Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info mods forum | HOMM4: info CTG forum | HOMM5: info mods forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: New (unofficial) patch for ToE / AI mod
Thread: New (unofficial) patch for ToE / AI mod This thread is 46 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 20 30 40 ... 42 43 44 45 46 · «PREV / NEXT»
Quantomas
Quantomas


Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
posted June 24, 2020 07:52 PM
Edited by Quantomas at 19:55, 24 Jun 2020.

As mentioned earlier, I will detail the technical issues that cause the AI to break in a blog post once I have a bit leeway to drill down to the facts. It is absolutely non-trivial. It never ceases to amaze me, how you guys always know better how the AI works than the guy who developed it and works on this type of tech for ten years and who is not a hobbyist programmer.

It is enough that MMH55 breaks the AI so badly that it can only survive with Magnomagus' scripts in a MMH55 game. This doesn't imply that the scripts control the AI directly.

Lately there seems a barrage on all kinds of media, including here on HC, in which Magnomagus, Dredknight, Gidoza and others try to convince me how great MMH55 is. I have no idea what purpose this has. I have already stated that I can respect MMH55 as a mod in its own right. And I have published a generous license that technically does little more than enforcing fair use. What is harsh about a requirement to include the documentation coming with the original work or to display a message that discloses to the user how the original work has been altered? Even open source distributions frequently have similar requirements.

If anything this maybe well meant but ill placed support seems to jeopardize any cooperation, because it apparently emboldens Magnomagus to shower me with all kinds of phony claims. His latest is that my company has no right to the IP because it was founded in 2016, prior to the first release of 3.1j.

I will say it one last time, the license I published is fair, and the fair use principles it stipulates won't be something I will drop. Nor any other terms.

You need to sit down, calm yourself, and think about for some time whether you want to accept it or not have the legal right to use my work.

I won't issue C&D letters tomorrow, so take your time, but eventually I will have to make a decision, also regarding whether to skip the 3.1k release (which is compatible with MMH55) and move directly to 3.2, which involves a complete overhaul of the combat AI and how the AI interfaces with the game, which for this reason alone will not be compatible with MMH55.

In the meantime, before I get to writing my blog post and you can read about the technical details involved, you can do the following:

Watch Aruarian's livestreams: HoMM 5.5: Bulya (Dungeon) vs. aruarian (Sylvan) - Ranked match (3/4)

You can clearly see with what size of his army Aruarian can take on much, much bigger stacks. The claim that Deadly Environment is a map with exceptional neutral stack density doesn't diminish my argument in the least. On other maps similar situations easily could occur maybe in month 3.

The other thing you can do: as 3.1.20 has scripts disabled you can compare its performance on an installation of MMH55 versus an installation on a clean vanilla TotE 3.1. This is effectively the raw AI performance, before scripts.
____________
Do you love strategy games? Join us on Discord: discord.gg/JKU6tey

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted June 24, 2020 08:12 PM

Quantomas said:
And I have published a generous license that technically does little more than enforcing fair use. What is harsh about a requirement to include the documentation coming with the original work or to display a message that discloses to the user how the original work has been altered? Even open source distributions frequently have similar requirements.

...

I will say it one last time, the license I published is fair, and the fair use principles it stipulates won't be something I will drop. Nor any other terms.



Quantomas, I wasn't going to say anything but this rubs me the wrong way. The "fair" license agreement you put forth includes, among other things, a clause (6.5) that states:

Quote:
If you redistribute the AI as a part of your own mod, you grant TESLA MINDS a permanent,
transferable right to include any feature from your mod and use it at any time and its sole
discretion free of charge. This right doesn’t cease upon termination of this EULA (Section
8).


Can you please explain to us, what this clause has anything to do with the fair use principles of a piece of software? The way it reads, to put it generally, it gives the rights of the utilizing platform (the mod using your AI process) to the owner of the software (your AI). Is there even one example of such clause in real life?

One last thing: You say

Quantomas said:

Lately there seems a barrage on all kinds of media, including here on HC, in which Magnomagus, Dredknight, Gidoza and others try to convince me how great MMH55 is. I have no idea what purpose this has.


For the love of God man, if so many people are saying that MMH5.5 is good, why does it bother you? and could it be that it's actually true?

I'll disclaim again: I do not represent MMH5.5.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Quantomas
Quantomas


Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
posted June 24, 2020 08:22 PM
Edited by Quantomas at 20:47, 25 Jun 2020.

thGryphn said:
Quote:
If you redistribute the AI as a part of your own mod, you grant TESLA MINDS a permanent, transferable right to include any feature from your mod and use it at any time and its sole discretion free of charge. This right doesn’t cease upon termination of this EULA (Section 8).


