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| Thread: Free will vs 'Fate' |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · NEXT» |
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Mytical
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posted December 08, 2010 11:28 AM |
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Free will vs 'Fate'
This is a continuation of a friendly debate...
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Okay then what about this.
My free-will or choice is mine and mine alone right. So I am living day to day and doing that present bit. However I am operating "under a bigger umbrella" in a world that is full of other's doing the same thing that may or may not affect me and then there are all of the environmental things, like hurricanes, revolutions etc. and the whole thing gets blended to create a future result for me...my fate. What happened to me at the end.
I guess to me Fate is too 'robotic' when it is not encompassing all factors that can determine a life or lives.
Interesting point. My reply would be that this would fall into the 'Fate' category of thinking..and that in that instance any 'free will' would be illusion. IE..your decisions are already predetermined, you just think you have a choice. However..even if not..the free will of others can of course affect what happens to you (in the 'free will' belief) as can random events. It is not 'fate' that it happen however.
Let me try to explain my view on it. Tornado hits a bunch of homes. Fate right? Nothing could be done to stop it? Right? Wrong. The people in those homes CHOSE to live there. If they had CHOSEN to live elsewhere..the tornado would have hit nothing. Thus free will led there to be houses for the tornado to hit.
If a revolution hits..you can chose to stay in the area it hit, and take your chances..or you can chose to hide out in the forest until one side or the other wins. Either way, it is free choice.
However, in the fate category..it doesn't matter. If the houses were not there, then the tornado would have hit somewhere where there were houses. IE houses would get destroyed regardless.
If there is a revolution, and a certain person dies then even if there was no revolution..at that exact time that person would die some other way.
That is the big and main difference between free will and fate. Fate..humans have no bearing on the outcome. What will happen will happen, regardless of what somebody does or does not do.
IE somebody stops a kid from being killed. Even if that somebody had not been there then something else would have intervened. A gunman would have been hit by a car, meteor, godzilla, etc and the boy would have lived .. even had that person who prevented the death had not been there.
In free will..the boy might or might not die because of the choices he, or somebody else made.
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Shares
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posted December 08, 2010 11:52 AM |
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Edited by Shares at 11:52, 08 Dec 2010.
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Quote:
However, in the fate category..it doesn't matter. If the houses were not there, then the tornado would have hit somewhere where there were houses. IE houses would get destroyed regardless.
I think you miss something here. The tornado would also be predetermined to hit that place. Wether the humans live there or not. Even in a "fate determined" world they would have to choose where to live. Living things do make choices. Unliving do not. It is actually the whole point of life. It's what it was designed, predetermined if you want, to make choices. That we propably would choose the same thing over and over if we were to be given the same choice if we had the exact same situation (where we have not changed either). It will not negate the choice.
I will say this one last time, because this is very important, and useful in life; you are as free as you've realised you're not.
*enters lurker mode*
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markkur
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posted December 08, 2010 11:58 AM |
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Quote:
This is a continuation of a friendly debate...
Oh yeaaahhh! I'm beet red, my BP cracked the glass on the dial and I'm grinding my teeth even though I don't have any!
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Let me try to explain my view on it. Tornado hits a bunch of homes. Fate right? Nothing could be done to stop it? Right? Wrong. The people in those homes CHOSE to live there. If they had CHOSEN to live elsewhere..the tornado would have hit nothing. Thus free will led there to be houses for the tornado to hit.
If a revolution hits..you can chose to stay in the area it hit, and take your chances..or you can chose to hide out in the forest until one side or the other wins. Either way, it is free choice.
However, in the fate category..it doesn't matter. If the houses were not there, then the tornado would have hit somewhere where there were houses. IE houses would get destroyed regardless.
If there is a revolution, and a certain person dies then even if there was no revolution..at that exact time that person would die some other way.
That is the big and main difference between free will and fate. Fate..humans have no bearing on the outcome. What will happen will happen, regardless of what somebody does or does not do.
I think I see where "our snag" is. Things are too black and white with you No but, seriously I think there needs to be a gradient of some sort. Something that reflects that while things will happen on their own apart from anyting we do sometimes those things are greatly affected by our choices leading up to the whatever. (trying to be precise here with 'whatever')
This is a RL example. I worked for a long time at making Car/Truck batteries and that involved lead. First off I chose to run the risk because I was a greedy ? and didn't care about health Now I was getting lead-exposure and the more you get the worse it can be. As a hobby at the time I also was in to building Hot-rods and it was leaded gas at the time, so I ate more lead. Now in addition I had a small old house that I bought and it was full of dust from lead-paint and I did not know it. Now, not any one thing was my doom but all of those things combined and lead did finally kill me when I got runned over by a truck hauling lead last week.
So I made lots of choices along the way but some things were not known about lead back then and the guy driving the lead truck was lost and was not supposed to be in my part of the state.
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Doomforge
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posted December 08, 2010 12:05 PM |
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There's no fate but what we make 
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Mytical
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posted December 08, 2010 12:08 PM |
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See, I just do not comprehend. If free will can change ANYTHING, then it is not fate.
