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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: "The 300 Spartans" WoG scenario
Thread: "The 300 Spartans" WoG scenario This thread is 9 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT»
Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 07, 2009 11:11 AM

When the game starts, you receive a message and the view is centered on the Thermopylae pass. I can't give hundred of hints on which is obvious. The AI waves must never reach the monolith one way, thus you have to put Leonidas one square in front of it. I will try to add more hints for next version, but then the map will be annoying for those who dare to click and find by themselves.

I will add a daily message which will warn the player if leonidas is not on the right square.

Thanks.
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Hermetic
Hermetic

Tavern Dweller
posted June 07, 2009 12:54 PM

So don't do it, because it'd be annoying in first 2 months. That I'm dumb don't means the others are The only thing that's deceiving is that the spot in the front of the athens is scripted too

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 07, 2009 01:04 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 13:06, 07 Jun 2009.

The spot in front of Athens is not scripted. It is just cursed ground. The only square of terrain I scripted in whole map is the Thermopylae pass. I will make some slight modifications to the layout to avoid any confusion. The daily message will start 2 days before the invasion, of course.
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Hermetic
Hermetic

Tavern Dweller
posted June 07, 2009 01:39 PM

hmm ? But standing there, the battlefield was altered, and messages worked correctly. If I were standing next to it, none of these occured. Bug or something

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 07, 2009 01:52 PM

No. The battles are scripted to occur if the attacker is X and leonidas is the defender, no matter on which square. So virtually you could stand anywhere, the battles will be same. Now, the advantage of the Thermopylae pass is:

1) No cursed ground
2) Bonus daily (health + movement) if hold on.

On last version the loss of Athens will be loss condition, so it will be obvious to anyone that Leonidas has to place himself before the monolith entrance.

When I told about a scripted square I was referring to the custom name it has when you right click on it.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 14, 2009 02:02 PM

Latest update (and the last I hope):13.06.09.

At his demands, James Vogan removed from mapmaker list.
Files updated: map and "read me" txt.
Spelling, idioms, dialogs flavor, hints added. Same link.
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Ayreon
Ayreon


Famous Hero
posted June 14, 2009 04:24 PM

Why did he demand not to receive credit for what he co-mapped? At least, I understood that you started the project together, but he declined halfway...
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 14, 2009 04:58 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 17:00, 14 Jun 2009.

Only Jim can answer to this. I wanted him on the list, he asked to be removed. I am not going to force him to take credit.
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Aleee
Aleee


Known Hero
posted June 17, 2009 12:21 PM

Unfortunately I'm having exams right now so the russian translation is going to be released only in next month.
I have a question: "Bystanders told that they saw naļads carrying him by force." naļads=naiads?

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 17, 2009 12:32 PM

Yes, it is same.
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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted June 18, 2009 08:36 PM

I started the map today, and I am not sure this is my kind of map to be honest....

I like to play heroes...not reload 40 times in 20 minutes. This seems very frustrating, especially if you have to do fights like the champion/quicksand/landmine fight always from the very beginning if you make 1 wrong click...

It took me around 20 reloads to get the gold dragon/dendroid fight done. This was already pretty frustrating. But to be honest, half of the reloads were my own fault, coz I didn't realize I have cure spell. I understood the message before the fight as if I get those 3 spells AFTER I have won the fight as reward, and not before it, so I didn't check my spellbook during the fight...


And the second thing is my other hero. I always have the feeling I do not really know where to go with here. You can't locate roads or passages quite well, I go one way....dead end...reload...other way...dead end...reload...

Even though I like the idea of those quests and trainers very much, I have the feeling my frustration will reach a point (sooner or later) where I lose the fun in playing...and that will be the end of that map for me.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 18, 2009 08:53 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 21:58, 18 Jun 2009.

I know. The trainers quests were updated in the last version, so you can pay and have a easier version. (he will have 1000 HP so he must walk only on 5 mines, same for the lich, she can be killed by any unit for same 24k gold coins). Just pay for it.

The trainers are the most difficult thing in the game. Once they are done, it just runs smoothly. They are difficult. But you are enough skilled and experienced to accept that you have the tools to overcome each of them. The bad thing is that they do not allow any mistake.

