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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 29, 2009 05:01 PM |
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That's a more serious problem than the Barbarian issue. 
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 29, 2009 07:24 PM |
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Quote:
yes,
and...moreover, none of heroes can get warcries or spells from barbarian town if their class is not exactly « HERO_CLASS_BARBARIAN »
so, that needs to be hex-edited....
same thing for Haven town and the training school, heroes must have exactly « HERO_CLASS_KNIGHT » to be able training.
for preserve town, if the PrimarySkill of heroes is not « HERO_SKILL_AVENGER » then the Avenger Guild from the town will not work.
Ultimate skill Rage of the Elements doesn't work if the hero has not « HERO_CLASS_WARLOCK »
You can hex-edited these terms for a new class name....but only one class will be able to make work these stuffs...
so, a might knight hero can be able training but not magic ones...
a might preserve hero can be able to have ennemy but not magic ones....
for mini-arties making...might wizard or magic wizard?
and so on....
Bang! I was afraid at some point a serious problem would show up.
you could have warned a little earlier  , for training and avenger there might be not so much of a problem because you only have to make a second support hero to make it work. For now I'm going to test all the buildings and look for solutions.
EDIT: Good News!!!
The Avenger quild works for Warden and the Arcane Forge works for Alchemists. The Following factions have no problem at all:
Academy
Sylvan
Inferno
Necropolis
Fortress
Renegades can only use training if there is a knight in the castle. Not a very urgent problem since a level 1 knight from the tavern can train just as good as a level 30 renegade. I will make expert training the class-perk for knights.
Dungeon has the most urgent problem, Witches cannot use elemental vision!. But I have already thought about a solution that can turn this bug into a feature!. We can add a fourth perk to irresistable magic and make the might class only learn elemental vision while the magic class has exclusive acces to empowered spells, this actually improves the distinction between the classes. Since both classes will miss one important gameplay feature we probably have to rebalance the faction by boosting creature growth/costs. We can also add a fourth perk for haven, exclusively for renegades.
@Simonak:
I opened H5 exe in a hex-editor but I couldn't find any line related to training or elemental chain skill, can you tell me where they are located and how you are sure they are defined in the exe file? Maybe they are in the index.bin?
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SimonaK
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted March 30, 2009 11:27 PM |
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Edited by SimonaK at 00:21, 31 Mar 2009.
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Surely not in « index.bin » because this file is known as only used by the editor.
If we search « HERO_CLASS_KNIGHT » in H5 exe then we can find an occurence to the offset A7629C.
in the area of this offset, all classes are hard-coded.
that means the H5 exe put data in memory but will use later a index (number) rather the word
to make a reference with its arrays.
if you decide to change words (as HERO_CLASS_KNIGHT to HERO_CLASS_KNIGHT_MIGHT), I think
that the informations from these offsets must be changed as well.
I said: « only heroes with such a class can use some stuffs from a particular town »
so, imagine this algo from H5 exe:
if town.faction.id = 1 then
display("the town is haven.");
end if;
we can see that the code uses a number rather "TOWN_HEAVEN" to know what is the concerned town.
morevoer, perhaps, number id from classes are same that factions.
Example:
town.faction.id = 1 -- TOWN_HEAVEN
class.id = 1 -- HERO_CLASS_KNIGHT
...
...
town.faction.id = 4 -- TOWN_DUNGEON
class.id = 4 -- HERO_CLASS_WARLOCK
...
that must be checked.
anyway, with this matter, we can imagine a algo in the H5 exe which is able to block heroes from another faction or class
to be able to use some stuffs in a town.
Example:
if hero.class != town.faction.id then -- the hero in the town comes from another faction that one of the town
if town.faction.id = 1 then -- the town is heaven
display("training school blocked"); -- only knight heroes can use training school
...
end if;
...
...
if town.faction.id = 4 then -- the town is dungeon
display("altar of elements blocked"); -- only dungeon heroes can use altar of elements
...
end if;
...
end if;
I'm talking about stuffs from town but that may be also perks or capacities....
that is not exactly the way how H5 exe works but I think H5 exe works a little bit like it. more: I think H5 exe has not just one way but several diff ways...
so, all new classes must have their own number id (1 to 16), but if there is code using a specific classe number id
then it's important to be care about managing of them.
maybe like (1 to 8 = might) (9 to 16 = magic)
moreover, there is maybe danger when we change a class number id because these concepts:
supposing originally the number 2 is for preserve...then that might become for might knight.... that is not really the same thing...but the H5 exe doesn't perfectly know that...
