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JollyJoker
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 14, 2009 07:43 AM |
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Who invents such absolutely nonsensical questions? I mean, what kind of situation will make it necessary to save my life, killing one or more persons in the process and not acting in self-defense?
Ok, so I'm part of a drug-pushing gang, currently in deep drek with either the cops or a rivalling outfit. My friends come and free me, shooting 3 of the other guys. Will I turn them in? I don't think so.
Next try. My liver is finished from too much drinking and shooting bad dope, so I need a new one. The regular list says I have to wait a year, so my friends go and organize a donator for me. Probably not, since my friends and me, we eat little children for breakfast as well.
It amounts to this: If my friends kill people, not in self-defense, to save my life, then chances are I'd do the same for them, which means I must be either a criminal or a corrupt cop or politician, otherwise I had different friends. Another distant possibility would be the following:
Now, if my friends break a minor law to save my life - I had an accident and they steal a car to take me to hospital - they will admit to it themselves afterwards and nothing won't happen to them, since life-saving justifies a minor break of the law.
If they run 3 people over in the course of trying to save me, they will have to stand up for it later; it's well and good that they are trying to save my life, but killing a couple of people in the process isn't in order. However, since I'm probably out, I won't realize anything of it and won't be able to turn them in, but the cops will surely find them.
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 14, 2009 07:53 AM |
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As JJ said, the scenario is rather unlikely. But if it should somehow happen, I'm not turning them in under any circumstances. They saved my life, and this is how I repay them? No way.
(Death, my Lawful alignment has just taken a big hit. What am I now?  )
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Eccentric Opinion
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 14, 2009 07:54 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 08:08, 14 Jul 2009.
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Jolly you are not forced to participate in this if you do not want. They are 'morality' questions. As I said before, try to take the questions on face value. YOU are YOU, not some drug pusher or whatever (unless you are actually that *shrug*). As for having to kill somebody but not in self defense the reason why is not really important. It can also be some other major thing, not just killing somebody.
It also doesn't matter HOW there were no witnesses or evidence. The question is, would YOU turn in your friend who just saved your life?
Sometimes it's like we can't have a philosophical debate *sighs*.
Edit : Yes Mvass the scenarios have less chance of happening then finding a snowball in the Sahara.
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JollyJoker
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 14, 2009 08:46 AM |
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You see, that's what I hate about this. Ask angelito about the earlier practise in Germany, to ask draft resisters morality questions of that kind: you are out in the woods with your girlfriend, suddenly you get assaulted and your girlfriend is threatened to be raped. As it happens, when they are about to start, a weapon is in reach and you may act to protect your girlfriend. What will you do?
Now, as it happens my best friend actually WAS in such a situation. He was on a camping holiday in France, and one night they got assaulted by some gang. They robbed them and put him a knife to the throat whily raping his girldfriend. As you can imagine, after that he was rather shaken - he didn't know his then girlfriend for such a long time and they broke up immediately, since for her it was important to get a life again, and one that wouldn't remind her of what happened. He told me, in real life, you just would do NOTHING in such a situation. There was a knife at his throat and it took all his energy just to be there and try to keep sane, not to mention dredge up the energy to act in some insane way against a handful of people, playing hero and just die.
Of course you can ask all the questions you want, but what worth do you expect an answer to have regarding to a question describing not only an unlikely situation, but is so far off the usual wealth of experience people have, that a reasonable answer is impossible.
As an example: who has a friend like Chuck Norris or Will Smith who would kill 3 persons to save your life. I certainly don't. And I don't even know whether I would want one - except a cop, maybe, but then your question somehow is useless. 
But more importantly, IF indeed someone is threatened - you, your friend, your wife, the grandma from next door, the owner of the store around the corner - and your friend is killing 3 people to safe the life of whomever, there is just no other option than to call the police, since it IS self-defence or at least you have a claim on that.
Otherwise what can you do? Leave the bodies and trust, no one will get on you? You will have left traces, I mean we are living in a real world and not in some wonderland where you can pick some aspects and pinpoint a certain moral detail.
If on the other hand there is no good reason to have three dead people around you - how would you explain what happened? Why was my life in danger? Why are 3 people dead now? WHAT HAPPENED, for frag's sake? How I can I decide what I would do if I cannot imagine the situation without finding 5 logical snags?
It's like: you love your wife dearly. One day it happens that you have an argument and kill her accidentally. What would you do?
