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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 12, 2009 11:18 AM |
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@Simonak:
Your goals are difficult to understand to me, but it doesn't matter. I already started modding the skills.xdb manually so using a program over a modified skills.xdb would only create more risks for bugs. I have found out that most of the work in this mod is involved with adjusting the heroes, although the skills.xdb should not be underestimated.
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SimonaK
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted March 12, 2009 10:29 PM |
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Edited by SimonaK at 04:09, 13 Mar 2009.
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Quote:
Sorry, but that would completely eliminate the purpose of this mod, so what you did is a complete no-go in this context.
I completly agree with you. my mod is a kind of otherwise of this one.
that is not a problem for you or for me, if I dislike the prerequisites perk system and I have destroyed it.
For my share, prerequisites are just the fact to have 3 perks per competences / 5 competences as possible.
that does'nt mean that logic is missing...a Knight or any hero cannot learn Herald Of Death if he doesn't have Necromancy skill yet or any hero cannot learn Gate Master if he doesn't have Gating, etc
finally even if I think different, I like your project and the enthousiasm and initiative you have to make it.
Quote:
@Simonak:
Your goals are difficult to understand to me, but it doesn't matter. I already started modding the skills.xdb manually so using a program over a modified skills.xdb would only create more risks for bugs. I have found out that most of the work in this mod is involved with adjusting the heroes, although the skills.xdb should not be underestimated.
Risks of error is greater with manual coding.
I gave my files just to show that is surely better to create file .xdb by programming instead of manually
especially when the work is huge.
perhaps too, my files can help to understand how to manage some skilltype perks about classes, how to use SKILLTYPE_SPECIAL_PERK, SKILLTYPE_STANDART_PERK, SKILLTYPE_CLASS_PERK, SKILLTYPE_UINQUE_PERK (and not UNIQUE  ) etc, etc...
Moreover, Nival never edited manually their own Skills.xdb..... (I hope it to them!)
my Skills.xdb takes 1 second to generate and it's possible to change a lot of things inside just by modifing one lign in the code.
then personnally if I would have to make a new Skills.xdb for a 2 dual classes mod, I would make it by a program which is able to re-create (write) the new file from a particular database.
then, also this same program and database will be able to be used to create the corresponding skillwheel and others stuff.
so, you change something in Skills.xdb then SkillWheel falls automatically updated.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 13, 2009 11:30 AM |
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Well, my experience with automatic xml creating programs is that they only work if the default xdb is exactly as how the program knows it.
But let's get back to the mod, I have read through some interesting TOH discussions, especially the TOH balance mod and found some serious balance issues in the current plan:
-Triple ballista needs in inner circle or more prerequisities
I suggest: ballista -> runic machines (renamed) -> triple ballista
Or otherwise: ballista+archery -> triple ballista -> runic machines
-Flaming arrows needs (a lot) more prerequisities
I suggest: archery + master of fire for all classes, archery+corrupt destruction for barbarian. Also makes sense if fiery wrath is coming next.
Maybe Triple ballista can become unavailable for magic classes, they can reach flaming arrows a lot easier. For might classes the full combo: flaming arrows + runic machines + triple ballista is difficult to get because of low chances to learn destructive.
Maybe an extra prerequisite for divine guidance after recruitment is needed to, (master of wrath probably), Nival mostly used unique skill perks for these situations but that makes it difficult for people to memorize. I still hope to keep the system as simple as possible.
EDIT: Update!
Still working on this, I think I just solved the logistics puzzle, because logistics is overcrowded with skills and there is no room behind navigation I moved some to leadership:
recruitment -> march for glory -> aura of swiftness
diplomacy -> empathy -> (faction specific skills) or artificial glory
estates -> divine guidance -> teleport assault
March for glory is a new generic skill based on death march, it uses the icon of familiar ground. The new branches seem to make sense, one contains the magic abilities the other speed improving skills.
Logistics then looks like this:
scouting -> stalker -> (know your enemy)
pathfinding -> warpath -> snatch (swift gating for inferno)
navigation
Another idea of mine concerning luck:
Protection -> resistance -> luck of the Barbarian
Now luck of the barbarian can be used as generic skill without being an OP combo with dwarven luck.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
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SimonaK
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted March 15, 2009 04:58 PM |
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Edited by SimonaK at 05:10, 16 Mar 2009.