Can you please explain to us, what this clause has anything to do with the fair use principles of a piece of software? The way it reads, to put it generally, it gives the rights of the utilizing platform (the mod using your AI process) to the owner of the software (your AI). Is there even one example of such clause in real life?



Isn't that clear? You use a mod from a professional programmer that effectively with 3.1k has seen 40,000 hours of work as an investment.

So you want to use it for free. With offering nothing in return?

Terms like that usually are introduced to give both parties a secure legal basis for their work.

Anyway, it doesn't pertain to your work. I suggested to Magnomagus that he splits it into a separate mod so that it isn't covered by these terms.


____________
Do you love strategy games? Join us on Discord: discord.gg/JKU6tey

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted June 24, 2020 09:25 PM
Edited by thGryphn at 21:25, 24 Jun 2020.

I am disappointed to be honest...

This is a community that has mostly operated on honor principle, giving credit where it's due; at least, that's how it should operate in my view.

All these legal talk and claims, asking for "something" in return, etc. ruins the whole spirit. I for one, contributed in MMH5.5 with nothing in return in mind, just the recognition of what I did. So many modders before our time? What did they get in return for the millions of hours put as effort? Just recognition, and that should be it in a modding community.

MMH5.5 is a community project that's distributed freely with the whole purpose of improving on the gameplay experience of this community. Your AI process has been used in MMH5.5 since it's inception in 2015, with top credits in MMH5.5 mentioning your AI work. You knew it all along, you have been around on and off but you never publicly said you have any objections to it. So I'm baffled with this recent surge in your objections of your AI work being used by MMH5.5.

Look, you have a point in saying that MMH5.5 is not giving the ideal conditions for your AI to perform at its best, and this should be acknowledged by MMH5.5. What I don't understand is, instead of focusing on your work for the better versions of your AI, you seem to have put MMH5.5 on your crosshairs. I mean, why??

Why can't you just leave MMH5.5 be, with its inferior state, with it acknowledging that your AI is not working at its best capacity in there? You don't have to "support" MMH5.5. You don't have to modify or customize your new AI for MMH5.5. Just let it be... What harm MMH5.5 does and can do to you, your work, or the performance of your new and better AI? On the contrary, having MMH5.5 with an inferior AI would shine your new AI even further.

In sum, yeah, all this puts my spirits down. It's a modding community after all, not professional software development for profit. Things should be in lighter spirits, with a community atmosphere. I don't know about you, but I do have a real life with real-life problems. I'm here for the fun, and this unnecessary bitterness and resentment just kills it.


 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Gidoza
Gidoza


Famous Hero
posted June 24, 2020 10:20 PM
Edited by Gidoza at 22:34, 24 Jun 2020.

I myself am confused @Quantomas your claim that I am trying to sell MMH55 to you.

Think of this another way.

Let's say that the AI is inscribed to Vanilla H5 as planned and it all works wonderfully.  Once we see that done, we will have to further discuss the strategy aspect you've mentioned, which comes down to a number of things, such as...

1) Are the units and towns actually balanced?  If not, we need a mod.

2) Are the skill trees balanced and give good strategic options?  If not, we need a mod.

3) Do the skills as extant in the game provide strategic depth in and of themselves, or detract from that strategic depth?  If the latter is the case, then we need a mod.



To put that another way - I can't imagine playing Vanilla H5 and thinking that nothing about it needs to change.  Perhaps it could change in a variety of different ways by different authors with different visions - all I need to say is that the strategic depth of Vanilla H5 is ridiculous because the game isn't even designed properly.

I can give a very simple example to illustrate this point.

Take the Knight's standard ability: Training or whatever it's called.  That gives all your units bonus Retal damage and decreases the cost for using the Training building in your main town.

I barely need to think for 5 seconds to figure out what kind of plan I would use with this ability.  Since it has no relation to any Hero stats or Hero level, I am going to aim to get my secondary Hero to have Expert Training along with the Expert Trainer ability that reduces costs by 35%.  I don't need to burden my main Hero with this because it takes away from other more important skills I'd want him to have instead, besides the fact that I want my main Hero to be out killing things, not coming back home every week to train and upgrade troops.  Donating a few experience points to a secondary Hero to knock down Training prices by some 50% is such a massive "bonus" (I put "bonus" in quotes because this maneuver is so obvious that it makes one wonder if it is really a bonus or discount at all) that it is neglect of me to avoid doing it - sort of like taking an Ore Pit or a Sawmill as soon as possible - that's not strategy, it's necessity.  How much gold I have to actually upgrade the units in question is secondary to having the right skills to upgrade them.