When J Vogan sent me his battle chess I was also disappointed and disoriented. First time I lost badly and did not understand anything. I had to try it several times to get the idea and master it once for ever. Now I enjoy it because I can win it every time.

But the Gorgo task will always be same: complete quests, walk, complete puzzles. If you are annoyed by those mechanics then it is your right. From the beginning the HoMM player will be disoriented because there are a lot of new things. There is no way to change a vision without sacrificing comfort, at least at start. Personally I still like SoD mechanics but I feel like everything was already done, and don't see the interest of making clones of good maps.

Once Leonidas is done training the invasions will start and half of the playability will be focused on pure fights. I still think that this scenario must be judged on its whole conception and not on early things which can destabilize anyone.

When I played Oblivion I spent about 3 weeks real time just exploring and testing locations and leveling. Once I understood the mechanics I restarted and played it much more precise, achieving better results. Months later I really got the idea of what would work for playing it in an optimal way. I don't say this map is as good as Oblivion (far from it), just that I spent months to test optimal moves and solutions, and I don't expect one to find them in a couple of clicks. Now, if the interest is lost, I can do nothing...

Suggestion: remove ZVSE from the "setup invasions" script,
so AI will never attack. Then just walk with Gorgo around until you see the passability. Once the 5 statues of Hermes were visited, you can teleport in five different locations of your choice, and this simplify greatly the whole thing. There are only very few dead ends and you will memorize them very fast.

Here is the passability:


If you give up, then Angelitolochos will not get a roof on his head. Can you be so cruel?
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 19, 2009 12:50 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 01:20, 19 Jun 2009.

300 update:

UPDATE

Changes: underground reveals on the first day, so any "dead ways" problems should be avoided from now. I should do it from the first version, according to the complexity it is necessary. Anyway, the queen of Sparta is supposed to know her city, isn't it?

Will be updated on map4heroes as soon as Evgeny gets it.

@Angelito
You played TEWIII and TOP 9 months after their release. They were updated at least 15 times and hundred of people contributed to this. "300" was never tested by anyone but me. Please give it a try if you have the time and the interest, I will pay attention to your comments. If no one wants to play it, the map can't improve as my only point of view is altered by my perfect knowledge of the layout and mechanics.
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Koni
Koni


Hired Hero
posted June 19, 2009 10:23 AM

Angelito: I have followed to what Valery recommends, but removed all the timed events on day 171 about the invasions, and then only explored with Gorgo. You can "experience" and enjoy almost all the quests (some show "error messages" as walking and fighting in the labyrinth), but better to give Gorgo more speed asap, such as logistics and equestrian gloves, if joining the Order of life and reaching rank 4 after buying 96,000 exp, buying double speed in week 4 at royal academy etc. (all that I did thanks to Salamandre's kindly hints; he will give them to you as well if you want, more exactly and detailed as I can ) .

Have a nice journey with Gorgo (I'll travel to Croatia tomorrow morning   for the next 3 weeks).              
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 19, 2009 12:48 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 13:04, 19 Jun 2009.

No need to remove events, now map of the Sparta city is revealing turn one. There are no hidden obstacles except two garrisons(not hidden, but blocking the entrances) so now we can move everywhere.
@Koni: The labyrinth quest is linked to the invasions, thats why you having errors. If the invasion are disabled, the labyrinth will not work.
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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted June 20, 2009 09:29 AM

Is there any chance to refill your mana on that map?

I couldn't win the champions/landmine/quicksand fight because I ran out of mana after I reduced the champion's hitpoints by half already (went into that fight with around 150 sp), and now my lady dies because I don't have enough spellpoints when an Ambush is coming up. The vampires can only be killed with arrows, coz my only creatures is quite weak...

I skipped the champion fight and went on with main. I would strongly recommend to leave out that trainer. All others are fine and can be won after a short time. Even if you make a fault and have to repeat it, it is not that big of a problem. But the champion is quite annoying. Maybe you come up with a different idea for the 8th trainer.

And the amount of quests seem to be overwhelming the player. You concentrate to find the location of 1 quest, and during your way, 2 more quests come up. It just seems to be too much to handle. You lose the track of all that stuff pretty fast.