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Triple ballista works without ballista perk...then it's 2 shots that gives....
Triple ballista (alone) = 2 shots
In my mod, triple ballista is renamed « Enforced ballista » and of course can be to learn without prerequistes.
Just this perk that gives to hero a second shot but not so migth...
If the hero has also ballista perk, another shot is added and the might is increased (ballista skill)
So, I imagine for your mod some ideas of possibility.
ex: Magic class can get « Enforced ballista » but never to get 3 shots with perks. and hoping to be able to get 3 shots with the Ring of Machine Affinity and always to know that never their ballista will be "might" as might (ballista skill)
oooh, also: don't forget it's possible for others classes than barbarian to learn shatter skills, so don't miss the opportunity to use it for magic classes. Ex: Magic Necromancer should have Shatter Light or Shatter for Dungeon should be a nice side of Irresistible Magic.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 16, 2009 02:06 PM |
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@Simonak:
Your ideas are not bad, but are more suitable for 'unbalanced fun mods. The focus of this mod is mainly to improve the skill system and create some kind of 'unofficial expansion pack' that creates improved balanced gameplay suitable for all purposes: campaigns, scenario's, multiplayer, hot seat etc.
That being said I'm still puzzling with the logistics problem. My latest solution still has problems. I took too much out of logistics and teleport assault in leadership is a bad idea because it will be too difficult to obtain by magic classes.
Im currently thinking about this:
Attack:
tactics -> power of speed -> teleport assault
(power of speed needs arcane training)
Leadership:
recruitment -> divine guidance -> aura of swiftness
estates -> artificial glory -> retribution
(divine guidance needs master of wrath)
Logistics:
pathfinding -> warpath -> (faction specific skill or death march)
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SimonaK
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted March 16, 2009 10:01 PM |
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Edited by SimonaK at 22:37, 16 Mar 2009.
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Giving triple-ballista without ballista perk ---> unbalanced fun mods?
this perk adds just a shot to the ballista!
Ballista perk = +1 shot and ballista's power increased
Triple ballista = +1 shot (power not increased)
So you see that "Triple ballista" is just text. a text which has a sense only when this perk is forward of other one.
I don't think to make a new standart perk from a special one is automatically meaning "unbalanced"
Some perks are already standard for a class and special for others...
You know I just wish to share some ideas about some knowledges...nothing of more.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 16, 2009 10:49 PM |
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Allright, nevermind, if you want to share your knowledge that's great. Do you know if it possible to make 'back to the void' available to all factions? Because it is connected with shatter summoning.
On a side note: I just found out offensive and defensive formations do indeed work for all factions!, the effect only becomes visible after the tactics phase. So I'm currently again reorganizing the skilltrees and making them available after tactics and evasion.
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SimonaK
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted March 17, 2009 03:03 AM |
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Edited by SimonaK at 03:21, 17 Mar 2009.
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Quote:
Allright, nevermind, if you want to share your knowledge that's great. Do you know if it possible to make 'back to the void' available to all factions? Because it is connected with shatter summoning.
Sure.
It enough to add HERO_SKILL_SHATTER_SUMMONING_MAGIC into HeroClass.xdb to each faction and
to give too a prob for. Example for Knight:
<ID>HERO_CLASS_KNIGHT</ID>
<obj>
<NameFileRef href="HeroClass/HeroClassKnight.txt"/>
<SkillsProbs>
...
<Item>
<SkillID>HERO_SKILL_SHATTER_SUMMONING_MAGIC</SkillID>
<Prob>2</Prob>
</Item>
...
then you open Skills.xdb and you search the "Back to the Void" perk ID
You add a class to the perk (in this case, Knight) and you put to it the dependencies you want
here, only the shatter summoning competence is enough to the Knight to obtain "Back to the Void" but
you can put any perk you wish....
<Item>
<ID>HERO_SKILL_DEATH_TO_NONEXISTENT</ID>
<obj>
...