I don't know.....
I can have anwsers but I have a lot of question about that as well
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 31, 2009 12:30 AM |
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Quote:
Surely not in « index.bin » because this file is known as only used by the editor.
Good to know.
Quote:
if you decide to change words (as HERO_CLASS_KNIGHT to HERO_CLASS_KNIGHT_MIGHT), I think
that the informations from these offsets must be changed as well.
This is not how I work, I still use the 8 original ID-names + I have added 8 new names like HERO_CLASS_RENEGADE, HERO_CLASS_WITCH etc.
It is true classes also have numbers in types.xml these are 1-8 for the original classes and 9-16 for the new ones. Simply guessing from the things that work and the things that don't work H5 exe uses the following if/then schemes:
IF *hero is from academy* THEN *it is able to use arcane forge*
IF *hero is from sylvan* THEN *it is able to use avenger guild*
IF *hero is not from stronghold* THEN *it is able to learn spells*
This could be the only reason why these systems work for the new classes. Unfortunately with dungeon and haven we are unlucky:
IF *hero is class knight* THEN *it is able to use training grounds*
IF *hero is class warlock* THEN *it is able to use elemental vision*
So my question to you or any hex-editor would be:
is there any chance those could be changed to:
IF *hero is from haven* THEN *it is able to use training grounds*
IF *hero is from dungeon* THEN *it is able to use elemental vision*
???
EDIT: I forgot to add that it is actually more likely the algos work like this:
IF *hero has artificier skill* THEN *it is able to use arcane forge*
So haven should be better of with:
IF *hero has training skill* THEN *it is able to use training grounds*
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SimonaK
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted March 31, 2009 02:04 AM |
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Edited by SimonaK at 02:35, 31 Mar 2009.
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yes,
that is also what I meant by saying « I think H5 exe has not just one way but several diff ways... »
algo becomes sometimes different depending situation or faction or whanever...
for now, all hex-edited modifications are simple and not complex. (changing numbers to add classes, creatures, arties..etc etc)
but here, changing algo as
IF *hero is class knight* THEN *it is able to use training grounds*
to
IF *hero has training skill* THEN *it is able to use training grounds*
is really harder to make....
and my-self I don't have all required knowledges to change such a algo
I agree this is really boring that H5 exe works with different algo...perhaps it depends of
the project's development moment.
knight algo seems less better thought by nival than wizard one where it enough to it to have only the skill
rather than the class
for now, the best is like you made, making a list of limits and adjusting the mod with these limits...
EDIT:
I think that the true algo for sylvan is
IF *the primary skill of hero is skill avenger* THEN *it is able to use avenger guild*
EDIT 2:
About me, here are all algo used by H5 exe:
Knight
IF *hero is class knight* THEN *it is able to use training grounds*
Sylvan
IF *the primary skill of hero is skill avenger* THEN *it is able to use avenger guild*
Wizard
IF *hero has artificier skill* THEN *it is able to use arcane forge*
Warlock
IF *hero is class warlock* THEN *it is able to use elemental vision*
Necromancer
IF *hero has necromancy skill* THEN *it is able to use all necromancy stuffs*
Dwarf
IF *hero has runemage skill* THEN *it is able to use all runemage stuffs*
Inferno
IF *hero has gating skill* THEN *it is able to use all gating stuffs*
Stronghold
IF *hero has blood rage skill* THEN *it is able to use all blood rage stuffs*
IF *hero is class barbarian* THEN *it is able to use travel spell building and others*
like you see, it seems there is not really problem for Wizard, Necromancer, Dwarf and Inferno because their algo accepts any hero class.
for other ones....personnaly I would prefer to have the nival code source rather than hex-edited to change the algos.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 31, 2009 08:14 AM |
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I haven't looked into the hex files, but in which language is this stuff written. Would it be possible to simply change the code, so that:
IF "hero is Knight" ...
is changed to:
IF "hero has Training Skill" ...?