I am still not sure what to do with my main after trainer fights and getting the rewards. He runs around wherever he has access to. Visiting +1 knowledge locations, flagging goldmines and so on. But is it supposed to be like that? Or is he wasting his time and should prepare himself for upcoming fights?

Money management. Quite difficult to value what to do with your money. Leveling up the lady at least to level 4 seems obvious. But then what? Buying spells for the main? Which would be important? resurrection already...or better slow...you do not have any magic skills yet...and you do not know which one(s) you will get offered.
So maybe you buy slow, but upcoming fights are against dragons, and resurrection would have been much better. So you have to reload a save and play everything again.

And this is exactly what makes people lose interest (in my eyes). Not knowing which decision is the correct one at a certain point, and if it was the wrong one, load back 20 days (example).

As a mapmaker, you of course know what will happen every day, but the player doesn't. I am not sure many players just start playing the whole map with all wrong decisions to a certain point (where they just can't proceed due to wrong decisions) and then start again new when they have more knowledge.


And btw...I bought Oblivion too 1.5 years ago coz someone told me it could be a great game for me. He was damn wrong
I like those kind of games, but I like them when they are built in a more linear way (like Diablo 2 for example). A game where you can run around in all directions without knowing if you waste tons of hours due to wrong locations makes me angry pretty much. After 3 days, Oblivion wasn't found on my comp anymore
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 20, 2009 05:44 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 18:06, 20 Jun 2009.

Well, it depends mostly of the level of interest you have for the game "upgrades". If any attempts to re-born the HoMM are misunderstood and skipped because of their difficulties then we should not worry about why, with a such amazing tool as WoG, there were no finished projects in the last 4 years. Not even one.

Maybe it should be more fair for you just to accept that a WoG map is much more difficult than a SoD and the same pattern (I move on the road and the only difficulty I have to overcome is winning hard battles) is multiplied/diversified here. Personally I look into each new wog map with interest of what it opens as new options, and how they could be applied to make the game more enjoyable.

Because what you describe there are more problems due to your negative/circumspect approach than due to the map design:

1) There is a well under your nose, at 1 square from the champion quest.

2) For Gorgo there are 2 wells, one in Gerousia, one near the miners and a magic spring near the death order. Using the teleport system and still running out of mana when having 3 different locations to refill the mana is no more a real issue.  

3) Why should I leave out the champion, while the tool to defeat him are obvious? Do you play the last version? You can pay 24k gold and poison the champion, so he will have only 1000 HP (need to walk into 5 mines only). But the high scores will be available to those who had the patience to overcome all the difficulties. Just pay him and enjoy the next. One day you will find him rather easy, don't complicate everything on first try. I read in other threads people who said they can't clone your strategy of winning against hydras with so few units, even when you give them screens. Would you remove the hydras or keep explaining what it will make them better players?

4) The quests are coming in a high number because I want the player to choose, not do them all.Some will be easy, other difficult. On first month you will feel like overwhelmed by their number, but once Gorgo won Horse race (+2000 move/day) and she got expert Logistic and movement artefacts from the orders, combined with 5 teleport locations, she will be able to complete 2-4 quests a week. Your papyrus will keep track of EACH action Gorgo did, so you don't have to memorize anything. Just compare the locations of the quests with the map with numbers and try to complete adjacent quests in one run.

5) An attentive reading of the events is unfortunatelly necessary when playing WoG maps, due to the amount of changes.
You are told on first day that, once Leonidas finished training, he has to visit the powerups and then position on the Thermopylae pass and not move anymore, just hold the pass. This info is also detailed in the read me txt. Holding the pass gives him daily bonuses.

6) Money: it is required for recruiting spartans and sending them on the battlefield. You can also use it for upgrading Gorgo in the orders, in the royal academy, poison trainers, buy spells. You have 24k gold each week from the citizens, 3500 gold from Athens, and more from bonuses as gold mines/estates.

7) Gorgo can become very strong, if used well. Just look at Orders bonuses (clicking right on help section) and raise in the ranks very fast. Once she has intelligence, lighting bolt and summon air elementals, the ambushes are a joke. And if in dead order, the quests from it will make her becoming the best beast in the game (1500 HP, attack xxx, speed 30 etc). You have a large choice.