Contrast this to the idea that someone came up with (which could be in H5.5 or any other mod) that just ditches Training discounts entirely, removes Expert Trainer from the game, and allows any Hero whatsoever to use the Training building in the town.  Instantly, my whole perspective on the matter changes.  I'm not focused on levelling up a secondary Hero anymore (at least not for that purpose).  Instead, I'm asking myself a number of questions: How can I maximize my use of this building?  If I want to make upgrades better than Peasants to Archers, how much Gold will I need to do it?  Is it worth not affording some troops in the town at all to force more high-level units into my ranks?

Notice that all of these are questions without one clear answer.  That's what makes it strategic - because I can take this one of any number of ways.  Because there's no "Expert Trainer" for me to learn, I don't need to be bothered with obvious and self-evident answers and actually need to think about my solution.  The solution I aim for may have impacts that drive my Hero to certain parts of the map rather than others in search of loot, treasure, extra income - whatever, to maintain my intended plan.  While the latter point is true in Vanilla H5 as well - it is secondary, and that's my problem with it.  The strategy of a strategy game should *NEVER BE SECONDARY*.  Magnomagus (or whoever) realized the very simple maxim in this case that "perfection exists not when there is nothing more to add, but nothing more to take away" (yes I realize it's not applying in other places in H5.5 - that's another conversation).  Expert Training doesn't need to be there and the game fundamentally feels no change other than improvement by simply removing it.  And poof - you have more strategy.

Why would I not want this?

You can spin this as my trying to "sell" H5.5 to you if you like, but you're always insisting on the importance of strategy in the game and how that's relevant to the AI.  Well here's a good example.  And I have dozens of them.  My point is not that H5.5 has got everything right (if you read what I said carefully and also elsewhere, I've criticized H5.5 fairly brutally over the years and have never let up on that for a single second); my point is that it's got some things right and it's neglect to simply ignore things if your plan is an engagement with an epic strategy game.  You could also have made a perfect AI for Heroes 3 Complete as well - I'd still expect tons of changes to the game after the AI's inclusion not because I have any dislike for your AI, but because the AI is functioning within the atmosphere of a flawed and imbalanced game.  It doesn't make any sense to have one without the other.


EDIT:  By the way Quantomas - I bothered to watch some of the match you linked above regarding taking on really powerful Neutral creatures.  Besides not immediately noticing that much of a difference in what I'm able to do in H5.5 and what I can do in H5 against Neutrals (honestly, it seems the same to me), I noticed as well that the use of Regeneration was fairly prominent, which happens to be a spell I've *removed* from my version of the game precisely because I find it gamey.  I simply don't have the Regeneration spell in any game I play, because it doesn't exist.  I can't execute some of the strategies that this guy was executing because I noticed them a long time ago and banished them forever.  This isn't an H5.5 problem - these are basic design issues that are solved by hitting the delete button.  As previously discussed, I've had similar reactions to Town Portal, Dimension Door, Summon Creatures; and I'm also not a fan of spells the AI won't use itself (such as Arcane Crystal, Blade Barrier...), and I'm VERY harsh on my modification of the Resurrection spell as well.  Please tell me how any of the things I just said are somehow advocacy for H5.5.  They aren't.  Meanwhile, the existence of the Regeneration spell is something that's in Vanilla too - so that's not an H5.5 problem beyond the fact that they didn't bother to remove it.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted June 24, 2020 11:15 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 06:47, 25 Jun 2020.

EDIT: Alright i had not properly read Quantomas post above and was in poor state of mind, I will rescind my complaint
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
xuxo
xuxo


Promising
Known Hero
posted June 24, 2020 11:29 PM
Edited by xuxo at 23:32, 24 Jun 2020.

Well, I'm going to give my opinion. Magnomagus, me for example, 5 years ago, I prohibited you from using my mod. But you told me it was public, that you could use it without my permission. I insisted, but you didn't give in.  and I decided to disappear.. Now I have returned, and under a simple condition, which I am sure you will respect, I have given you permission to use it and even ... modify it. I'm not spiteful. But ... Quantomas doesn't want you to use his work. The question is ..... this time you are going to respect the decision of the creator of the mod? You have a history, I have forgiven them because 5.5 is not you, it is your team, and you have a good team.

I hope I can collaborate with everyone who wants to, I don't want to choose a side to work on.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted June 24, 2020 11:38 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 07:08, 25 Jun 2020.

I didn't like how that went down xuxo, but I'm glad we have come to an agreement.

