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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 21, 2008 01:15 PM |
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No it's 100% + (HeroLevel - EnemyHeroLevel) * 3%.
It's based only on Levels, and thus if the enemy has the hero's level <= than yours it's a 100% chance.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted October 21, 2008 01:18 PM |
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That's outright stupid Oo. Are you sure? So a 1 Spellpower Knight can clense the 18 Spellpower Puppetmaster of a Necro? LOL broken.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 21, 2008 01:44 PM |
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Yes, I'm sure, that's what it says in the Fan Manual.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted October 21, 2008 01:48 PM |
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My bad then. Sorry. It's still broken though!
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted October 21, 2008 01:50 PM |
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I've always thought puppetmaster is a ghey spell as it is, so I don't mind having more than one solid counter for it. Although where did you get that formula Ash? It doesn't say in the dispelling section in the manual.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 21, 2008 02:00 PM |
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It says in the spells section, where Cleansing is described (page 189)
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted October 21, 2008 02:03 PM |
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I guess reading the actual spell description would be good idea 
Anyway. I still vouche for my decision to puppetmaster the dragons. Desperate times call for desperate measures. It might seem like a bad move now, but hindsight is always 50/50.
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Final_Boss
Adventuring Hero
The Necropope
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posted October 21, 2008 04:51 PM |
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Quote:
I disagree. I'm fairly convinced that the Windstrider Boots is what made that fight so one-sided. His windstrider boots let his unicorns and bladedancers both attack the first round. I went attack because I decided to go lichlords/skele archers to be able to beatdown on his ranged units, so I went archery and then also battle frenzy while I was at it since it's very good perk for necromancer. As far as luck, luck is not a bad skill for necro, especially in conjunction with attack, and I only ended up investing 1 skill in it anyway.
As far as the puppetmaster thing, you have to understand by this point I was already in horrible trouble, so yes, I decided to go with the gamble. His emerald dragons, unicorns, bladedancers, and drayds had all torn into my troops with righteous might before I could do anything. I didn't know that he had cleansing or magic immunity, and cleansing doesn't always work. I highly doubt casting a mass debuff or something would have saved me so I needed to be risky.
If you want to neutralize enemy archers then pick Fog Veil and Evasion that are part of necro must have skills (Summoning & Defense) and buy warriors, but you should never choose Offense + Archery, mainly because your lichs will never shoot (blocked in the first turn) and skelly archers will take a ton of damage before they can act (and they do nothing vs high defense troops anyway).
Offense is worthless when your units are slow and made of paper!
And you should use Summoning more than Dark. Puppet Master, Frenzy and Blindness are overrated spells… With Fire Traps and Arcane Crystals you can obliterate a might faction in record time, really.
You probably wouldn’t have won anyway, but nor lose so badly.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted October 21, 2008 04:54 PM |
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I agree with Final_Boss. However:Quote:
And you should use Summoning more than Dark. Puppet Master, Frenzy and Blindness are overrated spells… With Fire Traps and Arcane Crystals you can obliterate a might faction in record time, really.
While it is true what you said about Puppet Master and possibly Frenzy in some cases, Blindness is a very good spell, especially if the enemy doesn't have Cleansing, and it only costs 10 Mana (important for Necros).
And yeah Arcane Crystals are good but not that good for slow Necros. Fire Traps just depend on luck, and I agree they're good when you are lucky or place them well.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 21, 2008 04:56 PM |
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I'd say Frenzy is a lot better than Puppet, because:
1) It doesn't reduce the initiative
2) It can't be removed with Cleansing! (as far as I know)
But probably he didn't have Frenzy...
