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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 04, 2008 11:43 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 23:44, 04 Jul 2008.
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Harpies would be much better then boring Emo-Girl Furies -.-
It could have been Dark Elfs transformed by Sylath because they betrayded there own people ( kind of ).
Medusa should replace B i t c h Witch to...
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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A5ado
Tavern Dweller
Master of Logic
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posted July 06, 2008 12:46 AM |
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Edited by A5ado at 01:27, 06 Jul 2008.
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First of all TheDeath, you did not offer any legitimate rebuttal, or contrary evidence to disprove what I said. You answer my arguments by just saying "nope you're wrong I'm right."
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Pardon me but who said that the gameplay suffers if the towns are race-based? on the contrary in fact
Pardon me but I explained exactly why gameplay suffered, and you saying "on the contrary in fact" is the same as saying you don't know how to argue the point - but instead are resorting to simple denial. To reiterate: Having creatures that at least LOOK different make them easier to identify so while playing the game, you don't need to memorize all the subtle differences of the creatures just so you can tell which level they are. According to you then, having all boxes instead of creatures would not affect the gameplay. If you truly believe that than there is no arguing with you.
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Just because it is foul doesn't mean it has to be in a dungeon town for example -- is there any reasonable way to think that it can live in a town with other creatures (communicates well, etc)?? What about culture? Any town has a culture
My point exactly. It doesn't HAVE to be in the dungeon. It doesn't have to be anywhere. The only thing that matters is that the majority of people will accept the whereabouts of the harpies as reasonable. Obviously that is up to the individual - so I'm wondering in your opinion, where would they go?? I think for one that they fit in well with the dank, foul, undergound cave dwelling creautures such as medusa, manticores, and whatnot.
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But bleh, why explain if you won't listen, right?
I'm sorry, but I think no one would say that my well reasoned arguments could possibly result from my denial of all of the 'facts' that you have discussed. In fact, you seem to ignore and deny (as witnessed above) several of my arguments - so who then is the one that 'won't listen' ?
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And that is gameplay?
Yes? Since when did the ease and complexity of game not affect gameplay? A game that entailed knowing detailed statistics, numbers, abilities, traits, strenghts, etc.. , would have vastly different gameplay than one that had simple characteristics - like a game that a level 5 beat a level 4 and thats that. Heroes, by being more complicated, makes it more fun; but if it became too involved (like having to recognize that a dwarf with an axe is stronger than a dwarf on a wolf) than it would be less fun. Im sure that it would also be more frustrating (as I have sometimes found in HOMM5)
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Ever heard of originality? Would you play a game that is exactly like the previous one? Crazy made up name? Dude, mythological creatures ARE made up too.
You seemed to have not actually read the passage that you quoted me on. I said that mythological creatures are made up, BUT the fundamental difference is that they have familiar histories that most people are in fact aware of. This gives them a facet of reality. They can be found elsewhere. When you say originality, I say lazy and unimaginative. Its EASIEST to be 'original' becuase you can just make up any name, and draw any creature to your liking. But to actually do you're homework and research mythological, ancient creatures - that people actually used to believe in - and fit them into the scope of this fantasy game, is vastly different and much more creative. Would you like a castle with 7 different names of creatures that were completely and utterly made up (by ubisoft game programmers - I know that mythological creatures are made up)?? I truly don't think so, but I'd like you to offer your opinion.
I just wish to offer some constructive criticism TheDeath: When you respond, please respond with an argument that at least reveals that you read what I wrote, and that you understood what I was trying to say. It is all to easy to just write, "Thats not true" and then put a little winking smily face next to it so we all think you're being clever, or nice, or whatever it is you intend it to convey.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted July 06, 2008 12:58 AM |
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Its the EASIEST thing to be 'original' becuase you can just make up any name, and draw any creature to your liking. But to actually do you're homework, research mythology, ancient creatures that people actually used to believe in, and fitting into the scope of this fantasy game, is vastly different and much more creative.
I'll tell you why i disagree.
If you are going to create an entirely different universe, why plagiarise? Coming up with actual names, history and function is IMHO a bit more difficult than just ripping off some creature from age of mythology and mold it in somewhere, where it fits.
If you want to make me change my mind, then you should create a creature line-up with nothing that I can trace back to something, else. Then, you will have proven that being original, is, in fact, easier than plagiarising.
(I'm fully aware that plagiarism didn't exist inancient times and that that was considered stylish (Ovid(ius)), but we're in the 21st century.)
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted July 06, 2008 01:16 AM |
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I don't see why plagaitism (or whatever it's called) can be bad, when it actually improves the whole. "Imitatio en aemulatio"(copy and improve), the Romans said, and I agree with this. Btw if we didn't copy units from other myths/games, I believe the Fantasy Game Universe would be a lot more narrow. Inventing creatures can be good, but the succes can be random.
