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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 20, 2008 01:40 PM |
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Which means that you don't make the optimal choices in leveling. Yes at times you will lose some abilities out of bad luck but the majority of the times I will get what I want because I'm more careful at what I pick. Suppose they were pregenerated, what would stronghold do with the shatters? Why should everyone be restricted to one build? Besides heroes is all about winning with the advantages that are given to you.
I'm open to suggestions but some simply do not work. That said I'm always on the lookout for balance changes, if something is wrong send me a replay to verify your arguments. When you say x is weak when I have won and lost games with it and tried several builds I don't know what to think. Was it because you made mistakes? Was it bad luck? Was it that your opponent had a better build than you?
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Vangelis21
Supreme Hero
Manchild
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posted September 20, 2008 01:42 PM |
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elvin just think the imbalanced situation. i get necro you get sylvan(random faction, doesnt matter) and i dont like the upgrades i have from the beginning and i retrain them, but you like them and you dont. we are talking for about 8000 gold difference between you and me.
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Heroes VI is here and Necropolis is serious trouble!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 20, 2008 01:46 PM |
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Sylvan is already imbalanced for you to complain  What I plan to do though is remove the tier 6 favoured and switch to the more used upgrades for each faction. Is that better?
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Vangelis21
Supreme Hero
Manchild
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posted September 20, 2008 01:53 PM |
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i said factions dont matter. it was an example! and in my opinion the most commonly used doesnt mean that we all agree. it is ok for me as it is . i am not in a professional league of duels or something! i am just trying to make your map better
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Heroes VI is here and Necropolis is serious trouble!
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted September 20, 2008 01:56 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 13:56, 20 Sep 2008.
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Quote:
Which means that you don't make the optimal choices in leveling.
Nope, it's not possible.
Example:
You are a necromanser and you need Exper dark (but 2 perks), Sorcery on expert (but 2 perks), Enlightenment on expert (3 perks), and Light on basic (with 1 perk).
Here is what I got:
I got Expert Dark and Enlightenment pretty easy, I also got 2 of Dark's perks (ready with dark), I also got all 3 of Enlightenment's perks. On the next level I was able to take Sorcery or light, I need light and it's very rare, so I picked it. On the next level I picked basic Sorcery, later 3 levels with useles skills, advansed Sorcery, light perk...
You got it? As this is PvP map I need only pvp skills and I want them all, not just few, since I can catch them in 21 levels. What is the point if you can't take everything you need for your perfect strategy.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 20, 2008 02:04 PM |
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This still tells me you don't pick your level ups well. If you made sure to get the perks first before getting new skills you'd reduce the chances of something going wrong. Besides you are mostly saying that there is one imba build, that's not true by default. And suppose you miss something, so will the opponent. Give it a rest, in a normal game there rarely is a mentor in the first place.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted September 20, 2008 02:20 PM |
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I have to agree with the retrain thing that it's not "fair", because some factions have a lot more powerful alternatives than the original upgrades and lose more money when retraining. What's so bad in using non-upgraded creatures? Is it such a big deal in having 7 clicks more for choosing the upgrade? Also, I think with unupgraded creatures we should play on normal to have more money...
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 20, 2008 03:14 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 15:17, 20 Sep 2008.
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Oh please, that's boring as hell. Switching to the more used upgrades is enough, squandering the odd 2-3k to retrain is nothing. Instead you should try to avoid mentor and get better lvling up skills instead, there is the true test. And don't start the I need x + y x z combination for extra pwnage, learn to play with what you get. As I've said before most games do not even have mentor so you mess with your build a lot more often.
Period.
I had a battle vs Azagal, academy vs fortress that I barely won. There were some mistakes from both parts but I can only say that without lvl 3 mini arties I'd have lost easily. My experience confirms the same vs sylvan, dungeon, stronghold and haven. Seeing a pattern here? Take that away and they instead become weaker than everyone.
A few minor tweaks here and there and the game will become as balanced as it can be. I'll soon post an improved version and hope there won't be more issues. Though there probably will be - it's like cutting a hydra's heads one by one, another always grows back to bite you 
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted September 20, 2008 04:30 PM |
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Well I played two duels against myself, and Academy was unstoppable in both. And I didn't favor any side, just tell me what I did wrong with Inferno and Dungeon instead...