____________
What will happen now?
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 31, 2009 10:39 AM |
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Quote:
personnaly I would prefer to have the nival code source rather than hex-edited to change the algos.
I guess you meant to say: I would prefer to have the nival source code instead of going through the annoying process of hex editing the exe-file.
You seem to suggest hex-edited exe files have their flaws, but they haven't. Levels, classes, creatures all work stable.
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SimonaK
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted March 31, 2009 11:05 PM |
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Edited by SimonaK at 01:58, 01 Apr 2009.
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Quote:
I haven't looked into the hex files, but in which language is this stuff written. Would it be possible to simply change the code, so that:
IF "hero is Knight" ...
is changed to:
IF "hero has Training Skill" ...?
Quote:
Quote:
personnaly I would prefer to have the nival code source rather than hex-edited to change the algos.
I guess you meant to say: I would prefer to have the nival source code instead of going through the annoying process of hex editing the exe-file.
You seem to suggest hex-edited exe files have their flaws, but they haven't. Levels, classes, creatures all work stable.
Opening H5 exe to change number of classes, creatures or artifacts or even change heroes's experience level is the easier.
the harder is changing an algo.
to read assembler code to find good interrupts as JMP, MOV, CMP, PUSH, etc....make a trace in the code and breakpoints, etc
It's really not a easy work. especially with weak knowledges about assembler coding and few time.
When the algo is running? when the player is clicking on the training ground button?
or when the hero is entering in the castle, a lot of variables are initialized with good value flags?
I want to help and I'll help if I can
but I'm not the man about changing an algo in the H5 exe
the best hex-editor and exe hacker on the market:
http://www.immunityinc.com/products-immdbg.shtml
You can run H5 exe step by step from this debugger.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted April 01, 2009 01:48 PM |
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Considering the fact that we may never find a solution for this problem I will for now focus on creating a mod that makes as much might and magic classes as possible starting with the ones that are implemented without much trouble. Another main goal of the mod will be to improve the balance of core systems in the game like the skillsystem, AI, starting heroes etc. We should not forget that the skillsystem we designed should already be a great improvement even without any new classes!.
I have currently finished creating a Necropolis demo, that will allow everybody to play with the new Death Knight and Necromancer. I chose necropolis first because the necromancy skill is highly independent and therefore allows for a strong might/magic split-up. Here are the download links for the demo:
Necropolis Demo (h5u file)
and the required exe file:
H5 Classes exe
The death knight and necromancer are supposed to follow the development paths explained in these screenshots (If they don't do it exactly inform me, because then it's a bug):
The skillsystem is not necessarily final, it just contains some changes based on the latest discussions. There are 7 necromancers and 7 Death Knights available. If I remember correctly these heroes are death knights:
-vladimir, nemor, kaspar, orson, giovanni, ornella, banshee-hero (don't remember her name)
You can also play with heroes from other factions, but they are not prepared (only original classes and annoying nival skillchoices), they will also follow the new secondary skill system. Play the demo and give me your opinion. Don't forget the necromancer is also interesting, it has less defense and more magic skills. Focus your comments on necropolis for now, because I'm not going to bother with arguments considering unfinished parts.
@Alcibiades & Vokial:
It would be great if the screenshots and links can be moved to the first post, also if the thread title has added: (Demo released!)
Some possible issues:
-I recommend not to use the mod with any other mods, especially not mods like campaign hero unlockers or defaultstats, also it doesn't work with NCF
-The icons and names are not changed yet.
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X3Btel
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 02, 2009 03:46 AM |
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The new Demo is nice 
Right now have only one thing: One of the knight heroes have Poison Special and dark Magic. I think he should be Magic class
Ohh, and another thing: Although Fallen knight is pretty powerful are u sure it have to be in the curses branch? It is far more useful in the Pain branch. I think it have to be changed,
Pain should get- Suffering strike and Knight
Curses: Shrug and Seal darkness
I`m not sure if it will be unbalanced that way, but it will be much more logical
Also about the war machines, i have suggestion to add MOD about number of healing of the tent, I`m using tent with 10 healings, and now it is really worth investing in plague tent
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted April 02, 2009 10:12 AM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 10:14, 02 Apr 2009.
