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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 24, 2009 08:44 PM |
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know your enemy as a global perk?
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 25, 2009 12:59 AM |
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Who says Necromancer has only Necropolis creatures in his army?
In the few situations they have them, they get a morale penalty. So it doesn't help much. There are many skills in leadership that help them more: divine guidance, aura of swiftness, even recruitment and estates. If it's really that important to you I can try to change it.
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Swift Mind IS that powerful, and Arcane Intuition is not that bad - remember that Arcane Intuition + Scouting is current prerequisite for Swift Mind for magic classes, and many players still ban Swift Mind for being imbalanced. We could make a Sorcery prerequisite instead, such as Arcane Training or Arcane Brilliance, which would make it more accessible to magic heroes.
Allright, I believe you on this, scouting will be prereq for Swift Mind.
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My suggestion to solution was simply to swap Nature's Wrath with Stunning Blow for Sylvan, so that factions had Battle Frenzy > Stunning Blow > Excruciating Strike except Sylvan, which has Battle Frenzy > Nature's Wrath > Excruciating Strike.
My current plan was to change nature wrath into a 'target practice'
skill using the icon from defend us all (because that is what it shows). That way it's not a sylvan skill but a generic skill for all factions. I think Nival was lazy to create a proper icon for defend us all and just used an old icon they had no longer a purpose for.
If i have no space left, your method is also fine with me.
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I don't get your argument on making Power Of Speed / Power Of Endurance available mostly for Magic classes, the skills appeal mostly to might classes, but I won't make a final stand on that part
I can tell you exactly what classes need it in my opnion so I will just do it: haven-dark class, demon lord, heretic, dungeon might+magic, death knight, necromancer. All the others (except stronghold of course) can easy get light magic.
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You obviously don't understand the importance of balancing the game. All I can say is, to me incorporating an imbalanced feature in the game where the is absolutely no need for it is just about as clever and just as annoying as conciously ignoring a fault in the programming that will make the game crash every now and then.
I obviously DO understand, I only sometimes get this tone when people don't respond with concern to the contents of my arguments. You do not really respond to my arguments with facts that counter them. Only then you can convince me. Not by just saying: 'oh you obviously do not understand'
I have explained to you already in an earlier post I would raise the prerequisities to natural luck. In my opinion the current 3.1 situation is totally imbalanced because you can get nature luck far too early. with 3x full secondary + 1x full racial. Nature luck is the imbalanced feature we are talking about. I happen to be a player who plays xl maps regularly and I had my share of natural luck abusal. I can tell you as soon as anyone gets it the game is broken, even if the rest of your skill setup build up from perks like chilling bones, soulfire etc. Therefore my argument is: it doesn't matter what other skills a ranger has in his branch, he totally owns the game anyway. And if you place elven luck behind resourcefulness, that doesn't make the combo elven luck+natural luck less powerful.
Also you are coming far too early with the problem of ultimates. We have not even yet discussed if we actually keep them in the game, nor have we discussed the prerequisities. I mean: who told you elven luck is prerequisite for natural luck? we could also choose to make the resistance branch the prerequisite and make the combo impossible.
You also haven't given response to my argument that warlock's luck is quite useless for a ranger if it isn't capable of any serious destructive magic use. Nor have you give some good info on Asheera's argument that soldier's luck is actually quite a crappy skill. Why not first investigate the amount of creature abilities the sylvan have that actually benefit from this skill and give some arguments based on facts?
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but now I've warned you at least.
I have no idea what this sentence is referring to, but I probably owe you an explaination about the way I work:
I have done some large mods in the past which I totally did on my own because I liked to do it and I was afraid if I did it on a forum-base (like TOK for example) I might got to much involved with the forum part of the job or dependant on other people to get it released. I knew already a year ago this project was possible, because I had discussed it with Kronos, but my interest in modding had somewhat 'burned out'. I somewhat realized that if I wouldn't it do it, probably nobody would ever because this forum (I mean the workshop) is for 95% a gathering place for people mainly interested in creating visual mods. The modders workshop from celestialheavens is a graveyard. Also the group of people that really have extensive knowledge of the data.pak and have energy to work through hundreds of xdb files is small and is only getting smaller. Time has proved I was right because a year later I'm back here and practically nothing has happened on the subject of dual hero classes. I don't know why I suddenly got a lot of new energy when I occasionally run in the modded exe file. I decided to try a different way of working and that's what I'm doing now. My goal is to create the primary and secondary skill system, all the heroes with specializations, the AI and the manual (of course it is not promised I ever finish it and i don't have a release date). I won't do any visuals aside from some necessary small icon changes. So I will simply give all the heroes the most appropriate model available to me (I will ask assistance on models later, but only when I'm sure the mod is 'healthy' enough to be released). For the secondary skill system I follow currently what I would call 'the community approach'. I post schemes here and people respond. I value all opinions equal, so yours (alcibiades) is not more important to me then the opinion from others, even though you have started this thread and your role is not entirely clear to me. I saw no reason to start my own thread because this thread and others already existed. If you have different plans yourself, and want to start a project entirely of your own, my activity here might only be interfering and I may need to start my own thread anyway. If this is the case, just give me call and I move on.