____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted June 24, 2020 11:53 PM
Edited by thGryphn at 00:12, 25 Jun 2020.

Gidoza said:

EDIT:  By the way Quantomas - I bothered to watch some of the match you linked above regarding taking on really powerful Neutral creatures.  Besides not immediately noticing that much of a difference in what I'm able to do in H5.5 and what I can do in H5 against Neutrals (honestly, it seems the same to me), I noticed as well that the use of Regeneration was fairly prominent, which happens to be a spell I've *removed* from my version of the game precisely because I find it gamey.  I simply don't have the Regeneration spell in any game I play, because it doesn't exist.  I can't execute some of the strategies that this guy was executing because I noticed them a long time ago and banished them forever.  This isn't an H5.5 problem - these are basic design issues that are solved by hitting the delete button.  As previously discussed, I've had similar reactions to Town Portal, Dimension Door, Summon Creatures; and I'm also not a fan of spells the AI won't use itself (such as Arcane Crystal, Blade Barrier...), and I'm VERY harsh on my modification of the Resurrection spell as well.  Please tell me how any of the things I just said are somehow advocacy for H5.5.  They aren't.  Meanwhile, the existence of the Regeneration spell is something that's in Vanilla too - so that's not an H5.5 problem beyond the fact that they didn't bother to remove it.



If you recall H5 TOE as it is originally, there are many more exploits than the Regen spell that enables pretty much all factions to simply destroy neutral armies without any losses. Quantomas looking at what's possible in MMH5.5 is ironic since there are much less such exploits in MMH5.5 compared to the original game. Vast majority of those are crushed in MMH5.5, a few more even recently. I believe with the upcoming changes Regen will not be as powerful as it appears in some of those battles.



xuxo said:
Well, I'm going to give my opinion. Magnomagus, me for example, 5 years ago, I prohibited you from using my mod. But you told me it was public, that you could use it without my permission. I insisted, but you didn't give in.  and I decided to disappear.. Now I have returned, and under a simple condition, which I am sure you will respect, I have given you permission to use it and even ... modify it. I'm not spiteful. But ... Quantomas doesn't want you to use his work. The question is ..... this time you are going to respect the decision of the creator of the mod? You have a history, I have forgiven them because 5.5 is not you, it is your team, and you have a good team.

I hope I can collaborate with everyone who wants to, I don't want to choose a side to work on.


Xuxo, YOU are in the right about what happened between MMH5.5 and you, and I believe @magnomagus would want to take some things back if he could. But what's happened with Quantomas is totally different.

He was well aware of MMH5.5, and well communicative with magnomagus even before MMH5.5. He never publicly expressed objection to his "publicly released" AI work in MMH5.5. Have you read the first post in this forum where he released his work? http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=34594&PID=928659#focus

Being a quite clever and resourceful person with no problems expressing/asserting his opinions, if he had any objection all these 5 years, I believe we would know about it loud and clear. There was though nothing until recently. And, that to me is very curious.

MMH5.5 is not on his way in his quest for a better AI, so why put this effort trying to take it down instead of focusing on his work?

If there are any experts around, I'd like to hear: How can a piece of software publicly released for free use 5 years ago almost 10 years ago be licensed now under some kind of agreement?

Here is Quantomas's first post of this thread for your convenience:

Quantomas said:


Hi to all HoMM fans!

I have created an AI patch for ToE that significantly improves on the AI performance. I loved the artwork and design of Heroes 5 but was somehow not satisfied with the AI, after I had experienced the glorious H3 AI back in the ol' days.

Beyond that I hope that this first (unofficial) patch can be the start of a community driven effort to expand Heroes 5 into a game that comes close to the vision its fans have. This is true in particular for the modders who have made a good creative effort to improve on the original game and would like to do more. As such I believe we have here a unique opportunity that thankfully has been approved by Ubisoft and that allows the community to direct a mature game project. H5 can live on, even with its bigger brother H6 on the horizon.

This AI mod is technically a binary patch that can be installed in parallel to the official version. But because the work on the patch was much more involved, we (as a community) have the opportunity to use this work as a basis to improve and implement other features we desire (more details follow further below).

This AI mod is a full rewrite of the AI inspired by the spirit of H3 and the chess computer program Fritz that has proven that a computer AI can be a match for world champions. It is meant to give the strategic gameplay of H5 a boost by playing against dedicated AI opponents who know the ropes. This AI does not cheat, on higher difficulty levels the only advantage it has is the lower starting resources for the player.

You can download the AI mod from www.bonddisc.com/ref/H5AI_31.zip. This zip archive contains a readme with installation instructions.