I like my factions to be theme-based; a mix of creatures and Humanoid with a same alightement, caracter, goal, etc... If you don't believe this will work, let me tell you this: Didn't you like H3 towns like Dungeon, Rampart and Fortress ? If you didn't, you clearly are someone who prefers race-based. But I can't imagine anyone who hate every town in Heroes (except for the Knights and the Necroes, every town is theme-based). Theme-based also means about the place we find them; Swamp creatures in one town, Insects from the hills in another and Snow beasts in yet another.
I prefer to have uniformity when it comes to Heroes, so in these cases I prefer Race-based. One race is dominant over the other races in the town. So the dominant races are Elves, Humans, Drow,... while they rule other races like Minotaurs, Dwarves, etc...
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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A5ado
Tavern Dweller
Master of Logic
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posted July 06, 2008 01:39 AM |
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If you want to make me change my mind, then you should create a creature line-up with nothing that I can trace back to something, else. Then, you will have proven that being original, is, in fact, easier than plagiarising.
Jurix - super Jurix
Harvak - Harvak elder
Urinarg - Urinarx
Trikkan - Traxxan
Britin - Britin master
Rortan - Rortan Rex
Markath - Arch Markath
Happy? I guarantee that you can't trace any of these creatures back to anything else in history. I'm sure that you will then say, "What about their backgrounds?" I assure you, it is just as easy to write out names as it is to come up with a tragic story of plight and plunder. A story of enlightenment, some enemies become friends, some friends become enemies. There's conflict, the protagnosist fights throughout a struggle of noble and moral rectitude. In the end the main character is richer for the experience. We all learn something. Thats basically how it goes.
Just for the record, this isn't what I really look for in the Heroes game. I don't care about reading the histories of various characters. It is better to know the history and play the game. If I want a compelling story then heroes of might and magic is hardly the place to get it.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted July 06, 2008 01:44 AM |
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 It seems that I have been beaten.
Post over at the Glade, pls.
But, seriously, you changed my mind some 5 degrees. I especially like the might and magic series for the degree of fantasy and persona in the story. I'm having trouble understanding that this does not affect your gameplaying experience at all. You could, basically be playing chess, rather than this...
More complicated chess, I'm sure, but still...
EDIT: typing out backgrounds is probably easier than spamming letters and spamming letter with prefixes, I'm sure.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 06, 2008 01:51 AM |
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Argh!!!
Races =/= bad gameplay
Races =/= bad story
Mixed =/= bad gameplay
Mixed =/= bad story.
Got it?
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Eccentric Opinion
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Zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted July 06, 2008 06:14 AM |
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Wow, go A5ado! You've really made a lot of points on our side, and your obviously the better at debating.
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Argh!!!
Races =/= bad gameplay
Races =/= bad story
Mixed =/= bad gameplay
Mixed =/= bad story.
Got it?
Ok, we have already established this. But the point we are trying to get across is that Races = Bad game.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 06, 2008 09:43 AM |
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Wow, go A5ado! You've really made a lot of points on our side, and your obviously the better at debating.
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Argh!!!
Races =/= bad gameplay
Races =/= bad story
Mixed =/= bad gameplay
Mixed =/= bad story.
Got it?
Ok, we have already established this. But the point we are trying to get across is that Races = Bad game.
Which is completely rubbish, because that's 100 % subjective. Mvassilevs point is that wether we call the units Dwarf Defender and Dwarf Spierwilder or we call the Blurp and Blop does not affect gameplay, it doesn't even put any limitations on the story we write. Hence, it does not affect the game. It might, however, affect the way we as players perceive the game. Thus, calling them Blurp and Blop might make it a better game for you. For me, that would just make it silly. But that's all subjective.
As pointed out by several posters on previous game (mvassilev, geny) it's impossible to make a game that pleases the subjective needs of all gamers - simply because some of us want one thing, and others want the complete opposite, and we can't have both. Thus, trying to get your point accross seems a bit futile, as we by now have realized that that's your oppinion - but we simply don't agree.
That being said, we can still discuss how we reach the best compromise. 
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What will happen now?
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 06, 2008 02:27 PM |
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Edited by Asheera at 14:31, 06 Jul 2008.
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Quote:
Pardon me but I explained exactly why gameplay suffered, and you saying "on the contrary in fact" is the same as saying you don't know how to argue the point - but instead are resorting to simple denial. To reiterate: Having creatures that at least LOOK different make them easier to identify so while playing the game, you don't need to memorize all the subtle differences of the creatures just so you can tell which level they are. According to you then, having all boxes instead of creatures would not affect the gameplay. If you truly believe that than there is no arguing with you.
Excuse me, but when I play Heroes 5 or even Spellforce (see one of my posts in the first page to see some Spellforce lineups) I NEVER confuse a unit with another. Each unit looks enough different to never confuse it with another.