(this post is supposed to breathe a friendly tone)
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 25, 2009 07:14 AM |
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Quote:
You also haven't given response to my argument that warlock's luck is quite useless for a ranger if it isn't capable of any serious destructive magic use. Nor have you give some good info on Asheera's argument that soldier's luck is actually quite a crappy skill. Why not first investigate the amount of creature abilities the sylvan have that actually benefit from this skill and give some arguments based on facts?
Peace be upon this topic - but just to clarify my statement, I'm not just banging on empty cans here.
Spellpower does not really matter that much to Rangers as long as they have a decent knowledge, because they just need a fair stack of High Druids to become a destructive killer machine until the enemy focuses power on them to eliminate the bonus they provide, and even if the enemy does that, it'll buy him time for more actions with Arcane Archers, so it's a win-win situation.
And as for Soldier's Luck, it's true that some factions don't have a lot of benefits of this skill. Sylvan just happens not to be one of them. It will help Unicorn's blinding attack to trigger a lot, which in itself is more than reason enough to take it. It will also improve trigger chances for Warding/Force Arrows, which can come in handy, albeit is less decisive for battle outcome.
And Nature's Luck which does not build upon Elven Luck ... ok, it could be done, of course, just doesn't make that much sense to me.
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What will happen now?
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 25, 2009 12:19 PM |
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Quote:
And Nature's Luck which does not build upon Elven Luck ... ok, it could be done, of course, just doesn't make that much sense to me.
Exactly, just like elven luck behind resourcefulness doesn't make any sense to me. I want to make clear balance is for me exactly as important as it is to you. But... logical branches are very important to me too. Practically that means I would always prefer to remove a skill or nerf it instead of placing it somewhere it doesn't belong. The only exception for me is leadership, because it is impossible to find skills related to estates/diplomacy/recruitment. The system leaves me no other choice.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 25, 2009 12:51 PM |
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Oh by the way I also have a new idea about sylvan:
The current development plan is a little overcrowded with destructive casters: dungeon might+magic, heretic, runemage, wizards, wardens, renegades and necromancers are also able to do some. Although Destructive magic is visually the most spectacular spellschool it is tactically the most boring one. So I'm afraid the gameplay of some magic classes may become a little to straightforward. We can make the warden class focus more on summoning magic instead, in that scenario we should also make summoning the secondary spellschool from sylvan. That actually makes a lot of sense. summoning has a much stronger orientation on 'goodness' and 'nature', elementals, wasp swarm etc. you know what I'm talking about. This also balances the imbue ballista and arrow madness. The availability of imbueable spells from one town will be reduced to around 3-5 spells ((random dark and destructive)+fist of wrath+wasp swarm) + some spells wardens could start with. Summoning magic is also spellpower hungry so the high druid ability still pays off. I'm well aware nival made the decision to give sylvan destructive to make 6 unique combinations in H5 original. But since the copied light+destructive to fortress, where it obviously fits much better, this argument is no longer valuable.
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know your enemy as a global perk?
You mean from avenger? wasn't a bad idea but snipe dead and rain of arrows need the favoured enemy building, so they cannot be removed. As a generic perk from logistics it doesn't work for classes without avenger skill.
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Willow
Adventuring Hero
Tree of Knowledge
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posted March 25, 2009 01:26 PM |
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I agree, I think Light & Summoning work much better for Sylvan. Although it initially belonged to Academy, Academy tends to get all the spell schools when it has a library (which sort of makes it an opposite to Stronghold, which gets none).
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 25, 2009 01:53 PM |
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I'd go for Light and Summoning for Sylvan. Can we do that? It would be fresh, and I always connected Summoning with Nature, so it makes sense that way.
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I want to make clear balance is for me exactly as important as it is to you.
Good, and sorry if I offended you.
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What will happen now?
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 25, 2009 02:02 PM |
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I thought that imbued arrow could become a generic skill. then the might heroes will be able to get flamming arrow, while the magic heroes will get imbued ballista.
maybe the magic heroes shouldn't be able to get triple ballista.
Magic :
Ballista => Imbued ballista (requires imbued arrows)
Might :
Ballista => Triple Ballista => Flamming arrows (requires archery?)