Useless question, because a) either it WON'T happen or b) I don't love my wife or c) I'm pretty insane.
a) nullifies the question.
b) nullifies it as well, because that wasn't asked.
c) is undecidable - one, I don't know how it is to be insane, two, if I'm insane my actions will probably defy every logic.
So if you ask unlikely questions, can you at least put a little effort in finding a story to clad them into that is not worse than the usual Hollywood script?
I mean, yes, you are right, I don't need to answer the questions, but you must have something in mind, asking them, and I can't imagine a usable result here.
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Mytical
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Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 14, 2009 09:01 AM |
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Of course I could come up with a ultra detailed question that examines every little detail. I don't because for every 5 'flaws' you can pick up in a generic scenario there are 100 in the more detailed questions. I try to make INTERESTING threads, and get people to think about things they will not normally think about. Guess that is not welcome by some. I know a lot of people here have issues with rhetorical questions, but I was hoping a bit of soul searching would be a welcome thing. Guess I am just a fool and wrong.
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Darkshadow
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Cerise Princess
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posted July 14, 2009 09:13 AM |
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Quote:
It is something minor (like they had to break into a car to save your life, or a house)
Ok.
Quote:
If it is something not so minor (they had to kill somebody (not self defense) to save your life)
Ok.
Quote:
It was something major (3 or more people died so your friend can save your life).
Ok.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 14, 2009 09:17 AM |
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So would you turn them in or not Darkshadow? ((Sorry your answer is a bit .. confusing)).
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Darkshadow
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posted July 14, 2009 09:17 AM |
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It would be ok for me and I wouldn't turn them in.
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JollyJoker
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 14, 2009 09:53 AM |
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Mytical, that's all nice and well, and this will be my last post in this regard, but let's see it this way:
You ask: For some reason someone (or more than one) has killed your wife or children or all, what would you do?
Change od scenario: you are watching now a not-bad movie. Somehow a guy is losing his wife, shot randomly by some gangsters, collateral damage in some police action that went out of control. The guy finds out about the background situation, uncovers a case of police corruption and starts an investigation to find justice. It ends with a showdown between him and the most corrupt cop in which he kills the villain. You nod at that, thinking, in the shoes of that guy you might have act similar.
Next movie theater: A private investigator is hired by someone whose grown-up daughter died under mysterious circumstances to uncover what really happened. The PI finds out that she worked for some callgirl-ring and wanted to extort a politician who was not only a customer, but good friends with the local syndicate, which got her a one-way ticket to river bottom. Father doesn't know what to do about that, decides to confront the politician and ends up dead as well. (PI reads it and decides to bring justice into things.)
Father should have known better, we all think - but how and what options did he have? Hero is of course the PI here.
Next movie theater: Man lost wife in a hit-and-run, driver was never found. Man accidentally sees a car the desciption fits that the witnesses gave, and starts a little investigating. He finds out that the car is slightly damaged at the front and the guy isn't kosher, since he seems to work as a drug courier for the local boss. But did he kill his wife as well? He decides to try and nail the guy. He buys a gun breaks into the guy's house when he is away, and assaults him when he comes back. He shackles the guy, weapon drawn, and starts interviewing him. The guy denies everything, saying he wasn't even in town when that happened, but when he got back his car had new dents. Dead end, but at this point someone is ringing the bell, things escalate, and the man ends up having shot two persons, in self-defence. He has a couple of problems now (good for the movie), but still no answer about the death of his wife.
The thing here is, that actions are the result of a PROCESS, most of the time. If presented halfway believable, you can understand the actions and motives of most people, and find yourself nodding with each step, if asked, but at some point maybe head-shaking.
I mean, Mytical, you could ask people: would you change your gender via operation if you felt you lived in the wrong body?
Now, people may answer, yes or no, but can they really imagine the situation? However, what about seeing a 90-minute movie about the problem, centering on the guy or girl in question? Things may look different there.
So it's a question of DETAIL and PROCESS. A man may find his family killed and just lose it, living the rest of his miserable life drinking and trying to forget. But let the police may find that his wife and daughter may have been raped before they were killed, and he may be so outraged, furious and angry about it that it may drown the hurt and pain and he may start a career as avenger of raped women or something.
See what I mean, at least?
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Mytical
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Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 14, 2009 10:01 AM |
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For those of us interested more in the journey then the destination, things are not so cut and dry. For some reason you suspect some alterior motive behind my questions, and in a way there is one. One : Bring some 'entertainment' to the OSM which has sorely been lacking.
Two : Ask what I believe are some interesting questions that MIGHT get some people to start thinking about things they might not normally.