<BasicSkillID>HERO_SKILL_SHATTER_SUMMONING_MAGIC</BasicSkillID>
<SkillPrerequisites>
<Item>
<Class>HERO_CLASS_BARBARIAN</Class>
<dependenciesIDs>
<Item>HERO_SKILL_MIGHT_OVER_MAGIC</Item>
</dependenciesIDs>
</Item>
<Item>
<Class>HERO_CLASS_KNIGHT</Class>
<dependenciesIDs>
<Item>HERO_SKILL_SHATTER_SUMMONING_MAGIC</Item>
</dependenciesIDs>
</Item>
...
another example, with inferno this time, which needs "Sap Magic" to obtain "Back to the Void"
<Item>
<Class>HERO_CLASS_DEMON_LORD</Class>
<dependenciesIDs>
<Item>HERO_SKILL_MAGIC_CUSHION</Item>
</dependenciesIDs>
</Item>
Quote:
On a side note: I just found out offensive and defensive formations do indeed work for all factions!, the effect only becomes visible after the tactics phase. So I'm currently again reorganizing the skilltrees and making them available after tactics and evasion.
Yes, It's one of the things that I noted with the MOD that I released last december. Perhaps unbalanced but helping to know
this kind of things
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=28399
Note: the HeroClass.xdb and the Skills.xdb from the mod of this link are different of those I gave before in this thread because they don't allow to get any racial skill to any hero.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 17, 2009 12:54 PM |
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Yes, but now the knight needs shatter summoning first, I want it to be part of the summoning magic skill and still keep it available for the barbarian in shatter summoning.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 17, 2009 06:00 PM |
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Quote:
On a side note: I just found out offensive and defensive formations do indeed work for all factions!, the effect only becomes visible after the tactics phase. So I'm currently again reorganizing the skilltrees and making them available after tactics and evasion.
We have too many skills then.
Humm - maybe we should make 4 branches in each skill? 
I'm pressed for time these days, but I have a lot of ideas almost ready for posting. Maybe tonight.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 17, 2009 07:11 PM |
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Quote:
We have too many skills then.
Yes, but strangely after adding offensive and defensive formations as follows...
tactics->offensive formations->retribution
evasion->defensive formations->last stand
...I solved the puzzle (to my feeling), I decided to remove navigation (but still keep it available in the game)
Now logistics looks like this:
scouting -> disguise and reckon -> precision (new skill based on rage of the forest)
pathfinding -> warpath -> snatch
Death march -> (faction specific skills or power of speed) -> teleport assault
And leadership:
recruitment -> divine guidance -> aura of swiftness
diplomacy -> empathy -> faction specific skills
power of endurance has moved to the protection branch:
protection -> endurance (magic)or resistance (might) or faction specific skill -> luck of the barbarian
Now I have all skills in a logical and balanced position
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 17, 2009 09:45 PM |
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I'll post some of my ideas here now. I haven't worked over the whole thing, so I'll focus on the parts that I've worked with during the last time. The full skill wheel can be seen here, but some things (particularly magic skills) are not worked through in detail.
Moving perks from racial perks to common perks
This is a subject I'd like to address specifically. I've moved a number of perks (Retaliation Strike, Mark Of The Damned, Empowered Spells, Banshee Howl) to the common skills. The reason why I've done this is double: 1) Some of these will open the possibility of making certain ultimate abilities open for all factions - this will be Unstoppable Charge, Howl Of Terror, and maybe even Rage Of The Elements; and 2) to fill the gaps so we can for so far as possible have a full 3x3 perk system.
Attack
My original approach was to include Offensive Formation, but since I thought that didn't work as per previous post, I then removed it. Now it may go back in.
Attack now has three branches:
Battle Frenzy - Mark Of The Damned - Stunning Blow focuses on Damage - unit damage and hero direct damage. Excruciating Strike would fit well here also, but now has been moved to Luck (more on this later).
Archery - Flaming Arrows - Fiery Wrath focuses on Ranged Attack and magic damage.
Tactics - Power Of Speed - Unstoppable Charge focuses onSpeed - I'd replace Unstoppable Charge with Offensive Formation given new information that it works.
If a 4-branch system is approached, Excruciating Strike - Mark Of The Damned - Stunning Blow would be obvious.
Defence
As per MagnoMagu's suggestion, Barbarian Luck is now Barbarian Resistance, which actually makes good sense.
Other branches are:
Evasion - Stand Your Ground - Preparation focuses on optimising your Defence action.
Vitality - Power Of Endurance - Last Stand focuses on optimising Survivability.
Defensive Formation is now in spare. It would seem to fit best in a brach which is: Stand Your Ground - Defensive Formation - Preparation. A possibility for a four-branch system?
Leadership
Radical changes here! Leadership is notoriously low on perks, so Retribution and Retaliation Strike has gone here.