Included with the AI mod are three new maps (Icy Defense, Island Hoppers and My Home is My Castle) that are intended as a challenge for veteran players.

I hope you enjoy playing Heroes ToE with this AI mod. This is a fan created patch, but by no means a closed effort. I hope that this can be the foundation of a community effort to develop H5 into a direction its fans desire. You tell me what you would like to see improved -- the AI on the combat map, the AI on the adventure map but also other features you desire if it is feasible to implement them. It should also be possible to create the necessary interfaces for advanced mods, if this can help the overall effort.

As such I hope on feedback from you.

I am certain there are bugs in this (unofficial) patch. I have already a short list of issues that need fixing but if you encounter a bug please let me know.


Come on now, Quantomas...

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Gidoza
Gidoza


Famous Hero
posted June 25, 2020 12:48 AM

thGryphn said:
Gidoza said:

EDIT:  By the way Quantomas - I bothered to watch some of the match you linked above regarding taking on really powerful Neutral creatures.  Besides not immediately noticing that much of a difference in what I'm able to do in H5.5 and what I can do in H5 against Neutrals (honestly, it seems the same to me), I noticed as well that the use of Regeneration was fairly prominent, which happens to be a spell I've *removed* from my version of the game precisely because I find it gamey.  I simply don't have the Regeneration spell in any game I play, because it doesn't exist.  I can't execute some of the strategies that this guy was executing because I noticed them a long time ago and banished them forever.  This isn't an H5.5 problem - these are basic design issues that are solved by hitting the delete button.  As previously discussed, I've had similar reactions to Town Portal, Dimension Door, Summon Creatures; and I'm also not a fan of spells the AI won't use itself (such as Arcane Crystal, Blade Barrier...), and I'm VERY harsh on my modification of the Resurrection spell as well.  Please tell me how any of the things I just said are somehow advocacy for H5.5.  They aren't.  Meanwhile, the existence of the Regeneration spell is something that's in Vanilla too - so that's not an H5.5 problem beyond the fact that they didn't bother to remove it.



If you recall H5 TOE as it is originally, there are many more exploits than the Regen spell that enables pretty much all factions to simply destroy neutral armies without any losses. Quantomas looking at what's possible in MMH5.5 is ironic since there are much less such exploits in MMH5.5 compared to the original game. Vast majority of those are crushed in MMH5.5, a few more even recently. I believe with the upcoming changes Regen will not be as powerful as it appears in some of those battles.



Thanks for the reply, Gryphn.

See, this is a minor point - I don't begrudge the M5.5 team at all for trying to balance Regeneration, and that's cool.  I just see it a different way: that based on how the game works and what the Regeneration spell is and how it functions, I'm skeptical that Regeneration could ever be balanced with any given values whatsoever and I really wouldn't want to play in a game that had it.  And that's it.  If I'm in the minority, that's fine.     At the very least, it's worth some discussion.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Velote
Velote

Tavern Dweller
posted June 25, 2020 02:11 AM

Ill attitude besours all effort.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted June 25, 2020 07:02 AM
Edited by magnomagus at 07:24, 25 Jun 2020.

Alright I have sat to calm down and I will rescind my complaints against Quantomas, and issue an apology, i was in a poor state of mind and had not read some of his comments properly. The pressure of protecting so many peoples interests has taken a heavy toll on me and a lot of stuff got mixed up in my head in the wrong order. Quantomas is also welcome again on our Discord server.

In order to protect the work H55 contributers I wish to discuss with them the creation of licenses for their work in order to be able to comply with Quantomas demands.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Velote
Velote

Tavern Dweller
posted June 25, 2020 02:36 PM
Edited by Velote at 14:43, 25 Jun 2020.

Having read through Quantomas' recent surprisingly immature posts, I now have a bad suspicion that you are falling in for manipulation, Magnomagus. I'd bet my pinky finger Quantomas' childish 'master plan' all along with his EULA and all that legalist crap, which can't have place in a hobby community, had been concocting for quite a while before it surfaced here.

Creature & skill balance is an aspect just as important as AI, nobody's gonna play vanilla H5 for that sole reason, even with a stellar AI. In every place where HMM55 has crutches / scripts / workarounds, those exist only to compensate for less-than-challenging AI behavior in the first place; they are a coping mechanism and not a defining characteristic of the mod. You gotta have a better AI in the first place to get rid of those, not keep a better AI closeted because no mod in existence is currently deserving of such a blessing.

To get rid of scripts / cheats / whatever one first has to have an AI that's capable of delivering the same level of challenge on its own. Which is currently not observed in any of the publicly available mods.