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted October 21, 2008 05:02 PM |
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They're both very good spells respective to their level. Frenzy limits your strategic options. With puppetmaster you can attack certain units such as enemy ranged, or you can specifically pick the strongest other stack to attack in order to inflict max casualties on each other. Cleansing doesn't work on frenzy, but teleport is a wonderful tool you can use to make frenzy work against the person that cast it.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted October 21, 2008 05:23 PM |
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Quote:
If you want to neutralize enemy archers then pick Fog Veil and Evasion that are part of necro must have skills (Summoning & Defense) and buy warriors, but you should never choose Offense + Archery, mainly because your lichs will never shoot (blocked in the first turn) and skelly archers will take a ton of damage before they can act (and they do nothing vs high defense troops anyway).
Evasion and Fog Veil don't substitute simply killing the units. Sylvan has the scariest ranged in the game. It depends how the positions are set up on whether or not liches are blocked in by the first turn, but even if they are they can still decay the low hp arcane archers.
Quote:
Offense is worthless when your units are slow and made of paper!
Necro units aren't made of paper, defense is their secondary stat. It just seemed like it because of luck triggers and all of his units had righteous might from the beginning. And what's wrong with necro units initiative? They're about on par with most other factions. They don't have any super fast units, but other than zombies they're all around 10 or 11, which is decent.
Dark & Summoning are both immensely useful skills for necro, so I'm not going to get into an argument over one being better than the other. Light magic is a main magic school for sylvan so I probably should have picked Summoning in this case, but oh well. I must have been on the crackpipe.
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Final_Boss
Adventuring Hero
The Necropope
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posted October 21, 2008 06:02 PM |
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Quote:
Evasion and Fog Veil don't substitute simply killing the units. Sylvan has the scariest ranged in the game. It depends how the positions are set up on whether or not liches are blocked in by the first turn, but even if they are they can still decay the low hp arcane archers.
So if you have to cast decay because your archlichs are blocked, why Archery then? Think about it. And if I remember correctly arcane archers only received 1 shoot from your skellies. Anyway, when you’re fighting dragons you know your lichs are going to be blocked forever since the first turn unless there is some nice ground obstacle you can (ab)use.
Quote:
Necro units aren't made of paper, defense is their secondary stat. It just seemed like it because of luck triggers and all of his units had righteous might from the beginning. And what's wrong with necro units initiative? They're about on par with most other factions. They don't have any super fast units, but other than zombies they're all around 10 or 11, which is decent.
They are made of paper without Defense skill, specially when facing Avenger, luck and mass Righteous Might all in one. And Necropolis has not any creature above 11 initiative, but the main problem is that necro units are not affected by morale effects. That’s why undeads play less turns in a fight = defend the position and let the enemy kill himself by throwing his attack units against your resilient cannon fodder army while your hero does the hard work.
He who wants to play necropolis offensively will only get loses and more loses.
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EDIT: By the way, I just played a pair of duels with a friend using Elvin’s duel map (tweaked a bit by us):
Necropolis (Deidre) =vs= Stronghold (Haggash) -->(DOWNLOAD)
Deidre lvl23
AT-1, DF-13, POW-15, KNW-9
Expert Necromancy/Mark of the Necromancer/Banshee Howl
Expert Summoning/Master of Earthblood/Fog Veil
Expert Dark/Master of Mind
Expert Defense/Vitality /Evasion/Power of Endurance
Expert Enlightenment/Intelligence/
Basic Sorcery
Haggash
AT-14, DF-6, POW-2, KNW-5
Expert Blood Rage/Might Over Magic/Memory of Our Blood/Powerful Blow
Expert Leadership/Recruitment/Aura of Swiftness/Battle Elation
Advanced Luck
Expert Offense/Battle Frenzy/Archery/Retribution
Expert Shatter Dark/Corrupt Dark/Detain Dark
Necropolis (Naadir) =vs= Sylvan (Ossir) -->(DOWNLOAD)
Naadir lvl28
AT-1, DF-15, POW-28, KNW-14
Expert Necromancy/Mark of the Necromancer/Banshee Howl
Expert Summoning/Master of Earthblood/Fog Veil
Expert Dark/Master of Curses/Master of Pain/Dark Renewal
Expert Defense/Vitality/Protection/Evasion
Expert Enlightenment/Intelligence/Dark Revelation
Expert Sorcery
Ossir lvl28
At-12, DF-17, POW-13, KNW-13
Expert Avenger/Rain of Arrows/Imbue Arrows/Dead Eye Shot
Expert Luck/Magic Resistance
Expert Enlightenment/Intelligence/Arcane Intuition
Expert Destructive/Master of Ice
Expert Defense/Evasion
Expert War Machines/Ballista/Triple Ballista/Imbue Ballista
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 22, 2008 02:58 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 15:01, 22 Oct 2008.