Fate is pretty black and white. If by turning left you avoid being hit by a piano dropped from a second story house..then you were not fated to die in the first place. It is when the choices make no difference that it is 'fate'.
The two just can not possibly exist at the same time. It just seems impossible. Either what you chose to do will change the outcome, or regardless of what you do the outcome will always be the same...
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markkur
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posted December 08, 2010 12:13 PM |
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See, I just do not comprehend. If free will can change ANYTHING, then it is not fate.
Isn't fate just the end of your story? And free-will a part of writing that story?
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Mytical
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posted December 08, 2010 12:17 PM |
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Hmm interesting way of looking at it. However, that is not how I see it. Either the story's beginning/middle/and end was determined from the beginning, or it was made up as it went. If it doesn't matter what roads your 'protagonist' travels..it is fate. If it does..then it is free will .
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JollyJoker
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posted December 08, 2010 12:23 PM |
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I would like to hear any evidence that hints on the existance of something called fate - whatever that is.
What is this fate supposed to be?
Isn't it in reality so, that ONLY IN HINDSIGHT it seemed that something was "fated" for this or that destiny? Isn't it in reality so that we over-emphasize the personal, subjective point of view?
Children, as you may know, tend to bring everything in connection with them. If the parents are arguing with each other, it's because of THEM, and so on.
Humans have the tendency to "take things personal" good things, the same as bad things. "Why me?", you know that famous cry. That's why they look for reasons. I didn't do anything wrong, so why am I having so much bad luck?
That's based on the assumption that there should be a kind of justice - but there is no evidence for that.
It's just RANDOMNESS
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markkur
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posted December 08, 2010 12:24 PM |
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Quote:
Hmm interesting way of looking at it. However, that is not how I see it. Either the story's beginning/middle/and end was determined from the beginning, or it was made up as it went. If it doesn't matter what roads your 'protagonist' travels..it is fate. If it does..then it is free will .
That oddly sounds a lot like a Calvinist faith thing which I do strongly disagree with. If God IS and he sees all of the "time-line", that would never release me from my doing what I have to do, making choices and so-on because I cannot see the ends of all things. Maybe that was a huge left turn for you but the either/or" seems very familiar to me and many of those folks have a notion like nothing they do will make a difference.
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Mytical
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posted December 08, 2010 12:44 PM |
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It's indeed a 'left turn' because I am not sure which is correct. Free Will or Fate. I will be honest, and this is not meant as a slight to Christians of any kind..but Christians should be very 'Free Will'. As according to the bible 'God' gave everybody free will. So it seems counter intuitive that he then would guide 'fate'.
Sort of like offering a choice between chocolate and cauliflower..then blocking the door to the path to the chocolate. Not an actual choice. Thus the 'illusion' of free will. Now that doesn't mean he (or she) can't know ALL the possible outcomes mind you. Just that he (or she) should never interfere or then it is not free choice. By that I mean even miracles. They should never happen, because they then remove 'free will' from the equation.
That is however, absolutely yet another thread lol. My apologies.
I do not know which it is, I am still seeking answers. However, regardless of fate or 'free will' I am a strong believer in accepting responsibility for your own decisions.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 08, 2010 12:44 PM |
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But that's the problem. If God sees the "timeline", whatever that is, and that timeline says something, I have no freedom of choice anymore, since there is JUST ONE POSSIBLE FUTURE.
I'm only under the impression to have a choice, but either it's clear which choice I will makae or it doesn't matter at all which choice I will make.
God seeing the timeline would mean, ultimately, that god could determine the state of the universe at any one time.
Apart from the fact that there is too much evidence for the general impossibility of this, even for god, it's difficult to imagine that god would want things to run like a clockwork. It makes no sense for god to know wwnything before it actually happens, and it doesn't fit with the evidence.
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del_diablo
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Manifest
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posted December 08, 2010 01:04 PM |
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I think there is a confusion of statistic effect and actual difference in choice.
A country is a hivemind of a very weird sort, and it does choices as a hivemind, even if it is not that aware of itself.
The individ can not do anything about that as a individ, but can in best case scenarion sway the rest, which happens after a bunch of random stringed together conditions.
I can chose to do A
If the opertunity is present, I can also chose to do B.
The oppertunity is decided of a random tandom of other peoples choices.
So there can not be a predetermined fate, only a implied "path" in a short term course based on where things is going.
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Elodin
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posted December 08, 2010 01:58 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 14:00, 08 Dec 2010.
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God seeing the timeline would mean, ultimately, that god could determine the state of the universe at any one time.
Sure, God could cause anything to happen. But foreknowledge that an even is going to happen does not mean causation of the event.
If God knows a man will chose to rob a bank on April 19, 2011 at 4:52 PM and shot a man named Bob Tate who has a wife and four children it does not mean that God caused any of those things or that the bank robber did not chose to rob the bank and murder someone.
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Apart from the fact that there is too much evidence for the general impossibility of this, even for god, it's difficult to imagine that god would want things to run like a clockwork. It makes no sense for god to know wwnything before it actually happens, and it doesn't fit with the evidence.