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted March 25, 2009 02:11 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 14:16, 25 Mar 2009.
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Destructive is needed for the Imbue arrow + Rain of Arrows, are you going to change it?
Quote:
I always connected Summoning with Nature
Same here.
Sys note: The thread was sticked!
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 25, 2009 02:35 PM |
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Quote:
Destructive is needed for the Imbue arrow + Rain of Arrows, are you going to change it?
As far as I know you can imbue two types of spells: dark magic curses + damaging spells: Summoning magic contains magic fist + wasp swarm. Furthermore the mage guild will provide 3 random dark or destructive spells from level 1-3. So aside from all the extra stuff heroes can get from the adventure map and conquering other castles, 3 imbueable (great english word) spells are guaranteed, but in practice the chance to have 4 imbueable spells is almost 100% because a lot of wardens will start with one + the mage guild will provide either magic fist or wasp swarm. In my opinion all pieces of the balance puzzle are falling into place here, because the ability to imbue level 4 or 5 destructive spells + triple ballista and maybe even flaming arrows is really overkill. In Toe rangers had only 2% chance to learn war machines, but now we have two classes I think one should have a fair chance to learn war machines (8%) to create gameplay variation. At this point i´m having difficulties placing imbue ballista in the skillwheel because both flaming arrows+imbue ballista and imbue ballista+triple ballista seem overkill. flaming arrows+imbue ballista is also visual overkill. Probably the best solution is giving sylvan classes imbue ballista instead of flaming arrows. When summoning magic is second spellschool for sylvan they are not going to learn flaming arrows anyway, because it needs master of fire.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 25, 2009 02:45 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 14:47, 25 Mar 2009.
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Logistic :
Pathfinding => Snatch => Navigation or resourcefulness
War path => Spoil of wars => Death march (or familiar ground?)
Scouting => Silent stalker => teleport assault.
it makes sense and opens some possibility with luck. I was thinking about replacing the resourcefulness branch by something making your hero strike stronger randomly (like excruciating strike, powerful blow and warlock's luck)
you can imbue hives too. it costs a hell of a lot of mana, but that is really overkill. Rain of blade barriers may be very nasty too.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 25, 2009 03:02 PM |
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Quote:
Logistic :
Pathfinding => Snatch => Navigation or resourcefulness
War path => Spoil of wars => Death march (or familiar ground?)
Scouting => Silent stalker => teleport assault.
it makes sense and opens some possibility with luck. I was thinking about replacing the resourcefulness branch by something making your hero strike stronger randomly (like excruciating strike, powerful blow and warlock's luck)
Nice thinking, but the overcrowdedness of logistics with perks is one of the sources of the remaining problems. I am also still considering a full resource branch in luck with estates (renamed), because it creates an opportunity for at least one standard perk in leadership focused on the battle (artificial glory). Also we haven´t considered warlock´s luck as part of sorcery or just to let it cycle with elven luck and make it strictly available for magic classes and elven luck only for might classes.
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Willow
Adventuring Hero
Tree of Knowledge
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posted March 25, 2009 03:20 PM |
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How about making Imbue Ballista a racial perk instead? Although I have to say I'm not sure on how you plan to implement the racial skills/perks in your system. Will each class have it it's own racial skill, or share own, have it's own perks or share perks? I think it was mentioned before by Magnomagus that switching racial perks and normal skill perks caused them to not appear in the correct place in the hero bio, but I might have misread that.
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted March 25, 2009 04:39 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 16:40, 25 Mar 2009.
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If it's recial perk it will be to easy to get... (possible on level 2 even), and it's going to ruin the creeping balance between the towns (no like it's great now... but...)
In my opinion Faush gave the best idea so far:
Quote:
Magic :
Ballista => Imbued ballista (requires imbued arrows)
Might :
Ballista => Triple Ballista => Flamming arrows (requires archery?)
About logistic:
Let's remove Silent stalker for the magic class and add teleport assault. Logistic is more might skill if you ask me 
Magic:
Pathfinding --->>> Snatch --->>> Resourcefulness or Familiar ground
Scouting --->>> Swift Mind (require Eagle eye as well) --->>> Teleport assault
Navigation
Might:
Pathfinding --->>> Snatch --->>> Resourcefulness
Scouting
Silent stalker (require one of the recial perks) --->>> Warpath or Familiar Ground (lv 1 perk, the player have to choose one), also Death march (this one require Silent stalker and Pathfinding)
Navigation
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 25, 2009 05:23 PM |
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Quote:
I think it was mentioned before by Magnomagus that switching racial perks and normal skill perks caused them to not appear in the correct place in the hero bio, but I might have misread that.
