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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted February 11, 2010 03:42 AM |
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Well they're basic perks so there probably won't be any entries that are a mouthful, which are the ones that can take some time. We did 2 perks each in the earlier rounds also.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 11, 2010 07:20 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
JollyJoker
Economics
Yuks - another Heroes 3 skill that was blissfully packed away as a perk. Yes, at least you amend it by making it level dependant which is necesary (as a perk of a skill). To your credit, the skill is now at least usefull, but also a bit boring.
Creativity: 6
Realism: 6
I agree. It's not that creative. However, it deals with a field that's wasteland in H5, and it offers a plethora of interesting perk chances.
In fact, if you play on impossible diff in H5, such a skill would become quite interesting.
I prefer to see that as a skill of Heroes FOUR that should have made it into Heroes 5.
In short, I think you underrate the skill. It's called ECONOMICS for a reason.
No doubt it would be useful - I would rather be worried that it's too powerful, given that with Mentor you would make a handful of goldmines for free very easily.
But my main concern is that it's simply too narrow. With the much slimmer skill-line presented in Heroes 5 - and a choice of a meager 5 skills on top of racial skill - each skill must present a varied and broadly useful set of options. So yes, bonuses apart from Gold would deffinitely be a good thing (like in Heroes 4). Notice that Heroes 4 Nobility also had another and completely different and very important function, namely the Nobility part - increasing creature growth.
The two sides of Nobility are now - rather unsuccesfully, admittedly - placed as perks under Luck and Leadership.
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What will happen now?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 11, 2010 08:57 AM |
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In the end I took that skill because it offers a WIDE variety of perks.
I may add (you may not believe it, but it's still true) that the Nobility skill for Heroes 4 is a child of mine - I had a very good contact to the NWC heroes4 developing team (remember "Maranthea"?) and slipped in a ton of suggestions; of course, with the direction the game was taking (and me at that stage of course not knowing about it), most, if not all of them were not feasible, but one or more skills dealing with changing "output" of things was definitely on my list of suggestions, and that was a part we talked about more detailed. It's certainly a small contribution, but still.
So. I'd have no problems to bang down, like, seven perks for "Economics".
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 11, 2010 10:32 AM |
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I'm not familiar with the H4 development team, but I think Nobility was an excellent skill. I think instead of Recruitement and Estates, I would much rather have had a skill that did something like Nobility, but I think the perk approach could have worked also, had they implemented it properly.
But like I said, I found your skill decent, but not overly exciting or creative.
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What will happen now?
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 11, 2010 10:55 AM |
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Edited by Fauch at 19:39, 12 Feb 2010.
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Quote:
EDIT: Since I didn't find any info on the prerequests for that skilled I guessed it was Sorcery. If not Fauch please enlighten me as to which skill is.
there are no prerequisites. it is a skill.
Magic training
Increases the level of mastery of creatures spells by 1
example :
the battle mage can cast magic fist basic and dispel advanced.
thanks to this perk, he can cast magic fist advanced and dispel expert.
the maximum level of mastery is expert.
the explosion ability of the horned overseer isn't affected.
the creature abilities "hexing attack", "blinding attack", "random spellcaster", "whip strike", "cursing attack" and "sorrow strike" are also affected, unless the spells are already cast at the expert level.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 11, 2010 11:07 AM |
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Quote:
I'm not familiar with the H4 development team, but I think Nobility was an excellent skill. I think instead of Recruitement and Estates, I would much rather have had a skill that did something like Nobility, but I think the perk approach could have worked also, had they implemented it properly.
But like I said, I found your skill decent, but not overly exciting or creative.
I agree: it's not overly exciting or creative - but it's not the SKILLS (in H5) that are exciting or creative, it's the PERKS (or would you disagree?).
If you go the Recruitment way in terms of skill, the H4 was is not possible because there is no continual creatuire growth. There are basically two ways to do it.
1) This would treat the Hero like an external creature dwelling. Clearly, this is not interesting for low level creatures, but too powerful for level 7s. Moreover it was a powerhouse for Dungeon, not to mention the ways to abuse this.
2) That leaves it the way I'd have liked the PERK for H5 - as a Recruitment made by the hero, so that creatures appear each week in the hero army.
Clearly you can make that a skill - but I like it better as perk(s).
The reason is the same as why Frenzy is better as Perk than as skill - you can manage it a lot better when you can do it in a very specific, well-defined way.
