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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 26, 2009 01:22 AM |
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You are creating the problem yourself. we can move the perks wherever we want. after all teleport assault could fit very well in attack and light magic too. death march could fit in attack too.
Look at the alternative development plan on page 7, I already did it but it had consequences for the archery branch. Also read my previous post about war machines, the 'chain effect' that makes me need to redo many skills, we were already happy about.
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Estates has nothing to do with luck. Recruitment and estates on the same branch makes perfect sense. you've got more creatures to recruit and the gold to hire them.
Again, Look at the alternative development plan on page 7, check the new icon and the name: gambler's luck
Quote:
that makes sense since erratic mana works randomly. then we can have a branch in sorcery based on keeping mana.
I like the erratic mana idea, but it may require more complex icon editing, maybe with dead man's curse a full magic branch can be created in luck and all resources move to leadership. I will take a look at this.
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excruciating strike in luck for might heroes makes sense too since it's based on luck too.
Yes but i like the exc strike+stunning blow combo too much for heroes that want to focus on melee.
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what's the point if might and magic hero can learn exactly the same skills and perks?
It will take too much time to explain this, you will have to wait until I release the class-skillwheels. I promise there will be plenty of variation. The universal skillwheel needs to be ready first.
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted March 26, 2009 08:39 AM |
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Quote:
warlock's luck is based on luck, but could make sense in sorcery.
Rename it.
All skills like warlock's luck, should be ranemed in order to mach all classes not only one, wizzard with warlock's luck sounds funny...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 26, 2009 09:01 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
initially my approach was creating different set ups for every skill for might and magic classes, but later I decided this only makes things unnecessary difficult, especially for modding, but also for playing the game
what's the point if might and magic hero can learn exactly the same skills and perks?
They would still be different because there would be different chances for the skills to show up, and hence perks would not be equally accessible.
However, we can play the alternative perk scheme, that's not really a problem, the trouble comes when deciding which perks have relevance for which branch. What about Power Of Speed, for instance - is that a magic perk, or is it a might perk? And something like Retribution - is that Might only? Magic can have benefits of Retribution also, so personally I don't see any problem with them having access to it. And if requirements are Attack and Leadership, getting Retribution will in most cases not be very obvious for Magic Hero anyway.
Just to stir a bit of mud in the pond, here are a couple of alternative layouts for some skills:
 
Notice how Resistance now has a Might branch which improves Resistance with Dwarven Luck, while it also has a Magic branch with Erratic Mana and Warlock's Luck. Soldier's Luck focuses completely on doing damage.
Notice that we're moving very close to my 4-branch system from previously here.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 26, 2009 09:12 AM |
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preparation in attack? interesting idea.
I don't get why power of speed is after archery? it seems to make more sense after frenzy.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 26, 2009 09:19 AM |
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Hmm yes, Stunning Blow and Power Of Speed could equally well swap places.
As for Preparation, since it relies equally on Attack and Defence, it could just go to Attack (rename it First Strike). I even have a fealing that it was originally planned for being in Attack, there is another in-game icon for Preparation which was later discarded (I haven't got it on this computer) which is remarkably similar to the one for Offensive Formation - I'm just guessing here, but I had the impression that maybe Nival initially planned Preparation in Attack, and then later moved it to Defence and introduced Offensive Formation instead.
Not that it really matters anyway - point was that I was a perk slot short in Defence, and while moving Last Stand to Light Magic did do the trick, it was not quite the perfect solution, since Last Stand and Guardian Angel is a bit too similar.
EDIT > We could also put Offensive Formation with Archery since it is, as the icon suggests, mostly of use for Archers. That would put Power Of Speed after Tactics which I find perhaps the best solution of all three.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 26, 2009 01:36 PM |
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Some commentary:
I think if offensive formations is in second row, defensive formations should be in second row too, because I consider these skills equally powerful. I don't like the idea of having stand your ground and defensive formations in one branch because it forces the player too much to become lazy on tactical thinking and simply don't move anything.
Preparation in Attack is not a bad idea to create space in defense, but we are actually moving the problem to attack now.
I think attack and defense should not have more than two branches with magic skills and/or magic prerequisities. I still like my attack plan on page 7 with offensive formations between archery and flaming arrows, and power of speed + teleport assault as magic branch. Flaming arrows doesn't need master of fire anymore in that scenario, so its a full might branch. But I'm good with my newer plan too. I think it's better to move warlock's luck to sorcery (with soldier's luck as prerequisite) and bring light magic to it's original state with refined mana. I'm not really fan of the complex resistance branch, nor do I think erratic mana belongs in luck. It may have a random parameter, but it has nothing to do with being lucky (from the viewpoint of the ingame character, not from the player). Excruciating strike (renamed) in luck is better, but I don't like the icon (even with rainbow) and I don't know an alternative. We are also losing our melee specialists branch, which I consider important for knights and barbarians.