This skill has been a REAL chalenge - the perfect branch focusing has been VERY difficult to find, and I'm not sure this is it, but I have some good points.
Estates - Aura Of Swiftness - Divine Guidance. Estates is a pure placeholder here. Rest of perks focus on Speed.
Recruitement - Retaliation Strike - Retribution. The theme is the leaders connection with his units - in recruiting them, protecting them, and increasing their damage.
Diplomacy - Artifical Glory - Empathy - this focuses on positive morale effects, i.e. adding them to War Machines and Hero himself.
The challenge of the Leadership perks are to balance the branches - there are some very powerful perks here (Divine Guidance, Retribution, Empathy, Aura Of Swiftness) and then a couple of very poor perks (Recruitement, Estates) which need to be distributed somewhat evenly on the three branches. For instance, one branch cannot contain both Divine Guidance and Retribution, as that would be very overpowered.
Luck
I really like this setup, and it's much more intuitive than the Leadership line-up.
Resistance - Dwarven Luck - Dead Man's Luck focuses on Magic Resistance. I might add Magic Mirror here in inner circle!
Ressourcefulness - Spoils Of War - Warlock's Luck - this is a bit more random, Warlock's Luck comes in here instead of Tear Of Asha vision, which is for now out (until we go forth with 4 branches!).
Soldiers Luck - Excrutiating Strike - Elven Luck focuses on damage and attacks - Hero attacks, and army attack damage and effects.
Sorcery
Mana Regeneration - Arcane Excellence - Distract - focus here is gaining mana.
Magic Insight - Arcane Brilliance - Counterspell - focus is learning spells.
Arcane Training - Erratic Mana - Empowered Spells - focus is to conserve mana.
I added Empowered Spells to fill the gap, but it is a perk that can be useful for many factions, not only Warlock.
____________
What will happen now?
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SimonaK
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted March 17, 2009 09:57 PM |
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Edited by SimonaK at 22:02, 17 Mar 2009.
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Quote:
Yes, but now the knight needs shatter summoning first, I want it to be part of the summoning magic skill and still keep it available for the barbarian in shatter summoning.
I had a doubt you had this idea. but it is not possible to give 2 diff classes for a same perk.
So if you want that kight has "Back to the Void" without Shatter, you must to move "Back to the Void" out of shatter summoning
Quote:
Humm - maybe we should make 4 branches in each skill?
I always wanted it!
but I'm talking about a real 4 perks per competences ...
with that, I think even level 39 to 40 you can still learn somethings 
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 17, 2009 11:11 PM |
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Sorry for the large images I'm a little noobish with this,
@Alcibiades: I'm afraid you are thinking a little too freely now. It is not possible to make unique skill perks or ultimate skills available for other factions unless we disconnect them from the unique skills, so they cannot longer appear in the designated 4 squares in the hero info screen. Since we already destroy a lot of variation by making an universal skillwheel I like your old work more. Here is my improved version of the original plan, as you can see all squares are perfectly filled with skills that can work for all factions. Of course some skills need icon changes and some name changes or both.(death march, boneward, nature wrath etc.)
Some skills are going to need extra prerequisities:
-tactics->preparation
-archery->triple ballista
-master of fire->flaming arrows
-master of pain->plague tent
Some more I don't remember right now
I may still be wrong about the power of some skills, maybe formations should be in the inner circle instead of last stand and retribution.
There are also a few skills that can be nerfed, like stormwind.
Magic:
Might:
Here are the skills that fill the gaps:
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 18, 2009 08:41 AM |
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Quote:
Sorry for the large images I'm a little noobish with this,
@Alcibiades: I'm afraid you are thinking a little too freely now. It is not possible to make unique skill perks or ultimate skills available for other factions unless we disconnect them from the unique skills, so they cannot longer appear in the designated 4 squares in the hero info screen.
I know - but I think I've finally cracked the system!
I'm working on a 4 x 3 skill system now, so each skill has not 3 but 4 branches, and suddenly, all the pieces seem to fall into place. Just wait til you see it.
And yes, it means I move a lot of perks including ultimate ones from racial skills to common skills, but it fits REALLY nicely.
Updates to come.
____________
What will happen now?
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 18, 2009 11:42 AM |
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Quote:
I'm working on a 4 x 3 skill system now, so each skill has not 3 but 4 branches, and suddenly, all the pieces seem to fall into place. Just wait til you see it.