Of course that's only my opinion.  You are quite welcome to see it differently, and it's not that I would mind that or something. I just think that for skills the standards are a bit different than for perks, which is why we have a lot less skills in H5 than in H3 and many perks.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 11, 2010 12:05 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 12:09, 11 Feb 2010.
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note : I forgot to say it, but because of the mechanisms of the game, the following abilities also benefit from the skill magic support :
-explosion (horned overseer)
-mana feed (druid)
-power feed (druid)
-hexing attack (shaman)
-random spellcaster (djinn)
-cursing attack (shadow dragon)
-sorrow strike (ghost dragon)
maybe I forgot some of them.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 11, 2010 12:37 PM |
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@ Fauch
Quote:
the explosion ability of the horned overseer isn't affected.
Now, is it affected or not?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 11, 2010 01:15 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm not familiar with the H4 development team, but I think Nobility was an excellent skill. I think instead of Recruitement and Estates, I would much rather have had a skill that did something like Nobility, but I think the perk approach could have worked also, had they implemented it properly.
But like I said, I found your skill decent, but not overly exciting or creative.
I agree: it's not overly exciting or creative - but it's not the SKILLS (in H5) that are exciting or creative, it's the PERKS (or would you disagree?).
That is actually both a good and valid point. Indeed, apart from Sorcery and Enlightenment, the skills are almost carbon copies of previous skills, and not very fancy at that. So admittedly, a good skill does not need to be fancy - indeed, I think the best skills are probably those that are very simple yet at the same time add to a core part of the game. And I admit that gaining ressources is such a core element of the game.
I guess that's why this game has been a PERK contest rather than a SKILL contest - skills are simply not as exciting. But I guess it's also a challenge that can be made.
And about perks for my Combat skill - I guess with the current Heroes 5 system, it would probably have to be something along the lines of Stunning Blow, Excruciating Strike, etc. As the current combat system is, I'm not sure there are too many options - but different attack patterns could be incorporated I guess. The skill comes from a slightly different context, namely my Heroes 6 project which has a whole different Hero Combat mechanism.
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What will happen now?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 11, 2010 02:59 PM |
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I knew we wouldn't be far apart on this one.
Anyway, I don't meant any criticism of the rating; for the skills here the rating will come - in my opinion - by how many and how good the associated perks will be. I think.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 11, 2010 06:00 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 14:46, 13 Feb 2010.
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Quote:
@ Fauch
Quote:
the explosion ability of the horned overseer isn't affected.
Now, is it affected or not?
by the skill yes, by my perk no.
Power of the elements not for the competition
Your creatures benefit from the master of fire / ice / lightning effects each time they inflict damage with the right element.
the master of fire / ice / lightning perks aren't needed for this to work.
it works with the following spells, perks and creatures abilities :
master of fire effect (-25% defense only) :
fireball
firewall
armaggeddon
fiery wrath
hellfire
fire shield
incinerate? (not sure if it is fire damage)
explosion
searing aura (yeah, I know, it makes hell stallions imba, but they are already imba anyway)
fire wave (if it is fire damage)
flame strike (if it is fire damage)
magma shield
lava breath
master of ice effect :
ice bolt
winter ring
deep freeze
cold bones
cold steel
master of lightning effect :
lightning bolt
chain lightning
call lightning
presence of the storm
storm bolt (if it is lightning damage)
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 12, 2010 08:11 PM |
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Ok, here we go.
Circle of Resistance
All creatures with a spell book (ONLY!) combine their powers to create a Circle of Magic Resistance around the friendly army. The amount of Resistance gained is equal to (the formula looks complicated, but isn't):
Definition of terms for the formula:
a = number of casting creatures in hero army
b = general base weekly production of creature (for example, 5 for Mages)
[sqroot(2*a/b + 1/4) - 1/2]*3%.
The formula looks complicated but isn't. It's a mathematical representation of the following: Magic Resistance is upped in increments of 3%. These increments are measured by simple wqeekly population growths and follow the simple sum formula 1+2+3+4+5... and so on.