These things are too obvious for Quantomas not to realize, so I think all his takes at HMM55 are little more than pretext that he himself hardly believes. The motivation behind this is as always, 'immediately quit liking what I don't like!'.

IIRC, Ubisoft have a draconic policy considering the creators' rights to the mods they make, e.g. any mod (including third-party .dll's and .exe's tampering with Ubisoft's code) for Might & Magic X: Legacy forfeits all the distribution rights to Ubisoft, in a 'fair use' sort of way as professed by Quantomas in his EULA.

Maybe it's worth reaching out to Ubisoft and checking if a third party code injector for HoMM5, affecting the behavior of HoMM5 but lacking a more generalized use, can ever be subject to any EULAs not dictated by Ubisoft, or use distribution models not controlled by Ubisoft. It can very well turn out that merely injecting third party code is highly illegal and Ubisoft merely turned a blind eye because they weren't losing any money from a mod for a game that had long been dead in the water from a marketing prospect. If it's indeed a gray zone, tools like that cannot exist in a legal field and make use of legal devices.

By the way, if 3.2 ever comes true, Quantomas is but one step from creating a perfect heroes-like game of his own. Just throw some modern pixel art graphics into the mix, and balance / mechanics can be polished in just a couple of nights, the way he sees it. Why even bother with the outdated and closed-source platform that H5 is. Why not Tesla Minds hire a couple of artists and a $8/hr balance guy if they are a serious venture.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted June 25, 2020 02:47 PM

Let's not reignite this issue right now, I intend to comply with Quantomas EULA in a way that is sustainable and allows us to go our own way, without annoying each other. If HC members are being manipulated the issue can always be discussed with HC staff.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted June 25, 2020 03:01 PM

Velote said:
Having read through Quantomas' recent surprisingly immature posts, I now have a bad suspicion that you are falling in for manipulation, Magnomagus. I'd bet my pinky finger Quantomas' childish 'master plan' all along with his EULA and all that legalist crap, which can't have place in a hobby community, had been concocting for quite a while before it surfaced here.


Please, there is no need for personal provocation. You can issue your concerns while remaining civil, thank you.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Velote
Velote

Tavern Dweller
posted June 25, 2020 03:02 PM
Edited by Velote at 15:10, 25 Jun 2020.

I'm staying within my definition of civil, deal with it. You can ban me if you wish but I really believe in freedom of speech and don't appreciate attempts at calling that 'provocation'.


 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted June 25, 2020 03:15 PM

HC has a Code of Conduct which we assume you have read and expect to follow. This is your warning.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Velote
Velote

Tavern Dweller
posted June 25, 2020 03:36 PM

Which exact article of the code did my words go against? I would welcome a reasonable analysis.

I have sent to Ubisoft the latest beta of Quantomas' AI along with the EULA and his company's credentials, and asked them to clarify the legal status of said code injection tools for a game held within Ubisoft's property domain and to provide a judgment on said EULA's legality. Perhaps they will simply ignore my message about a 15 year old game but who knows... I'm really hoping to hear them say that meddling with the executable is either illegal and the distribution of tools like that isn't even governed by the law, or that anything created specifically for H5 automatically falls into Ubisoft's domain and how it may be distributed, is up to Ubisoft only.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted June 25, 2020 04:21 PM

From #1 and #6

Insult is a remark that undermines another person. A simple way to avoid insulting people is to discuss their actions and opinions rather than their personality.
Provocation is unfriendly behavior that causes anger or resentment from others

So, when you say "Quantomas' recent surprisingly immature posts" or "Quantomas' childish 'master plan'", it's really borderline in my judgment and I prefer to call things off early before it aggravates further. I know how fast things can escalate.

This goes to anyone else posting in the forums

Please contact me via HCM if you have further to say on this so we can get this thread back on topic.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Velote
Velote

Tavern Dweller
posted June 25, 2020 08:52 PM
Edited by Velote at 00:29, 26 Jun 2020.

Galaad, I assure you this was not of ill will. For the record, I hold a day job at an adolescent correctional facility in Eastern Europe. My duty is linked with correctional psychology and anger management of the inmates, like of that one guy who mauled to nigh-death the pizza man who had brought him the wrong pizza. Some of Quantomas' (over)reactions tripped a lot of alarms in my head; there's a curve in his tendencies that exempts me from any assumption, no matter how wishful, that his social intelligence has reached maturity. The words 'childish' and 'immature' in my first language are extremely 'court-talk' and politically correct, I've just checked with an Oxford dictionary and don't see any deriding connotations in English either. In case native speakers find this offensive, may I correct myself by saying 'tesla-minded' instead?