Fiery wrath and refined mana in destructive and light have at least great benefit for the shatters, because these skills are really low on perks. Also more important: the current set up makes it extremely difficult for might classes to get them. They would be better of with shatter destructive or light magic as prerequisites (in comparison to sorcery and master of fire).
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 26, 2009 01:41 PM |
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Quote:
Rename it. All skills like warlock's luck, should be ranemed in order to mach all classes not only one, wizzard with warlock's luck sounds funny...
Yes there are going to be a lot of renames and more suitable icons in the final plan, but when I released my plan on page 7 with many icon changes, there was a lot of misuderstanding so for the discussion I stick to the original names.
Quote:
there is another in-game icon for Preparation which was later discarded
Can you give me the exact name in the pack, any extra icon I can get may be useful.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 26, 2009 02:04 PM |
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It's called Prepared Position and looks like this:
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 26, 2009 03:12 PM |
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Well, at least that can become a new shieldwall specialization based on shadow dancer (nerfed).
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 26, 2009 04:43 PM |
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New idea:
Since silent stalker includes all qualities from scouting, we can also make silent stalker the base perk (suggested name: stealth) and remove scouting from the game. then the branch can be:
stealth->power of speed->teleport assault.
We can nerf silent stalker to +8 vision instead of +12 vision, if necessary.
I tested nature wrath and I'm sure now it can only work for sylvan.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 27, 2009 02:54 PM |
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Let me give you an update.
I'm currently working on setting up the hero framework. I ran into an annoying bug that seems impossible to be solved: the new classes can only be range attackers!. I think I have found a way to turn this bug into a feature. First I swap the runemage and necromancer with death knights and warlords internally. So the might classes can be melee. The magic classes (like runemage, renegade) will get new animations for performing their normal attack. I have already succeeded in creating a stormstrike attack for the runemage.
For the framework, I'm currently working out ideas for the starting skills, let me first quote elvin (TOH, dated january 2009) to give you some background:
Quote:
Let's face it, we all hate some heroes' starting skills - many of them actually. In the past there have been a few attempts to discuss what they should be to incorporate them in one universal mod but unfortunately there are always disagreements and a consensus has never been reached.
I'm curious how you would feel if all heroes started with advanced racial, one ability and +1 to the least common primary skill, for instance +1 knowledge to necro. That way you have the freedom to choose your own build and heroes would no longer be be categorized as earlygame or endgame. Of course they would still be different as they keep their unique specialties.
It's easier to use examples of the system I want to go to (it's not entirely like elvins. Most heroes are constructed like this (example irina):
Basic Counterstrike
Basic Luck -> resistance
I want to turn this into this:
Basic Counterstrike, Benediction
Basic Luck
The alternative is:
Advanced Counterstrike, Benediction
I think the alternative (Elvin) is not a good idea, because in that case the player doesn't have enough time (2nd level up already) before it is FORCED to pick a secondary, and it could easily happen logistics+shatter dark shows up for a knight while playing a small grass map vs Sylvan. Every hero should start with a generally useful secondary skill (for a knight leadership, defense, attack, luck are would be good) and WITHOUT a perk. Because otherwise the player is not able to choose its desired skill path. I think every class can have it's own racial starting perk, so all knights start with benediction, all death knights with banshee howl, all necromancers with mark of the necromancer etc. There can be a few exceptions: Heroes with flamewielder ability can start with master of fire because the choice is completely obvious.
Other balance solutions I want to implement:
1. No heroes start with any war machines, not even the heroes with war machine specialties. Only magic heroes start with one spell. necromancers start with raise death.
2. All factions pay the same prices for all war machines.
Some alternatives to 1.:
-all might heroes start with ammo cart
-all might heroes start with ammo cart, all magic heroes with first aid tent + spell
-all might heroes start with ballista, all magic heroes with first aid tent + spell
Power Heroes:
Since I have problems with the lack of specializations and IMBA heroes can also have good purposes (more challenging AI, fun games, beginning players trying higher difficulty levels etc). I want to implement 1 so called 'Power hero' for every class (Idea Fiur). The Power hero will be marked in the hero selection screen as being IMBA. Playing a power hero vs a normal hero is obviously cheating, but playing power hero vs power hero is OK. Also playing a normal hero vs power hero is good for providing a better challenge. About 90% of the heroes in the game will be normal balanced heroes, 10% will be power heroes.
These are the amounts of heroes I currently have:
Haven:8+8
Sylvan: 7+7
Necropolis:8+8
Inferno: 7+7
Fortress: 6+6
Academy: 6+6
Dungeon: 8+8 (8 males and 8 females exactly!)