Yay, you have finally admitted that God exists!!!!! 
Now show the proof that says God can't know what is going to happen, since you say there is too much evidence that it is impossible for God to know the future.
Methinks you have bitten off more than you can chew but I eagerly await your overwhelming evidence of God's inability to know the future.
Oh, I just ate a homemade pizza for breakfast. I assure you it was my choice to do so, not fate. 
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Shares
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posted December 08, 2010 02:10 PM |
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If god is all knowing, and time is fixed, then he would have caused every event caused by man as he made man. He then would have known every action every human would ever do, and thus cause them since he decided upon this way to make it. The randomness of natural events (storms, volcanos earth quakes) should also have been his responsability and his caused, as he choose to make the world the way it is.
If an all knowing being chooses to do something, and knows of all the consequences (since he's all knowing), he will then also choose all those consequences.
This is what convinced me that christianity is wrong. Either there's no omnipotent and all knowing god or he's an utter snowhole! There's might, how ever, be an not all knowing god, which the bible suggests. That's the whole point with Jesus. It was a way for god to live as a human and understand the burdens of humanity.
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Elodin
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posted December 08, 2010 02:27 PM |
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If an all knowing being chooses to do something, and knows of all the consequences (since he's all knowing), he will then also choose all those consequences.
This is what convinced me that christianity is wrong. Either there's no omnipotent and all knowing god or he's an utter snowhole!
God chose to make a man who can make choices. Even choices God does not approve of.
Again, forknowledge is not causation. If I know a bridge is out and you drive down the road and drive off the broken bridge I did not cause you to drive off the bridge.
Take it another step forward. If I am trying to wave you down and yell, "Stop, the bridge is out"" and you hear me and give me the middle finger salute and drive to your doom I did not cause you to drive off the bridge. God is yelling "Stop, the bridge is out!" all the while too many people are giving him the middle finger salute and then blame him for their destruction.
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There's might, how ever, be an not all knowing god, which the bible suggests. That's the whole point with Jesus. It was a way for god to live as a human and understand the burdens of humanity.
Jesus is God living life as a human being. Of course before his glorification he did not know all things. The Bible plainly teaches that he did not.
However, you are wrong if you are suggesting that the Bible says God does not know all things. The human manifestation of God known as Jesus did not know all things until his resurrection/glorificaiton. But while God manifested himself as the not-all-knowing man Jesus God was still the all-knowing eternal Spirit. God is not limited to only existing in one way at a time.
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Fauch
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posted December 08, 2010 02:32 PM |
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fate is different from determinism, right?
fate says that if a tornado is to strike somewhere, it will happen no matter what.
determinism would rather say, if all the required causes are in presence at the same time, there will be a tornado, which makes it possible to predict the tornado.
as I understand the word fate, there would be no need for a cause. if something has to happen, it will happen and there will be no way to predict it.
but if no cause was needed, then wouldn't that particular phenomen manifest itself everywhere, all the time?
you could say that it is decided by god, but in that case there is a cause, which is god.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 08, 2010 02:35 PM |
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Elodin, before I do that I wait for your overwhelming evidence for "the future" as in "ONE future" existing "already".
We know that time may run different for people in different locations, and we know that time is no constant.
What you suggest is, that for "god" (if he would exist) creation and time was like a movie (that he has no part in making) which he can rewind and fast forward any way he likes, just looking at it.
This still implies that the movie is unchangable. It's one movie, it's always the same, there is a "perspective" that allows to see it in total.
In short - it has already been recorded.
In this case you are mistakeing "free will" with "not knowing that we hang on wires".
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Shares
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I am. Thusly I am.
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posted December 08, 2010 02:44 PM |
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God chose to make a man who can make choices. Even choices God does not approve of.
Again, forknowledge is not causation. If I know a bridge is out and you drive down the road and drive off the broken bridge I did not cause you to drive off the bridge.
It would be more like building a bridge that you know will fail the next time a car drives over it.
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Take it another step forward. If I am trying to wave you down and yell, "Stop, the bridge is out"" and you hear me and give me the middle finger salute and drive to your doom I did not cause you to drive off the bridge. God is yelling "Stop, the bridge is out!" all the while too many people are giving him the middle finger salute and then blame him for their destruction.
That is true.
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Fauch
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posted December 08, 2010 02:47 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 14:49, 08 Dec 2010.
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We know that time may run different for people in different locations, and we know that time is no constant.
really? if you are talking about the theory of relativity, I do not see how it proves that. the only thing it proves is that light doesn't reach instantly our eyes, in which case we would all perceive an event instantly as it happens.
that the same things with sounds, when you hear thunder 10s after the lightning. that just means the sound take a certain time to travel to your ears.
you will never hear the thunder before you see the lightning, because light travels faster than sound.
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 08, 2010 02:52 PM |
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Edited by JoonasTo at 15:02, 08 Dec 2010.
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You have a damn weird conception of fate Mytical.
I don't think I have much else to say.
Edit: Actually, you all have pretty weird conceptions of fate. Might want to come to conclusion what is fate before starting this.
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