I could have made that post yesterday but just to check if it was just me, I let myself sleep on it. This morning, Quantomas' recent posts still seemed to me not a far cry from someone getting gravely upset over the color of Sonic the Hedgehog's arms.

Let me paraphrase this in a more nitpicky, legalist sort of way. I hate to pontificate but what I'm about to do is basically returning someone the taste of his own medicine, to quote 'his own company', 'C&D letters' and an 'EULA' that clearly breaks the Ubisoft EULA and, sans doute, a number of laws.

At the time being, any game within the domain of Ubisoft's property, no matter how old, is governed by one and the same EULA: https://legal.ubi.com/termsofuse/en-INTL.

Luckily it has a section on User-Generated Content under Article 11.

HMM55 falls under Ubisoft's definition of Derived UGC specified under Paragraph 1 of Article 11 of the EULA. It's mostly a remix of the original H5 content, bits and pieces reshuffled and cobbled back together to patch up what some people felt had badly needed balancing. Ubisoft seizes full rights to any Derived content generated by the users: 'We are the sole owner of all Intellectual Property Rights relating to Derived UGC. You hereby irrevocably assign to us, with full title guarantee, free of charge, all Intellectual Property Rights and rights of use you may have over Derived UGC, on a worldwide basis and for the period of protection of each right.'

This means that neither Magnomagus nor any other modder has any legal rights to any bit of their work on a Heroes title; hence they cannot 'grant TESLA MINDS a permanent, transferable right to include any feature from your mod and use it at any time' even in a non-commercial way in a different H5 mod — all rights belong to Ubisoft and can't be transferred to anyone, especially from someone who never held those rights. Ubisoft doesn't even openly state that a private company can create, modify or employ User-Generated Content for their games on its behalf. The entire possibility of 'including any feature from your mod' in a different mod for the same game is not explicitly permitted from Ubisoft's angle for anyone but private persons.

And if the phrase 'to include any feature from your mod and use it at any time' goes as far as meaning to export stuff outside of the H5 platform to a different game for God knows which purposes on a private company's behalf, that's only worse for that matter: the genius behind the quoted masterpiece thus would find himself stealing from Ubisoft, not as a private person but on another company's behalf; my hat is off to him.

More simply put, any mod compiled from in-game assets and technology is not subject to anyone's rights except Ubisoft's unlimited sovereignty over the matter, including the right to limit access, distribution, and usage.

Quantomas' AI tool, let us call it a 'runtime plugin' in layman's terms, most closely resembles a hacking tool described and limited under Paragraph 9 of Article 5: '...modify, decompile, disassemble, reverse engineer... any information, software, product or other element of the Content and/or Services by any means without our express prior permission'.

Yup, a lot of mods including WoG & HotA for H3 and Equilibrium for H4 run afoul of Ubisoft's own EULA. Ubi facetiously ignore it because it doesn't harm their wallets, it actually enriches them by breathing new life into otherwise dated and imperfect games. Still, tools that inject code into Ubisoft games and hook their functions fall clearly outside of the copyright field. They are technically illegal and can't be moderated through EULAs, rights, or contracts. They can only be freely distributed for non-profit causes as long as Ubisoft retains their benevolent, don't ask don't tell stance on Heroes modding.

Let us generously assume that Ubisoft will never frown at the technology behind Quantomas' AI and its purely 'for fun', non-profit uses. Then it should be classified as Independent UGC under Paragraph 3 of Article 11 of the Ubisoft EULA: 'UGC you create independently from pre-existing Ubisoft Content (“Independent UGC”). You hereby grant us, and our licensees, distributors, partners, agents, representatives a perpetual, royalty-free, non-exclusive, irrevocable, transferable (in whole or part) worldwide licence to use, copy, host, reproduce, represent, modify, display, distribute, publicly perform, publicly display and, in general, otherwise exploit, online and offline, Independent UGC (including all Intellectual Property Rights therein) in whole or in part, for any purpose.' Let me say it again: 'including all Intellectual Property Rights therein'. And yeah, since Quantomas' AI only works in junction with a game currently owned by Ubisoft, and its underpinnings are derived from said game, it is 'created independently from pre-existing Ubisoft Content' but still qualifies as a derivative governed by the EULA.

Finally, if Quantomas decides to patent some of the technology, algorithms or ideas behind his blood-earned AI, or in any other way set it onto copyright tracks, he will instantly disqualify his creations from legal circulation as User-Generated Content. Paragraph 4 of Article 11 stipulates: 'You warrant to us that your UGC... does not require that we obtain further licenses from or pay royalties or compensation to or provide any attribution to any third parties'. The killer bit if you please: 'or provide any attribution to any third parties'. If you put your name on your work in a legal way, even if no money is involved, you are still not allowed to distribute it publicly.