Stronghold:8+4
I will first max them all out, then we can remove heroes easily later if desired.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 27, 2009 08:27 PM |
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Not sure I understand all you say, but I hate the idea of these power heroes if the random hero function does not separate these, because playing a random hero game just to be pwned by some imba hero is kind of pointless, not to mention the problem if such an über hero shows up in tavern - I doubt we can program AI not to use the hero if it gets the possibility.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 27, 2009 09:32 PM |
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Quote:
Not sure I understand all you say, but I hate the idea of these power heroes if the random hero function does not separate these, because playing a random hero game just to be pwned by some imba hero is kind of pointless, not to mention the problem if such an über hero shows up in tavern - I doubt we can program AI not to use the hero if it gets the possibility.
I understand what you mean, I first attempted to make all heroes balanced, but this leaves me with a boring set up (a lot of logistics, mystic copying) and they are not going to be balanced anyway, even if I remove all campaign hero specs and nerf all op specializations that can be nerfed, heroes like ingvar and haggash still remain. One problem is I cannot mod their specs and I cannot change their starting troops to tier1+tier2+tier3. Also the heroes I'm talking about are not having more primaries and secondaries nor are any of the following specs being used: vessel of elrath, dragonblessed, death lord. I'm merely talking about master of elements, paragon knight, aura of swiftness. It's difficult to make everyone happy because I know a lot of people actually like to play with them and/or against them to make some more challenge. In the current set up there is much more variation and gameplay opportunities, but there is a random hero problem. On the other hand there has always been this hero problem, people decide to play yrbeth vs Svea and Ingvar sits in the tavern.
It is possible to make an extra mod that removes them from all original maps, but it is a lot of work. All in all it's very difficult to make a decision.
EDIT: I've changed my mind, the power Heroes are out. I have done the following tweaking to make more specs useful in a balanced set up:
aura of swiftness+intimidate: 0,5% increase instead of 1 %
shadow dancer: 1% increase instead of 2%
swarm queen: 2x as effective
disrupter: 2x as effective
swift striker: half as effective (maybe 2/3 better?)
centaur commander: initiative increase 0,5% instead of 1%
king of the stone halls: rune of magic control
master of elementals: Don't know if i would use it, maybe I can move it to dungeon because their units are too valuable to be used as meat shield for producing elementals.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 28, 2009 05:25 PM |
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New approach gets my seal of approval. 
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 28, 2009 07:59 PM |
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king of the stone halls may be imba with any rune 
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted March 28, 2009 08:03 PM |
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Quote:
shadow dancer: 1% increase instead of 2%
Isn't that a bit weak? At level 20 you get the same result as Evasion perk, and a specialty is usually as good as a perk at level 13 or so (if I remember well)
Maybe make it 1.5%?
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 29, 2009 01:05 AM |
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This time I have some really bad news,
The system with shatters for other classes is not going to work out and creating a second stronghold class is not going to be possible. Witch Huts are messing up the system. When a class has for example dark magic replaced by shatter dark magic it still learns dark magic from the witch hut. This gives classes the ability to learn 2x the same perk. The automatic conversion for the barbarian is not working for other classes, not even the shaman. To make things even worse a shaman starts with a normal spellbook but cannot learn any spells, but they can learn all skills (magic schools, 2x enlightment etc). It's sad I didn't notice this earlier. Maybe I will find a solution at a certain point, but until then the plan will be 8 + 7. I can still keep the current hero set up for stronghold with 8 male barbarians + 4 shamans all focusing on countering one magic school. As a specialization they can have extra spellpower and start with might over magic + a shatter skill. There development will be equal to the barbarians however.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 29, 2009 03:58 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 15:58, 29 Mar 2009.
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most logical solution :
barbarians : 4 magic schools. 0% chance to get.
shamans : 4 shatter magic skills.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 29, 2009 04:07 PM |
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Quote:
most logical solution :
barbarians : 4 magic schools. 0% chance to get.
shamans : 4 shatter magic skills.
To make that work the shaman needs internally the ID of the barbarian, but the barbarian with internal shaman ID has a normal spellbook and cannot learn any warcries or spells.
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SimonaK
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted March 29, 2009 04:46 PM |
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Edited by SimonaK at 16:51, 29 Mar 2009.
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yes,
and...moreover, none of heroes can get warcries or spells from barbarian town if their class is not exactly « HERO_CLASS_BARBARIAN »
so, that needs to be hex-edited....
same thing for Haven town and the training school, heroes must have exactly « HERO_CLASS_KNIGHT » to be able training.
for preserve town, if the PrimarySkill of heroes is not « HERO_SKILL_AVENGER » then the Avenger Guild from the town will not work.
Ultimate skill Rage of the Elements doesn't work if the hero has not « HERO_CLASS_WARLOCK »
You can hex-edited these terms for a new class name....but only one class will be able to make work these stuffs...
so, a might knight hero can be able training but not magic ones...
a might preserve hero can be able to have ennemy but not magic ones....
for mini-arties making...might wizard or magic wizard?
and so on....
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