And yes, it means I move a lot of perks including ultimate ones from racial skills to common skills, but it fits REALLY nicely.
Maybe I should wait commenting before you finish it but to prevent you from doing work that doesn't pay off later please rethink the following problems:
-4x3 means you have to wait for 4 skills cycling to get the base skill you want, that's worse then branches with 1 -> 2 split ups.
-what happens with the unique skill perks?, are you replacing them?
-I have experimented with swapping ultimates and unique skill perks in the past and the problem is they no longer appear in the correct place in the hero info screen
-The system I posted above doesn't lack space, all skills are used. I even have two place left after estates. I can add artificial glory -> retribution there if there is a balance problem with attack, I could also place the resource skills from luck there to make more space in luck.
-I don't know how you think about it, but for me it is important skill paths are logical. So I don't like spoils of war -> warlock's luck, but I like flaming arrows -> fiery wrath. I also don't like Tactics -> power of speed -> offensive formations. Because then a might class learns a magic skill to get a mighty tactical skill. I know this makes the puzzle a lot more difficult, it was the main reason why it took me so long to create this.
EDIT: Oh and one last and probably most important thing: Since I thought we were pretty much set on most of the skills in the 3x3 system I already implemented the whole thing in the skills.xdb It isn't difficult to me to make some adjustments based on discussions, but implementing a whole new system makes me need to do it all over.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 18, 2009 05:33 PM |
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Allright I have a problem, I can't make the classes working in the editor. When I install my mod as a .pak file in the data folder and place a generic runemage on a map, the 6 warlords are missing. when I place a warlord from the scenario heroes it says: class none.
Does anyone know the map editor needs to be hex-edited too? Maybe in the same way as the NCF map editor? (Simonak to the rescue?)
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SimonaK
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted March 19, 2009 12:47 AM |
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Edited by SimonaK at 04:10, 19 Mar 2009.
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The hardest to hex-edit is, of course, the Editor. not to change some bytes inside which is hard
but more all modifications around it like especially the file « index.bin » from data.pak
I've never seen your .pak so I cannot understand what is the problem exactly.
for now, I can say:
- Yes, the Editor must be modified to add 8 other classes like the exe game.
- For each new objects, their AdvMapObjectLink editor must be well-defined in « index.bin » (it's not easy)
and also existing in the .pak mod
If you don't have new objects to add, then perhaps only the editor exe modified will be enough.
Meanwhile, go on your tests from the game hex-edited instead of the editor by editing « map.xdb » yourself.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 19, 2009 07:14 AM |
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MagnoMagus >
I hear what you're saying, and I'm not sure we'll stick to what I'm working with right now in the end, but trust me, it's a MUCH better solution in a lot of ways.
And I know there are some isues that needs to be addressed - for instance, my initial approach was to simply leave the missing perks of the racial skills open. I still aim for that solution, but had a rather radical idea in the shower this morning (that's where I get most of my ideas ), which will make this a much smaller issue than it sounds like. It will require some technical steps which I'm not yet certain of how to accomplish, but I believe it must be possible, and it'll be a major revolution of skill system imo.
More later - have to leave for work now!
____________
What will happen now?
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 20, 2009 10:14 AM |
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@Simonak: Thanks
@Alcibiades: Allright, I'll just wait...
I want to inform you my presence at HC may be a bit random the next few weeks because of problems with my internet connection. I also will not be able to upload anything significant. In about two weeks the problems are expected to be solved. In the meantime I'm still working on the mod, so keep posting ideas I will review everything. I have also been thinking myself especially about the shatter skills. I think instead of making all available to each class we could replace some useless magic skills by shatter skills, so every class can have a unique combination.
For example the knight (most mighty class after barbarian) could have this combo:
light magic - shatter dark - shatter destructive - shatter summoning
then a death knight can have this:
shatter light - dark magic - summoning magic - shatter destuctive
heretic:
shatter light - dark magic - summoning magic - destructive magic
wizard:
still learns all magic skills.
As you can see every class can have a unique combo based on how mighty or magical it is. This system is very easy to implement and creates much more variation between classes. It also adds a lot of new gameplay. i don't see any balance issues as long as a class is not able to learn both the magic skill and shatter of one school, because then it can press an advantage.
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This thread is pages long: 