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About Orson:
You all know that zombies are not very usefull (only meat shield at end ame), isn't it better if Orson become skely|ghost|wright|lich specialist?
Also the banshee-hero (Deardre?) is more necromantic with this special.
EDIT: First post updated!
____________
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted April 02, 2009 03:12 PM |
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X3Btel, welcome to HC and Vokial thanks for post moving.
Let me first outline the general problems related to dividing the available specializations over heroes:
-The total amount of specializations available in the game is around 64 + a few campaign hero specs that can be nerfed. It is impossible to create new ones (so that already answers the Orson question). The amount of heroes in the final edition of this mod should be around 110-120. So a lot of generally useful specs are used twice (examples: poison master, windspeaker, flame wielder, mystic, pathfinding etc). Also some favourite creature specs are going to be used twice (vampires)
Of course this doesn't make the result in anyway inferior to HOMM3 because there was a lot of copying there too. But HOMM5 has more problems.
-Some factions have much more magic specs available (academy) and some much more might specs (sylvan). Therefore I hold the rule that it would be OK to have one hero for every class that has a specialty contrary to its nature. I actually liked the gameplay consequences because now everyclass has a hero available with a small twist. For the death knights this is currently vladimir, for the necromancers Markal. I could of course swap them if you like (I mean the specs, not the heroes). But I thought lore-wise it was unappropriate to take the 'diplomacy thing' away from markal. Markal should be able get herald of death after 2 level ups, that combined with golden tongue ability should compensate for the loss of a secondary skill slot. The result is a heavily nerfed edition of the death lord ability.
-There are not many females in the game, and I try to divide them somewhat evenly over the classes. Therefore I needed Ornella and Deirde in the death knight section. I think the banshee ability is much better for a death knight because a necromancer wouldn't use it much. It's heavy magic orientation would make many superior spells available very soon. Secondly there will also be a 'living' knight with the opposite spec: paragon knight.
I would also like to add that summoning magic is in my opinion a better option for a necromancer as starting skill because that leaves him the choice to go for summoning+destructive instead of summoning+dark. On a map were destructive spells are available a necromancer would make an excellent destructive caster. A death knight will certainly always go for dark, because it lacks spellpower for summoning and destructive. A death knight is the opposite of the living knight and a regular build up would be something like: attack+Defense+dark magic+luck+logistics or war machines.
Quote:
Although Fallen knight is pretty powerful are u sure it have to be in the curses branch? It is far more useful in the Pain branch.
Well that's exactly the reason it is in the curse branch: balance. Furthermore this skill isn't available to the necropolis at all because it doesn't suffer from the morale penalty.
Quote:
Also about the war machines, i have suggestion to add MOD about number of healing of the tent, I`m using tent with 10 healings, and now it is really worth investing in plague tent
Yes, I recreated that mod and I really like it, but I also remember there was a lot of balance related discussion about it after the release. I'm planning to include improvements to core systems in the game like starting conditions and prices. But I'm not sure about this one, I will at least make an optional extension for it. Or maybe include it with a nerf to 6 or 8 charges.
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X3Btel
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 04, 2009 12:49 AM |
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Sorry, for joining this late the project, you did some great job so far
I almost read whole thread, i saw a lot of suggestions for the skill system, but did`nt read them very carefully, that`s why I`ll comment the last pictures you post:
Gating skill is "nurfed" too much. In the original game,
Gate master and Swarming Gate, are second line skill, and Swift gating is even first. Here they all are 3-rd line
I really like Runic machines, avaivable for all. But triple balista in the third line.. My perfect warmachines build were: balista+triple+tent, now this is immposible and I`m not sure which build gonna be better- balista+runic+tent or balista+runic+triple.
Well because I dont use Catapult at all, may be for my games I`ll remove this skill and make war machines avaivable.. (Yes I`m cheater  )
Attack: Second line looks useless for 90%of the heroes. Battle frenzy is ok, but stuning blow is useless with Knight and Demon`s special attacks. And everyone else will prefer casting spells
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted April 04, 2009 09:06 AM |
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Quote:
I really like Runic machines, avaivable for all. But triple balista in the third line.. My perfect warmachines build were: balista+triple+tent, now this is immposible and I`m not sure which build gonna be better- balista+runic+tent or balista+runic+triple.
