances of stem-cell research to actually find a cure. But somehow stem-cell research is a bad thing and doesn't get funded. What?
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Mytical
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posted February 20, 2008 08:27 AM |
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I can answer this. Because it is infinately more profitable to treat the symptoms then actually cure something. Is it right? No. That is the long and the short of why Stem Cell and other research is underfunded. Take cancer for instance.
If a cancer patient is cured, even for say one hundred thousand dollars, then that is it. They don't need further treatment, because the problem no longer exsists. However, if you treat the symptoms, and not the cause, then you can keep that up until the patient dies. Possibly netting millions of dollars.
Drug companies, which do the major research (or so it seems) make more money if they can continue to treat something. So why fry up the golden goose and eat it for diner?
Yes, they say they are researching (to look better), but they so underfund it it is not funny. All the best researchers get paid to research new drugs to treat the symptoms, and are kept busy.
Oh, wait, I am part of the 'crazy' conspiricy crowd. .
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Message received.
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Azagal
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posted February 20, 2008 08:41 AM |
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Well the explanation makes sence but Binabik and me were talking about is state and not private firms. And a state should (I don't know how it is in America but even I who isn't a flag waveing supporter of the torch of liberty wouldn't think that the state would do such a bad thing).
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This is why I said it can only be viewed as part of an overall medical research package.
That's what I don't get. Anything that would have the right to get something of that "overall medical research package" isn't half as promising as stem-cell research (No I have no proof whatsoever to support this claim.) because they will no be able to cure the cause of the leading diseases we have today unlike stem-cell research.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Binabik
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posted February 20, 2008 08:44 AM |
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Edited by Binabik at 08:46, 20 Feb 2008.
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<<<In guantanamo human rights are violated thus guantanamo is an human right's issue.>>>
Guantanamo is just a military base that's been there for a long time. To my knowledge it was never used as any type of prison prior to the current batch of prisoners. Human rights issues should be addressed by themselves. The location is merely incidental.
As for stem cells, I'm not saying they shouldn't be funded. I'm saying I don't know. And other people don't know either. I've done some research into it and I've also known about stem cells since 1994 when I worked for a medical company who was involved with it.
During my research, I didn't find what I was looking for (the amount of current federal funding vs total medical funding). But what I DID find by accident was that there is huge amount of spending on "advertising" by companies who will make profits. This appears to be very lucrative business - not research companies, but companies who have hoarded stem cells and are selling them for research purposes. Also there is a large profit for companies who provide the equipment for harvesting and especially storage of stem cells. (which is what the company I worked for sold)
I have no problems with companies making profits, and any other type of medical research could also be "for profit". But it still made me suspicious. These companies are advertising and lobbying just like any other company competing for federal funds.
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<<<but Binabik and me were talking about is state and not private firms>>>
We were? I wasn't. There's no such thing as state owned research firms and probably never will be.
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Azagal
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posted February 20, 2008 10:10 AM |
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Hmm? Quote:
This is why I said it can only be viewed as part of an overall medical research package.
Doesn't this mean that you have a poll of taxpayer money from which stem-cell research will be able to take some money. Of course the people doing research will work for private firms but we were talking about funding which is done by the state, were we not? And you were against funding because non-govermental people would make all the profit (but isn't this the same anywhere the state funds anything...?). Besides were is the profit if they make money from the money the state gives them since we (hopefully) get cures in return.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Mytical
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posted February 20, 2008 10:18 AM |
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Ok going way OT here, but here is the problem. Lobbist, current lobbyist laws, and follow the money. Not to mention religious and moral implications (and the people who vote against anything that would have such).
First point. To many people are voting against stem cell research funding. For political or moral or religious reasons.
Second point. Big pharmacies and companies associated with medical companies are huge lobbist. I know that people think I am crazy, but they don't want a cure. So they will pay big bucks to get that congressman/woman or senator to convince their voters it is bad. Which goes toward the first point. And to 'follow the money'.
3rd point. Religous adversity, moral adversity. There is a debate as to when a fetis is considered 'living'. Some think the moment of conception. Which would be (for them) like santioning murder. It doesn't matter if this is so or not, that is a moot point. It is their perception, and that won't be changed. Makes a grey area for ethics.
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Binabik
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posted February 20, 2008 10:27 AM |
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Just real quick before I go to bed.
Another big concern is that women will become stem cell farms.
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