Academy vs Inferno
Academy vs Dungeon
As you see Inferno didn't stand a chance, now imagine if I resurrected the others with Consume Artifact as well!
In the second one, I didn't go with Destructive for Dungeon at all, because 72% Spell Reduction from Mini-arties + Sap Magic + Protection... well, you get the picture
I even made a mistake intentionally to show how uber academy is (didn't move the Elemental Gargoyles from the Arcane Crystal!). I also chose Magnetic Golems (just in case Dungeon choosed Destructive, which it did NOT) and Steel Golems are better when fighting a non-destructive hero. Imagine if I also resurrected the other stacks with Consume Artifact...
Not to mention Destructive was kinda crappy for Razzak with only 9 or so Spellpower...
(btw, Rakshasa Ksathra + Mini artifact with (Speed + Initiative + Attack) = Total pwnage at start)
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted September 20, 2008 04:47 PM |
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Quote:
I had a battle vs Azagal, academy vs fortress that I barely won.
Academy played pretty badly:
1) Wrong choice of units. Rakshasa Raja is much inferior to Kshatra, especially in the beginning when buffed with mini arties
2) You didn't use Consume Artifact... imagine if that would be involved as well (more HP healed than Resurrection, only 25% waste of hero's turn...)
3) What was with that Mark of the Wizard on Gargoyles?
4) Phoenix was useless and wasted your hero's turn because of Cold Death (this wasn't a "mistake" on your part, but imagine if no Cold Death involved...)
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 20, 2008 05:51 PM |
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[About the replay:
If I had rajas they would have died faster and I needed them alive at all costs. Remember that I had att arties and not def, that was the real mistake.
I did not forget consume but was not about to lose my mini arties unless I felt desperate. A simple armageddon would own me afterwards.
I thought I used the mark on the djinns? Maybe it was a misclick, I hoped they would survive until my hero's turn.]
Have not watched the replays yet, something came up. Meanwhile I updated the map(still in testing phase) and removed tier 6 from favoured and removed the artifacts that either were too expensive to buy or too powerful to use. Sylvan seems a little bit better now but there are a few more things to fix:
One is that word of light for sylvan must go. The damage they do in the beginning plus word boosted by druids, especially with empathy is too much. Neither necro nor inferno can stand against it.
Which means that I will ban it and only give it to haven and fortress, maybe academy if I don't find it overpowered.
However that still does not fix the high druids that give too much spellpower to sylvan. I will have to decrease their stack, every resurrection brings back all the arcane archers and a good part of the pristines at the same time. And the mana is quite a bit to hope that eventually you will run out.
Inferno is a bit limited. That is not to say that it's a bad faction, however it depends on the first strike and its dark are pretty much the epitome of suck. Cotn does pathetic dmg, vampirism drains almost nothing - though it's great as a surprise spell and puppet has ridiculous duration as well as insane initiative reduction to be effective. I will give it by default puppet and frenzy.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted September 20, 2008 05:55 PM |
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Quote:
Switching to the more used upgrades is enough, squandering the odd 2-3k to retrain is nothing. Instead you should try to avoid mentor and get better lvling up skills instead, there is the true test. And don't start the I need x + y x z combination for extra pwnage, learn to play with what you get
I completely agree . The basic thing I read is that everybody wants to get the build they want every time, thus they want more money for mentor, then they complain that there isn't enough money because they have to retrain... it's part of the game?
Maybe I missunderstand this map but the way I see it it isn't about handing you your pefect build on a silver plate. It does a lot for you but if you
a) choose your levels bad
b) simply are unlucky
there is nothing to complain about. "s-word that means poo" happens. I wanted Empathy for my Kythra and got leadership on level 1. Jaaaaij . Then no Diplomacy the next 20 levels.... sold my ressources for futher mentor abuse (is selling your ressources dishonorable since you get a lot of a more money through that than no dungen, etc. ?) and I didn't get Diplomacy for the other 10 relearns oO!! GAAAAAAAAHH!!! That's bad luck (if I picked my skills correctly previously of course but I assure you I did).