Well because I dont use Catapult at all, may be for my games I`ll remove this skill and make war machines avaivable.. (Yes I`m cheater )
Well I think it's intentional that Tripple Ballista + First Aid Tent is not a possible combo, because it makes for super-creeping that tends towards the imbalanced.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted April 04, 2009 11:54 AM |
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Quote:
Gate master and Swarming Gate, are second line skill, and Swift gating is even first. Here they all are 3-rd line
You have a good point, although swift gating is more then a first line skill because it required consume corpse. The creeping power of heretics should be very good with heavy destructive magic orientation, but the demon lords could use some more gating power. Now the demon lords can easily get leadership I can move gatemaster to second line. I'm actually thinking about moving all faction specials before empathy.
Quote:
I`m not sure which build gonna be better- balista+runic+tent or balista+runic+triple.
That's a great compliment, in a balanced skillsystem people no longer know what to choose and when I have boosted the tremors skill it will become even tougher. Triple ballista is often discussed in TOH forums as too easy to get, there were even mods created for it.
Quote:
Battle frenzy is ok, but stuning blow is useless with Knight and Demon`s special attacks. And everyone else will prefer casting spells
I have no idea how you come to this conclusion. The melee branch is very effective for all might heroes, the stun ability can be used to delay dangerous shooter stacks (it always triggers)and combined with excruciating strike melee heroes are very effective tier 7 killers in late game, because they ignore the excessive defense skill they often have. In long battles might heroes run quickly out of mana.
I can also create knights and rangers with pounder specialization (The names will be changed to something more suitable)
@Alcibiades: Is that all?
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted April 04, 2009 12:38 PM |
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Since you haven't exactly been drowning in publicity, I decided to display the mod at HC's news page. Hopefully now there'll be some more interest in your great work. Keep it up.
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X3Btel
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 04, 2009 12:51 PM |
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What meant with stuning blow being useless is that with Barbarian special ability is very usefull, because each time one unit attack the hero also attack, but with mark of the damned and retaliation strike the hero will strike when the ATB is already zero, so no bonus from it.
That`s why i think it is not much usefull for anyone who is not Barbarian
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted April 04, 2009 02:11 PM |
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Quote:
Since you haven't exactly been drowning in publicity, I decided to display the mod at HC's news page. Hopefully now there'll be some more interest in your great work. Keep it up.
Yeah that could help, although it is merely a demo then a beta. Also: I didn't convert the necromancers into death knights, much better: I created 7 death knights + 7 necromancers.
On another subject, are you still interested in doing some small skin adjustments? I currently chose the sareth and ornella models for the death knights, because the were the best I could get. Maybe you can adjust there face skins so they look really 'death', also sareths horse would look more scary if it had grey manes instead of white. All Sareths materials are included in the demo. I realize I need to do some cleaning in the archive later, because the mod is built on my pre-3.1 hero unlocker.
@BK3tel:
You are right about the stunning not helping with these specials, but these are just extra abilities. The normal attack from knight and demonlord are still potentially equal to the barbarians. I can boost the excruciating strike skill by increasing the % chance to make the branch more interesting, but I foresee balance issues with the pounder ability.
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X3Btel
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 04, 2009 03:52 PM |
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@magnomagus
well, if there are enough pounder specialization. That way this branch will be usefull for pounders and barbarians. I think increasing the % for excrucating is not needed, the problem IMO was stuning blow not usefull, but with pounder specialty is Ok
And I`m eager tosee the rest of the mod
PS: Can we change specialiaztion? For example to make specialization in skeletons from specialization in zombies?
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SimonaK
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 04, 2009 04:38 PM |
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I'm unable to devellop archery perk and to get Nature's Wrath (just Flaming Arrows with Master of Fire)
in Skills.xdb, Nature's Wrath is a logistic perk..and only reachable by preserve classes..
does your screen shot shows too others faction path?
it shows gating perks but I'm seeing that necromancer or death knight cannot get gating perks...
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This thread is pages long: 