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Hey Final_Boss, good replays. Usually in my games with orcs vs necros it's the warmongers that remain and at that point it depends on what the necro forces are and if I have mana to keep spamming call of blood  Good timing as I was about to release the updated version of the map and I'm curious to hear your comments on balance.
Duel map beta version 1.2
It's basically the same map as before with some aesthetic changes and balance tweaks. Few rules as stated in the description, don't buy units from town, start on heroic, necro can only pick one stack from its garrison.
- Increased army strength to week 5 with modified growth ie I assume you build up to tier 4 week 1 and up to 7 with castle week 2.
- Most artifacts are now included except tomes, ring of speed, staff of the netherworld, sandals of the blessed, ring of caution, pendant of mastery, mask of equity, scrolls, elemental waistband and artifacts that do not have a battle purpose. The above are banned either because they are too powerful or they suck.
- Added artifact merchants for all factions and a gold pile that contains 30k to afford them.
- Added arcane library for haven and inferno. Sylvan and fortress are strong enough to wish for better spell availability, after all they may get dark that can complicate things for stronghold.
- Earthquake and rune of charge are banned, no comment.
- Divine vengeance is back. If it proves too powerful despite the recent nerf I will remove it in the next update.
- Haven can now train 20 units according to its wishes, as a given you have trained 7 archers.
- Necro keeps the extra troops it had and you pick one extra stack from your garrison - 4 wraiths, 6 lich masters, 13 vampire princes, 30 poltergeists or 130 skeleton warriors. ONLY one, I don't want to see anyone with more army than he is supposed to
- To weaken artificer I removed crown of sar issus from academy and gave them necromancer's helm instead. They may still get it but it's expensive and they would be missing on other artifacts they could buy.
- To weaken runelore I set as a rule to play on heroic so less resources. No more abuses, you should plan what you use.
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What I may do is add a hut for shatter dark on orcs since they are way too vulnerable at it.
Finally there are the scripts Asheera mentioned. If you are still up for it I'd like you to give 30k to all factions(50k for haven), 50 of all resources to haven, inferno, dungeon, necro, 80 of each for academy and unlimited movement.
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If you have any interesting replays with that post them here as usual and report on abuses or lack of balance. This version has not yet been tested properly so I'll give it sometime till the next tournament begins.
Eagerly awaiting the conclusion of the current one 
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 22, 2008 03:45 PM |
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Edited by Asheera at 17:48, 22 Oct 2008.
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I'm a little busy now, I'll do the script as soon as I can (I also have to check the map first )
Also, I'll set the resources to a specific value, so it won't matter Heroic or not
(after I do the script I'll tell you what to remove from the map (example: Conscripts))
EDIT: Should I set the resources to 50 for Haven and 50000 Gold or 55 and 60000 respectively? (since you also start with some on Heroic)
btw, shouldn't it be named "Duel Map 2.0" instead of 1.2?
UPDATE
Renamed the Map to Duel Map 2.0
Modified the Map's description, because:
- The difficulty is not important anymore.
- Necro doesn't need those troops in the town anymore. At the start of the game, the Necro player can choose one of those stacks through a pop-up window.
Removed all Conscripts and Gold piles because the script handles the resources now.