This is actually the N-th time I see drama like this happen since the earliest days of Elder Scrolls modding; if you look at other publishers' EULAs nearly all of them have the same stance on user-created content. It all belongs to the game's publisher as long as it makes use of the game's original assets, that is, resources, libraries, executable files, or anything derived from or built upon those. This is one of the reasons why so many enthusiastic and resourceful people avoid investing some 40,000 hours into creating something they will never have full control over. I still chuckle every time I begin recalling how that epic Middle Earth total conversion for Elder Scrolls III almost faced off against Tolkien Estate in court before taking down all their work, and how Frank Herbert Estate reduced to nothingness a vast, non-profit Dune-themed C&C3 total conversion because the authors still made claims about 'rights'. Meanwhile, less ambitious C&C3 & TES3 total conversions continue to thrive along with a huge and detailed Dune mod for Civilization IV. Reason? Those modders keep their mouths shut about 'rights' because they read the real EULA.

Right now, Quantomas can legally borrow any elements or ideas from anyone else's mods without permission, and any of his Heroes-related work can be borrowed by anyone at will. Any of the hacky bits circulating in this cauldron can be taken down at Ubisoft's request and pleasure at any time. This has been so since the debut of Ubisoft's EULA. 'Rights' in the modding scene cannot legally extend beyond a gentlemanly agreement. Someone who founded a company that managed to survive for 4 years can't be so foolish as not to have educated himself on all the matters above, probably as early as 2008. Yet he willingly spent 40,000 hours on polishing a precious sword he finally brought to a gunfight; to cope with the anger now he's desperately rallying for gun control.

This is a small scene; I asked a bunch of annoyed friends and by now have been shown a bunch of screenshots and discord logs that are very telling of Quantomas' recent instability. I really liked the 'I'm gonna land on The Guardian's top page soon' joke. For a few brief moments. Then I took to disliking it. Intensely.

I have spent a humble 8000 hours or so on modding a certain game. Assets and scripts made by me were appropriated on countless occasions. Many of the resulting remixes were not one bit close to my liking. Still I provided (and keep providing) support both in the form of advise and public access to my work, including unfinished, scrapped and outright cringey stuff. When I see someone indulge themselves in 'velvet gatekeeping' in a modding community I feel obliged to object. As Magnomagus and others have pointed out, we are all independent actors not rallied around anyone. It's great that Magnomagus and Quantomas have come to terms, even if the latter's EULA is against the law and can neither be enforced nor willingly accepted. Yet other people present in this discussion, or certain silent participants, can still be finding Quantomas' attitudes generally repulsive (outside of the context of modding and even outside of the scope of a given community). To those I shall now speak thusly:

If you are concerned about the recent precedents of 'velvet gatekeeping' and law-juggling under the counter, you can help Quantomas sober up by contacting Ubisoft at copyright-infringement@ubisoft.com Normally this e-mail address is used to claim third party copyright infringement in user-made content submissions for Ubisoft games; this time, it's Ubisoft themselves whose copyright is getting screwed with by that one gentleman. Simply tell them that someone impersonating this company breaks multiple articles of Ubisoft's EULA, make a brief overview of the situation and attach a copy of Quantomas' bogus 'EULA' to your message. Do not attach the binary files of his latest AI; your e-mails may fail to get through if you do. You can upload your samples in a .zip file to Zippyshare or DropMeFiles then quote the link in your e-mail. Don't send 'collective letters' or what it is called, the more individual messages you dispatch as 'concerned citizens' the higher the chances someone in Ubisoft will take notice. Those of you who have a Twitter account, consider alerting Ubisoft on their Twitter. You can also contact Ubisoft Russia on Twitter who supervised the development of H5 and, as a division, are more straightforward in tackling copyright issues.

On a final note... It is undeniable that Quantomas is entitled to exclusive copyright on any of the source code he has authored. In this sense, it is not different to a song or a novel. But when this source code is compiled into a binary tool that, by its principle of operation, taps into a running H5 process and alters stuff in the memory / injects third party instructions, the tool itself becomes Independent UGC under Ubisoft's EULA (at best). It can't work on its own; it changes the behavior of a product fully owned by Ubisoft and merely licensed to the end user. I make this disclaimer to spare some of you the time telling me stuff about source code authorship that I already know. Source code copyright and program product copyright work differently.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread » This thread is 46 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 20 30 40 ... 42 43 44 45 46 · «PREV / NEXT»
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.1756 seconds