Examples: you have 1 mage in your army, so this is
[sqroot(2*1/5 + 1/4) - 1/2]*3% = 1.16%
With 7 mages in your army you get:
[sqroot(2*7/5 + 1/4) - 1/2]*3% = 3.74%
With 35 mages youu get:
[sqroot(2*35/5 + 1/4) - 1/2]*3% = 9.82%
With 500 mages you get:
[sqroot(2*1/5 + 1/4) - 1/2]*3% = 40.95%
With 60 Pit Fiends you get
[sqroot(2*60/2 + 1/4) - 1/2]*3% = 23.29%
Percentages and formula are of course open to fine-tuning! The aim here is to make it comparable with the Luck based perk which is 15%, which means that the percentage should be at around that figure on an average long map. For mages you need 75 to reach 15% with the actual formula. Since you are at 10% already with half of that I think this is okay (for other creatures the formula adjusts for weekly production). The next 10 mages will give you roughly 1% more at that stage. I guess, that for a rough estimation it would be ok.
If you don't want to bother with the mechanics - it is supposed to work that way that Resistance increases ever slower the bigger the stacks get.
All creatures in an army are counted, not stacks separately.
Dungeon racial ability works on this (reducing the Resistance).
This is a passive ability. This is an active HERO ability, that the hero must activate. Activation costs 50% Initiative. The Circle of Protection lasts sqroot(a/b), rounded up, turns.
Since it is Magic RESISTANCE, it stacks with the LUCK based perk and is an all-or-nothing check; Protection is checked afterwards.
Mana Exchange
This perk allows the exchange of mana between creatures and hero and vice versa; each exchange is made at a ratio of 2:1 (that is, to gain 1 Mana for one side you need 2 mana from the other side.
This is an ACTIVE HERO ability, and activation costs the Hero 50% of his or her current Initiative. The Hero can give or take mana.
If the hero TAKES mana from the casting creatures, ALL stacks of that creatures lose the mana; if the hero GIVES mana to a stack, only that stack gains mana.
Note: This is both more and less than the Mana Feed ability of the Druid upgrade. It's more since the exchange works both ways, and less because the conversion is only 50% effectivity. For the Druid upgrade the Mana Feed ability still works, if applicable, so the exchange unit to Hero is working better with the Druids.
Moreover it's a HERO ability and not a creature ability.
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mamgaeater
Legendary Hero
Shroud, Flying, Trample, Haste
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posted February 12, 2010 11:44 PM |
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Fast Mana
Casters in the hero's army have a 30% bonus to their initiative at the start of combat.
Quote:
Comments: Just so a caster can get a spell in before everyone else. Probably imba. the percentage is quite tweakable though.
Mana Return
When a friendly caster stack dies your hero gains the unused Mana points immediately during combat. Mana gained by the hero cannot exceed their usual mana limit.
Quote:
Comments: Helps the hero keep his/her mana high if caster stacks die. may be abuseable with any lower level casters being split up into groups of one. But to be honest its like paying a couple hundred gold for that amount of mana.
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Protection From Everything.
dota
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted February 13, 2010 09:13 AM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 18:24, 16 Feb 2010.
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Support magic mentoring
When hero visit magic shrine and learn new spell there is 20% chance that one of his/her casters will learn it as well. Mastery is always one level under the hero one (gets none for spells with no hero mastery). It can be given to other casters only from the same type, when they are in heros army and merged with the stack. However, if the entire stack is killed in future combat the spell is lost.
Mana placebo
If the hero visit a magic well it not only restore his mana but also gives 100% mana bonus to all casters during the next combat. The increase affect only the base mana.
... and turn them IMBA  But its fun  
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 13, 2010 02:45 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 04:41, 14 Feb 2010.
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Specialized army
Creatures can use their activated abilities once more per battle (of course it doesn't matter much for units who can use them as much as they want)
Moreover, they only use sqroot(85 * 85)% of their initiative to use an activated ability (it doesn't apply to the spellcaster ability)
it applies to every activated abilities except harpoon strike (because you could abuse it to shoot much faster. maybe flamestrike and stormbolt may be abused too much too?)
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted February 13, 2010 02:55 PM |
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Does that reduction also apply to abilities that aren't limited in number? Like incinerate from the Red Dragon?
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted February 13, 2010 09:37 PM |
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Joker wins the Overachiever Award for putting square roots in his perk.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 13, 2010 09:59 PM |
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Fortinately you don't need to know about them for the perk. That's why I put the arithmetics in green; I know that arithmetics standards are appalling...
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted February 16, 2010 06:24 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 18:24, 16 Feb 2010.
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I edited both perks a bit
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted February 16, 2010 06:53 PM |
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Haaaai me too~~~
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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