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Would you like a castle with 7 different names of creatures that were completely and utterly made up (by ubisoft game programmers - I know that mythological creatures are made up)??
Yes, and that would be the most original and imaginative castle, unlike the mythological creatures who are completely unoriginal since someone already made them
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Didn't you like H3 towns like Dungeon, Rampart and Fortress ?
No
EDIT: oh and another point: Can you (theme-based fans) tell me why would you want the Bear Rider in H5 Fortress to be a Bear? As it is now, it already looks different to distinguish it from other units, it has the bear creature (since you want a lot of diverse creatures). What's the problem that a dwarf rides it? Every argument you theme-based fans said until now DOES NOT answer the above question. The fact that a dwarf rides the bear is just more "real" because you can't manipulate bears to attack how you want without actually riding them.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted July 06, 2008 02:35 PM |
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Each unit looks enough different to never confuse it with another.
Actually, I think that's true. I mean, unless you are too much in wc3 and are saying: "aaah, I dunno, all those humans look alike to me."
Really, except for the dendroid, who's in h3, what unit looks alike?
Let's see...
You have the assassin teen blood fury who might resemble the BDSM hag witch...
The sword-wielding aggressor (squire) might look like the hammer-wielding laidback guy (inquisitor)...
Wait, some of them have the same race... Aaaaahhh, that doesn't make sense. Every unit has ridiculous traditional outfits that make them look completely different. hunters don't look like druids, do they?
I find something lacking, if you can only tell creatures apart, when they have fangs and an extra set of wings.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 06, 2008 02:45 PM |
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First of all TheDeath, you did not offer any legitimate rebuttal, or contrary evidence to disprove what I said. You answer my arguments by just saying "nope you're wrong I'm right."
What do you expect me to say? "I agree with you?"
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Pardon me but I explained exactly why gameplay suffered, and you saying "on the contrary in fact" is the same as saying you don't know how to argue the point - but instead are resorting to simple denial.
Sorry to say, I get lost in towns that have no race-based looks -- who are my units? If i don't know the game by heart (i.e you imply that for noobs, only noobs can't recognize units), then I don't know why a Harpy is in Dungeon and not a neutral or simply a foul creature.
On the other hand, if I know Dungeon is a Dark Elf town, I simply know that dark elves belong in there.
You see, what you said is only from your view -- for me, it is completely the other way around. But of course my opinion about what is "distinguishable" is not going to be a "good argument", but your opinion (confusing creatures that look similar  ) is so much better.
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I'm sorry, but I think no one would say that my well reasoned arguments could possibly result from my denial of all of the 'facts' that you have discussed. In fact, you seem to ignore and deny (as witnessed above) several of my arguments - so who then is the one that 'won't listen' ?
You say race based towns cause confusion -- is that a FACT?
There is no confusion for ME, where is the FACT?
The problem of course is that I have explained why mixed-creatures towns are harder for noobs to get to grasp with. You said yourself: the harpy can be in any 'foul' town, so by seeing it, a noob doesn't know it's in Dungeon, even if he knows the town is 'foul', thus he is confused. But of course, we're talking about noobs, because only noobs get confused in the game
On the other hand, if we know Dungeon is a town with Dark elven culture, we basically also know that if we see a dark elf, we know it's from Dungeon town. See?
It might not be a good 'fact' for you because it disagrees with you
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Yes? Since when did the ease and complexity of game not affect gameplay? A game that entailed knowing detailed statistics, numbers, abilities, traits, strenghts, etc.. , would have vastly different gameplay than one that had simple characteristics - like a game that a level 5 beat a level 4 and thats that. Heroes, by being more complicated, makes it more fun; but if it became too involved (like having to recognize that a dwarf with an axe is stronger than a dwarf on a wolf) than it would be less fun.
I beg to differ. The more complicated (but not cumbersome -- you HAVE to learn some things 'by heart', especially in mixed-towns like you propose), the better the gameplay, especially if it's automated.
That is, would you consider a game as simple as with only 1 town, no special abilities, and 1 creature "fun" for gameplay? That is simple, not complicated, yet it is no fun.
The more 'complicated' a game is, the better, if the job is automated (i.e long formulas that are calculated automatically). The problem is, that you say that race-based towns cause confusion. I disagree completely. See above for an explanation.
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You seemed to have not actually read the passage that you quoted me on. I said that mythological creatures are made up, BUT the fundamental difference is that they have familiar histories that most people are in fact aware of.
Exactly my point -- no originality.
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This gives them a facet of reality. They can be found elsewhere. When you say originality, I say lazy and unimaginative. Its EASIEST to be 'original' becuase you can just make up any name, and draw any creature to your liking.