You can move perks between racial skills and normal secondaries, but the amount of racial perks always needs to remain 3. I don't see chances to exchange avenger perks because they are all related to 'hitting favoured enemies' so other factions cannot use them, because they haven't got the needed town building.
Quote:
In my opinion Faush gave the best idea so far:
quote:Magic :
Ballista => Imbued ballista (requires imbued arrows)
Might :
Ballista => Triple Ballista => Flamming arrows (requires archery?)
Well, Alci and I agreed that this is better balanced:
ballista->runic machines (will become all faction perk with different name)->triple ballista
archery->flaming arrows->fiery wrath
extra prerequisities:
master of fire or corrupt destructive-> flaming arrows
archery -> runic machines.
this prevents both might and magic classes to get the full combo to easily.
Sylvan can get an unique branch after archery:
archery->nature wrath->imbue ballista
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 25, 2009 05:34 PM |
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Well there's nothing wrong with Fauch's approach as such, except my initial idea was not to separate too much between Might and Magic class perks except in availibility (chance of learning). But we can divert from that in some cases if it's favorable I guess.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 25, 2009 09:30 PM |
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Quote:
Well there's nothing wrong with Fauch's approach as such, except my initial idea was not to separate too much between Might and Magic class perks except in availibility (chance of learning). But we can divert from that in some cases if it's favorable I guess.
Yes, I'm currently still following that approach, initially my approach was creating different set ups for every skill for might and magic classes, but later I decided this only makes things unnecessary difficult, especially for modding, but also for playing the game. I wanted triple ballista in 3th row because of the complaints I read about the overpowered creeping ability from ballista heroes. I think archery is actually no longer needed as prerequisite, most important is that it takes longer before you get triple ballista. I do not feel very much for moving runic machines to the catapult branch, because then tremors needs to move, maybe to summoning, but then something else has to move and so I get a whole chain of problems to solve, while we were pretty much happy about a lot of skills in the current plan.
At this moment I start to feel better about teleport assault after scouting, because it is able to solve a lot of problems I was still facing with logistics and attack and more people (fauch ) seem to support it. I can place last stand before luck of the barbarian because it's tactically more interesting then resistance. Then power of endurance no longer has to share a slot with it. The same applies to power of speed if I create an unique branch for sylvan after archery. Defend us all can move to barbarian learning. Know your enemy can share a slot with dark revelation and lord of the undead.
All in all I think we are close to a finished beta-scheme.
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Willow
Adventuring Hero
Tree of Knowledge
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posted March 25, 2009 09:45 PM |
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Quote:
You can move perks between racial skills and normal secondaries, but the amount of racial perks always needs to remain 3. I don't see chances to exchange avenger perks because they are all related to 'hitting favoured enemies' so other factions cannot use them, because they haven't got the needed town building.
Do you mean that you won't be able to choose more than 3 or that you can only have 3 period (and not, say, 5 of which you can only pick 3)?
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 25, 2009 09:51 PM |
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Quote:
Do you mean that you won't be able to choose more than 3 or that you can only have 3 period (and not, say, 5 of which you can only pick 3)?
No I meant if there are less then 3, some spots cannot be filled, you can probably add more then 3 faction perks, I haven't tested. But I don't think it's a good idea to give only one faction more then 3 perks.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 25, 2009 11:34 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 23:40, 25 Mar 2009.
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Quote:
Nice thinking, but the overcrowdedness of logistics with perks is one of the sources of the remaining problems.
You are creating the problem yourself. we can move the perks wherever we want. after all teleport assault could fit very well in attack and light magic too. death march could fit in attack too.
Quote:
I am also still considering a full resource branch in luck with estates (renamed), because it creates an opportunity for at least one standard perk in leadership focused on the battle (artificial glory).
Estates has nothing to do with luck.
Recruitment and estates on the same branch makes perfect sense. you've got more creatures to recruit and the gold to hire them.
Quote:
Also we haven´t considered warlock´s luck as part of sorcery or just to let it cycle with elven luck and make it strictly available for magic classes and elven luck only for might classes.
warlock's luck is based on luck, but could make sense in sorcery.
on the other hand, I thought about a branch in luck with warlock's luck and erratic mana. that makes sense since erratic mana works randomly. then we can have a branch in sorcery based on keeping mana.
mysticism => arcane initiation => refined mana.
excruciating strike in luck for might heroes makes sense too since it's based on luck too.
Quote:
initially my approach was creating different set ups for every skill for might and magic classes, but later I decided this only makes things unnecessary difficult, especially for modding, but also for playing the game
what's the point if might and magic hero can learn exactly the same skills and perks?
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