I agree that it is quite complex because new. But the map is rather easy, as everything is explained at one point or another. Maybe you should not play it quickly after TEWIII which was a consuming map. Just take your time and play it later, when you feel bored and want to spend some time.

You can also disable the "setup invasion" script and just play with Gorgo for a few months, and you will see that completing all the quests is not difficult, you have 6 months.
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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted June 20, 2009 10:02 PM
Edited by angelito at 22:02, 20 Jun 2009.

Please don't take my postings as personal attack Salamandre

I have great respect for the work you do refering to Wog / ERM and all that. There is no question about it!

I just give you my points of view, which for sure don't represent the majority.



But this map (300) is just too different from original heroes. It shows pretty well why I disliked WoG on first try several years ago. Too much adventure style, and this is just not my kind of games.

And it is not about difficulty. I like it the hard way, I play H3 too long to feel good when playing kindergarten maps.

But this is just too "messy"...too many things. And way too many reloads. This is not my prefered style to play a turn based tactic game.

And as mentioned in an earlier post, I am not the reading guy. I mostly click away all the upcoming text on the first days, coz I want to play, not read a book
That's why I often stop playing certain maps, coz the messages are just too many. But again...that's just me.

One more note about the map, refering to objects:
I play H3 for 10 years now, and I know pretty well how a magic well (refill mana points) looks alike. For the matter of fact this map is full of visible objects I have never seen, don't expect me to right-click on every little piece and see what it is and what it is good for. I do not play WoG long enough to be able to recognize every variation of those things.

And there are only very few custom maps I played more than twice (To kill for Power, Empire of the World, The Lord of War...), because then they start to bore me...that's why I like playing randoms and not fixed.

So I guess I will try to play your Alexander map next, not sure when I will start, but will keep you informed.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 20, 2009 10:36 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 01:58, 21 Jun 2009.

I never took it as a personal attack. I am just aware that, if Heroes has any future, this will be the way. More story, custom events, different issues according to the player actions. So I am defending the idea. If and when 3.59 comes out, this will be the kind of scenarios that will be created. As I said WoG is a tool, and using it without script will greatly unbalance the game.

It is just matter of a few years. One day you will be really bored of defeating crypts/tops. And, from what I have seen there will not be any HoMM VI/VII which will please you or me. This scenario offers SO many new things which can change completely the upcoming visions about mapmaking. Is it exaggerated for a first attempt? Maybe. Can we still create anything new using the old mechanics? I doubt so. So far the last four years SoD maps created are crap or cloned on already existing ones.

Many of the WoG ones are also crap: either the mapmaker is a godly scripter but a mediocre player, either he is good player but no clue about WoG, either he sucks at both. Except Fnord maps (some) and Vlaad ones, all others are clearly showing the flaws WoG has. A mixture between skill, script and vision  is necessary when attacking this.

new objects: if I can't succeed completing a battle because not enough mana, the first thing is search for a well, because I imagine the mapmaker had the same problem. If I see an object which looks as a well at 1 square of my position, I will click on it (1 sec) instead of reloading 10 times the battle. But that is just me...come on...

Quote:
It shows pretty well why I disliked WoG on first try several years ago. Too much adventure style, and this is just not my kind of games.



Well, no. I already warned that this map will not be anyone taste, and I was expecting this. But you already experienced in TEWIII and I hope, in Alexander, that the mechanics can be left unchanged, and just add softer changes to improve difficulty/layout. WoG can be what you want to be. Give a go to Alexander, there are interesting fights there and you will like them. That map uses the level 10 creature to its full capability, not some gay colored only. The top creatures will be nightmare to defeat. And, the most important, you can skip the dialogs

Post scriptum: the chinese started a huge translation of "300". This will be an immense task, but will hopefully give it a second life.

300 samurais
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wog_edn
wog_edn

Promising

The Nothingness
posted June 21, 2009 02:26 AM

Haven't tried it yet, but I love mix of scripting and story and battles ... so I will probably start up tomorrow
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