Quote:
4) Phoenix was useless and wasted your hero's turn because of Cold Death (this wasn't a "mistake" on your part, but imagine if no Cold Death involved...)
Ashee Darling that's what we call strategy I don't think we could consider that a point. And btw he didn't play bad he was simply going easy on me. And I don't think it would have been that easy for academy if I had covered the bodies (I'm so stupiddddd ).
Here is a battle I had against Radar. Him Academy me Haven. You'll probably say something like he didn't play good etc. but I think he did and it was an completely awesome game. Oh even your khastras would have been toast against that charge. But we both made some mistakes.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted September 20, 2008 06:00 PM |
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And here is another game we had. My Inferno vs. his Necro. To my big surprise I wasn't dark magied to death since he had relatively low mana for a Necro on level 21 (50 oO). This was actually the replay of a game we had earlier and this time he didn't have mass slow like in the first... not sure wether I'd still have won then. But still it's a cool game with a ridicolous gang bang in the middle of the game (lol an armageddon right there would have been waaaaay to cool xD) and the supremely gratifing result of choosing cold death.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted September 20, 2008 06:05 PM |
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Edited by Asheera at 18:07, 20 Sep 2008.
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I still think that Pendant of Mastery should be removed... I already have too many resources (don't buy that many spells from the Arcane Library, maybe 1-2)
And even without that Pendant, Academy would probably have level 3 artifacts on almost all stacks, maybe only 2-3 stacks with level 2 artifacts.
EDIT: Oh and about the retrain thing, I agree Mentor should not be used much, but what I was saying is simply that it's not fair for those factions that have the original upgrades better (in general) than the alternatives, because they may be able to use the Mentor more than those factions that need to retrain a lot.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted September 20, 2008 06:14 PM |
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Quote:
Oh and about the retrain thing, I agree Mentor should not be used much, but what I was saying is simply that it's not fair for those factions that have the original upgrades better (in general) than the alternatives, because they may be able to use the Mentor more than those factions that need to retrain a lot.
That makes sense indeed. But I personally believe that if you are to win a game you will not lose it because you didn't get to mentor enough.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 20, 2008 06:16 PM |
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@Asheera
Watched the replays so here are my two cents.
1)First of all dark vs academy..? Next, warmachines..? If he had saboteurs it would mean 9 wasted levels. And even worse no tactics, the rakshasas or titans would have been greatly weakened if you had attacked them first, that leaves little room for phantom tactics.
2)No destructive is a tactical mistake. Irresistible pierces resistance arties so it's not much of a concern that you would avoid them. Secondly if you wanted to avoid the rakshasa charge you should have pressed ctrl when attacking with the furies. Yes another unit would have killed them in the meantime but that would still be to your benefit. In how many games you think it will work? So many units can act before them even attack them, it's a matter of luck.
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Vangelis21
Supreme Hero
Manchild
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posted September 20, 2008 06:17 PM |
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azagal just think about a veeery simple situation were you dont get in the mentor the soldier's luck. and your vempire princes don't blind the last stack of the opponent and next move he kills you. is that or not an unfair thing? and it is one of dozens of cases. even 100 gold more toi one of the players is unfair . end of discussion. this map will never become 100% fair unfortunately!
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Heroes VI is here and Necropolis is serious trouble!
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted September 20, 2008 06:22 PM |
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@Elvin: Ok, War Machines were a bad choice, but at least there weren't Saboteurs.
But I don't know what's wrong with Dark though... Mass Slow is still very powerful (and Mass Suffering which I had)
And I agree I forgot about Irresistible Magic
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 20, 2008 06:28 PM |
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For one magic mirror makes every single spell a gamble, even vampirism can be redirected perhaps to their own units. Secondly mass haste/RM can be overwritten in less than half a turn with mass slow/suffering. Not a good gamble.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted September 20, 2008 06:31 PM |
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Hey, one obvious thing I forgot to ask that isn't mentioned on the master post. What time limit do you guys typically put on turns? I'm accustomed to the 15 second thing when competing with the Europeans, but you guys may roll differently.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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