The problem is that you and those that say like this only think that they can make up names and such. You have to come up with:
1) culture
2) description and history
3) purpose
FOR EVERY CREATURE, that is, you need to write quite a bit of stuff in there
This is much more original than copying mythological creatures. You say that names = lazy? Mythological creatures have weird names too. I have never seen any one of you actually posting a good and descriptive line-up, you just put up a random stuff. Do you think that is how it's done? Please, do not think that race-based towns are a random soup like the theme-based ones. All of them have a distinct purpose.
What you people do is come up with random names and call it a 'lazy' approach. That only proves my point, that random-based towns are much easier than ones with culture, reason, purpose, description and history, social attributes, and philosophy.
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Would you like a castle with 7 different names of creatures that were completely and utterly made up (by ubisoft game programmers - I know that mythological creatures are made up)?? I truly don't think so, but I'd like you to offer your opinion.
Yes because it would be a new Universe to explore -- some games with mythological creatures are nice, but not everywhere, they will be boring. I want some NEW stuff, otherwise why not play Heroes 3?
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted July 06, 2008 02:51 PM |
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Wow, this debate is so horribly pointless.
Since it's almost totally based around opinion, nobody's argument can be more valid than anyone else's. Why bother?
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted July 06, 2008 02:52 PM |
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Wow, this debate is so horribly pointless.
Since it's almost totally based around opinion, nobody's argument can be more valid than anyone else's. Why bother?
For the sake of argument.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted July 06, 2008 03:00 PM |
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Not exactly a compelling reason.
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espen15
Famous Hero
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posted July 06, 2008 04:46 PM |
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i voted for races i just like haven more than castle or academy more than tower.
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Zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted July 06, 2008 06:10 PM |
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I agree completely agree with you guys. You guys are pretty much just quoting everything we say and repeating yourselves. I don't think we can convince you to change your opinion, I just wanted to see why you thought the way you do. I came back to these forums at the beginning of the summer to see you people were saying about Heroes 6. I saw proposals, so I made my own. I thought my proposal was perfect. I got some good responses, but thats that. Then I saw the a proposal of a castle of imps, and I laughed so hard. I called my friends to look at that proposal and they did the same. I was thinking to myself, wow this guy worked so hard on this castle, telling the story, the abilities, everything, but no one is gonna want to play a castle with a load of imps.
The last time I looked at these forums was when HoF was coming out. And at that time, people were acting the same way as me, or thats at least what I saw. They saw the dwarf line-up and all thought to themselves "You have got to be kidding me." Well no one I know bought that expansion. And I only got it when Tote came out so I would be able to play online with my brother, without having to buy an extra copy.
Ok, well back to the imps. When I saw the responses I was so shocked I fell off my seat. But then for a moment I thought that, just maybe they felt bad for him for putting in so much work. But I was wrong. People were calling it a great idea, Original, smart. I couldn't believe it. And that is when I decided to make this poll. I didn't even think there was another side to the argument until I actually saw people respond positively to the imp castle.
I can't really argue with you anymore. I just think that if you want the game with a good campaign Heroes is not a good candidate. Just look around, go to game stop you will see.
The Bottem line is this: When we see creative, diverse, "fun", complex you see childish? I think. And when you see Original we see dull, repetitive, boring, unimaginative. I hope I got that right.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 06, 2008 06:21 PM |
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Nobody still hasn't answered my question:
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Can you (theme-based fans) tell me why would you want the Bear Rider in H5 Fortress to be a Bear? As it is now, it already looks different to distinguish it from other units, it has the bear creature (since you want a lot of diverse creatures). What's the problem that a dwarf rides it? Every argument you theme-based fans said until now DOES NOT answer the above question. The fact that a dwarf rides the bear is just more "real" because you can't manipulate bears to attack how you want without actually riding them.
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Zazu1
Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
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posted July 06, 2008 06:31 PM |
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Nobody still hasn't answered my question:
Quote:
Can you (theme-based fans) tell me why would you want the Bear Rider in H5 Fortress to be a Bear? As it is now, it already looks different to distinguish it from other units, it has the bear creature (since you want a lot of diverse creatures). What's the problem that a dwarf rides it? Every argument you theme-based fans said until now DOES NOT answer the above question. The fact that a dwarf rides the bear is just more "real" because you can't manipulate bears to attack how you want without actually riding them.
Haha, Well for me, I don't have as much of a problem with the bear riders as much as the spear wielders, berserkers and thanes. But our reason is because we already have 5 other damn dwarves to look at.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 06, 2008 07:07 PM |
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But the point we are trying to get across is that Races = Bad game.
And this is a point that I disagree with. The presence or absence of races by itself doesn't make a game better or worse.
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Can you (theme-based fans) tell me why would you want the Bear Rider in H5 Fortress to be a Bear?
Well, I am neutral in this aspect, but I'd say that it just beiingn a bear would make it slightly better, because it would break the dwarven monotony.
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Eccentric Opinion
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This thread is pages long: 