Three : Get other people to ask some interesting questions also. (So yes Jolly if you have any of those 'through' questions by all means ask them).
I just simply forgot that their are those who hate hypothetical questions and can't just try to enjoy a discussion.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 14, 2009 10:43 AM |
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Quote:
I just simply forgot that their are those who hate hypothetical questions and can't just try to enjoy a discussion.
Discussion? What discussion? People more or less answered the questions - what was discussed?
And, well, thanks for the summary judgement.
Since you seem to like little yes-no questions here is one for you.
You are member of a jury, dealing with a capital offense for that, in case of a guilty verdict the death penalty is a possibility. If 11 jury members would decide guilty without a moment of hesitation, and you were not a 100% sure that the guilt of the offender has been proven without doubt, and if after some discussion of the evidence presented nothing new would arise and no change in opinion would have happened, how would you decide? Guilty or not? Consider the fact that the judges are not too keen on having another trial - it's likely that you will sit in that room until an unanimous decision is reached.
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Mytical
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Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 14, 2009 11:02 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 11:03, 14 Jul 2009.
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Well, I could ask what the crime was..why I wasn't 100% sure, and a host of other questions. Instead I will just answer the question.
I would vote not-guilty. If I spent a day or 100 years unless something changed my mind, I would continue to vote Not-Guilty. All that matters is 'resonable doubt'. If I have a reason to doubt, that is enough.
And I never said that the answers can not be discussed, it is not my fault they have not been
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JollyJoker
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posted July 14, 2009 11:27 AM |
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Ok, next question - yes, it's unfair, but just to prove the point:
Do you think that questions of morality can be answered on a general and principal level or are there situational exceptions possible?
For the question at hand:
Do you really think the factors NOT detailed in the question will have NO influence on your decision? Like, for example:
The attitude of the other jury members;
The impression the defendant made;
The impression the DA made on you;
The gender of the defendant;
Whether you agree or diagree with the death penalty in general and for the actual crime specifically;
Your personal situation: did you follow procedures fully concentrated or were you distracted by personal issues and are uncertain because you feel you didn't get everything;
The impression the judge made and how likely you will find it that he actually hands out the death penelty or not;
The actual amount of doubt: not a 100% sure is leaving quite a big marging of uncertainty; is a modicum of doubt really enough - it could easily be the result of the special situation and what is at stake.
And so on.
I might ask this a bit differently: Would you say that more details about the actual situation would make you more comfortable finding an answer to the actual question of morality asked?
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Mytical
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Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 14, 2009 11:31 AM |
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Nope, would change nothing for me personally. Even if I was 99.99999999% sure instead of say 50% sure, wouldn't change a bit. The other things would not be a factor for me either. Doesn't even change with the crime committed. For instance..if the crime was rape. A crime I abhor strongly. Even that would not change a thing.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 14, 2009 11:39 AM |
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So it never happened to you until now, that you once thought, you would never ever do this or that (or always so something in a given situation, no matter what), but life proved you wrong and you did it (or not)?
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Mytical
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Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 14, 2009 11:47 AM |
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Lol that is a odd question (in way you phrased it), but of course there have been those times. While it is nice to consider what actions one could possibly take, it is not like I am unaware that life can throw one curveballs. That is why it is a HYPOTHETICAL situation. Something fun to contemplate, and not at all meant to be as serious as you seem to think. I am not trying to psychoannalyze people, but am just curious as to what they think they would do in the situation.
I could give you at least one really detailed instance where I THOUGHT I would do one thing, but when it come down to it I couldn't. These questions are not "This is set in stone and you HAVE to do what you say should the occasion arrise" but "What do you THINK you would do in the situation."
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Elvin
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posted July 14, 2009 11:51 AM |
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Just play along JJ, easier and simpler
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JollyJoker
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posted July 14, 2009 11:52 AM |
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I agree completely.
That's why I say that more details would help, because on that general level for me at least, DEPENDING ON THE DETAILS, I might act one way or the opposite.
Remember the first set of questions; I even wrote so because I could easily envision me acting in SEVERAL ways there.
Edit: Quote:
Just play along JJ, easier and simpler
Not for me, Elvin.
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Mytical
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Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 14, 2009 11:55 AM |
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He is more Lawful Neutral..and thus needs more 'rules'. Where I am more Chaotic and don't need such large ammount of 'rules'. His questions can be as complicated and through as he likes. He is not forced to even acknowledge my questions.
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antipaladin
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posted July 14, 2009 12:27 PM |
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If those are very close friends and they did it out of loyality, most chances are ill be loyal to them,at all costs.
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