No more random weeks - it's only Week of Plague (I have no idea why this one)  but the creatures are still available for hire, so don't do it
Made unlimited movement through scripts. Every short period of time your movement points get refreshed to full capacity. So if you happen to have 0 movement points (shouldn't happen, but you never know) just be patient and wait a few secs - you'll get them back. I hope this doesn't screw Sim turns though.
DOWNLOAD
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 22, 2008 06:19 PM |
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Outstanding work, thanks a lot Ashie  Especially the necro popup window for necro is a nice touch.
Last night we played a few games with Joonas, necro vs dungeon that I won and inferno vs fortress where victory was his There was another game but he kept pressing auto because we chatted, not much point in that one 
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 22, 2008 07:00 PM |
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I forgot to mention that the script uses some functions available only in 3.1 (like the pop-up window)
But I guess nobody plays with 3.0 anymore, right?
* goes to check the replays *
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 24, 2008 12:01 AM |
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Version 2.1
All factions now have an arcane library, however certain factions have resource handicaps so as to be unable to buy all spells.
In particular:
- Sylvan can buy lvl 4 summoning but not lvl 5 due to phoenix-high druid combo and can buy no dark spells due to rain of arrows-blind/frenzy combo.
- Dwarves can buy no dark/summoning but still have 5 mercury/gems for rune of resurrection/thunderclap. Atm not sure if it's too little but with fine rune that should be 7-8 uses, I know for sure that it was outrageous with 10 of each resource. Also they have 10 wood/ore so they cannot abuse other runes.
- Inferno has frenzy by default and orcs start with fear my roar. It's their only decent counter to puppet master that I know of.
- A few more aesthetic changes.
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I'd like comments on artificer, training, avenger and runelore for the most part. Also divine vengeance, so far used it with a knight and it was decent.
Aaand.. What's up with those games?  Radar and Zamfir have to finish till Sunday or Asheera gets a cheap win, you don't want that do you?
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted October 24, 2008 12:16 AM |
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Erm, I would ban Div. Vengeance for Sylvan. It's simply insane if you get Empathy, + Expert Light + High Druids + Rain and Imbue Arrows.
(and honestly, it's not that difficult to get either)
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 24, 2008 12:18 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 03:10, 24 Oct 2008.
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I'm not so sure about that. Sylvan us hard to kill and therefore the spell will be barely decent for a long long time plus it drains too much mana. I'd depend more on destructive for damage to be honest. In any case it's a test to see if it can be reintroduced.
Edit: Two more replays with Joonas. Haven vs a destructive sylvan where he just fried me, now that was scary usage of chain lightning I managed to take down a good part of his army with DV though it could by no means save me. To think I had +8 spellpower from arties.
Next was fortress vs dungeon that I charged blindly with battlerage/power of speed and followed with armageddons till there was nothing left Though it was mostly decided by my artifacts, got the dragon armour(12 init on flamelords/bears) and phoenix cape.
Edit2: Version 2.2.
I copy paste the changes from 2.1 to have a better overview.
2.1
- Sylvan can buy lvl 4 summoning but not lvl 5 due to phoenix-high druid combo and can buy no dark spells due to rain of arrows-blind/frenzy combo.
- Dwarves can buy no dark/summoning but still have 5 mercury/gems for rune of resurrection/thunderclap. Atm not sure if it's too little but with fine rune that should be 7-8 uses, I know for sure that it was outrageous with 10 of each resource. Also they have 10 wood/ore so they cannot abuse other runes.
- Inferno has frenzy by default and orcs start with fear my roar. It's their only decent counter to puppet master that I know of.
- A few more aesthetic changes.
2.2
- Haven gets 60k gold and rest of the factions 40k. Therefore I introduce the rule of day 1 battle, no more waiting
- Priests removed from favoured enemies.
- Haven starts with resurrection.
- Fixed the bug of the map appearing twice in the list.
- Dwarven well no longer inaccessible.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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