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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: The Liberal Club
Thread: The Liberal Club [ This thread is 6 pages long: (1) 2 3 4 5 6 ]
mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted April 06, 2009 08:04 PM
Edited by mvassilev at 20:18, 06 Apr 2009.

The Liberal Club

I cannot help but feel that liberals (in the European sense) are outnumbered in the OSM. Though I immensely enjoy arguing with socialists, I would like an area where we could discuss particular areas of policy without undue interference their undue influence, and may focus on issues more detailed than whether property is theft and capitalism vs. socialism. For the purposes of this thread, capitalism is the best system, private property is good, and voluntary exchange is the engine of growth. Also, various intolerant limits, such as those against same-sex marriage, are undesirable. There are still many questions within that.

Of course, people (non-members) wishing to learn about these things may post, but must do so without firm conclusions that they will completely disagree with the answer.

Liberal Club members
mvassilev
Corribus
Lexxan
DagothGares
blizzardboy
Friendofgunnar
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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


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Dudeman. Half dude. Half man.
posted April 06, 2009 08:07 PM
Edited by blizzardboy at 20:10, 06 Apr 2009.

Market Liberal, Social Liberal here. (I'll probably forgot about this thread and never show up again, but at least I can be on the list so people can recognize my glory)

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FriendOfGunnar
FriendOfGunnar


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and space cadet
posted April 06, 2009 08:09 PM

lol, this would be a great place to talk about bankruptcy laws

seriously though, how many of your fellow economists see the value in abolishing bankruptcy laws?

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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted April 06, 2009 08:18 PM

I think the Austrians do. I'm not sure what neoclassical economists think. I'm for abolishing them, though.
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TheDeath
TheDeath


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with serious business
posted April 06, 2009 08:53 PM

I don't see the point of this thread. You want to hear "I agree" from everyone or what?
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mvassilev
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posted April 06, 2009 08:55 PM

No, I want to discuss things in greater detail - something other than socialism vs. capitalism. Just as there is disagreement among socialists (just look at yourself, DeadMan, JJ, and so on), so there is among capitalists.
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TheDeath
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posted April 06, 2009 09:07 PM

mvass, that's because there are "different" topics of socialism: civil or economic. And also, Deadman was more like a communist (not the crap we had though) and "Liberal" in Europe can also apply to socialists, if it refers to civil rights
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mvassilev
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posted April 06, 2009 09:12 PM

I mean "liberal" both socially and economically. Plus, DeadMan was certainly an economic socialist and somewhat of a social conservative - just like you!
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Corribus
Corribus

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The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted April 06, 2009 09:32 PM

Whoa, whoa, whoa - I'm no liberal.

Besides, we're not outnumbered.  I easily count for at least 50 of them, intellectually speaking.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted April 06, 2009 09:38 PM

Quote:
I'm no liberal.
I'm using the word "liberal" in the European sense, not in the modern American - although they used to have the same meaning until the social democrats hijacked it in America. I hope the real liberals (who are something more like libertarians) can reclaim it someday.
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Asheera
Asheera


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posted April 06, 2009 09:46 PM

I don't know where I belong, to be honest. Maybe I'm not that good at economics but I can't decide so I just say I'm a centrist.

I support the free market and trade, but I also support socialist services like Public Transport, Schools, etc. I'm not in favor of one big 'power' deciding everything for everyone, which would happen with the richest one in a complete capitalistic country (or in a country where the government has too much power)

And yes I am totally against intolerance (such as same-sex marriage)
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blizzardboy
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posted April 06, 2009 09:47 PM
Edited by blizzardboy at 21:49, 06 Apr 2009.

Libertarians by American standards are very outnumbered in America. They are a minority in the Republican party, and non-existent in the Democrat Party. Their only other presence is in the Libertarian and Constitution Parties. 3rd parties are rather insignificant though and the U.S. is basically ruled by a two-party system, which is slowly becoming more and more like a one-party system in light of the Republican parties self-corruption since 9/11.

When you hear the word "Liberal" in vernacular American political discourse, it means "Economically authoritarian and Socially Liberal." They're the people that want centralized government to play a more extensive role in controlling the market and in providing public services. They're also the people that support a great deal of civil liberties and want the government to have less control in private life.

That's why N. Americans and Europeans are constantly confused when they discuss these terms.

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The_Gootch
The_Gootch


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Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted April 06, 2009 09:50 PM

And yet somehow the word has been twisted to mean someone who is well-meaning but hopelessly naive.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted April 06, 2009 09:58 PM

Ash:
Well, try discussing with us (you don't have to worry about TheDeath) and maybe you'll find out.

blizzardboy:
I wouldn't call the Constitution Party libertarian by any stretch of the imagination.

But European liberals aren't quite what libertarians are, plus even American liberals aren't economically authoritarian - compare them to actual socialists, for example.

The_Gootch:
Well... yeah. Blame the right-wingers for that.
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blizzardboy
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posted April 06, 2009 10:03 PM

Quote:

blizzardboy:
I wouldn't call the Constitution Party libertarian by any stretch of the imagination.


Some of them are. I'd wager there's more libertarian-leaning Constitution members than libertarian-leaning Republican members.

Quote:
But European liberals aren't quite what libertarians are, plus even American liberals aren't economically authoritarian - compare them to actual socialists, for example.


They're the economic authoritarians by American standards. We don't have any genuine socialists other than a tiny helpless party of them.

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted April 06, 2009 10:12 PM

@mvass

Well I was more tongue-in-cheek-ly referring to the fact that I don't like to label myself, but in any case, carry on.

I will step in and insert wisdom when needed.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted April 06, 2009 10:20 PM

Blizzardboy:
The Constitution Party is a joke party that hardly deserves any thought. Their chief activities seem to be advocating protectionism, supporting theocracy, and spreading conspiracy theories.

Plus, we're on HC, not in America.

Corribus:
k, thanks.
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blizzardboy
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posted April 06, 2009 10:28 PM
Edited by blizzardboy at 22:30, 06 Apr 2009.

I could say that the Republican party is a joke that hardly deserves any thought that is all about massive spending, increasing centralized government, and borrowing obscene amounts of money that it has no clue how to pay back, but that's a generalization. (No, I'm not in the Constitution Party, but I honestly think most of them are better these days then the either of the major parties).

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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted April 06, 2009 10:33 PM

I certainly don't. They're a bunch of theocrats and nationalists. As for the Republicans - they're not great, but at least they have some decent people (although not all of them are in power; I'm talking about people like David Brooks, George Will, etc). They have idiots like Limbaugh and savages like Inhofe, but that's why it's a major party - it's a big tent.

And unfortunately we have to think about the Republican Party. They're too big to ignore.
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted April 06, 2009 11:28 PM

I used to be ok with the republican party.  They used to at least believe in fiscal conservatism.  The big government social aspect I could tolerate because the SC would keep them from doing anything too obnoxious.  But now they stand for big government in spending AND on social issues, pretty much exactly the opposite of a Libertarian agenda.

Argh, what's a Libertarian to do these days?  :sigh:  
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