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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: Useful skills and useless skills
Thread: Useful skills and useless skills [ This thread is 3 pages long: (1) 2 3 ]
Uncshabob
Uncshabob

Tavern Dweller
posted December 29, 2011 03:42 AM

Useful skills and useless skills

I'm surprised there hasn't been any thread on the discussion of the skill tree. Which skills do you think are mandatory and/or most useful? Which skills do you tend to avoid? I'm playing the Haven campaign atm and I've hit level 15 with my might hero - I like the look of intimidation, resilience and cleave... especially cleave!

So far I've been using stoneskin, inner fire, heroism and flawless assault... as far as activated abilities go that's all I really need. I think tactics is a must too.

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httassadar
httassadar


Adventuring Hero
posted December 29, 2011 10:16 AM

tactics, heal/life drain/regenerate, logistics, enlightenment, pressed attack
are must haves for main hero, other skills are situation dependent

heroic charge + cleave goes extremely well for might hero, tear or blood
meditation for magic hero

For Haven, flawless assault is less useful as the units have narrow damage spread, consider it on Cerberus/Wanizame

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AlexSpl
AlexSpl


Promising
Famous Hero
posted December 29, 2011 11:56 AM

Quote:
tactics, heal/life drain/regenerate, logistics, enlightenment, pressed attack

Usually, I pick the same skills exactly (except Heal, as I think it's a crap against Life Drain and Regenerate) If I feel my hero is strong enough (no neutrals are threat anymore), I go for Snatch just for saving MP purpose as I always think of speed first. When playing Irina's 1st scenario, I took Battle March (+2 speed during sieges). This was an excellent decision as difference in speed changed the whole picture just in one moment.

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Jac
Jac


Hired Hero
posted December 30, 2011 05:59 AM

Quote:
Quote:
tactics, heal/life drain/regenerate, logistics, enlightenment, pressed attack

Usually, I pick the same skills exactly (except Heal, as I think it's a crap against Life Drain and Regenerate) If I feel my hero is strong enough (no neutrals are threat anymore), I go for Snatch just for saving MP purpose as I always think of speed first. When playing Irina's 1st scenario, I took Battle March (+2 speed during sieges). This was an excellent decision as difference in speed changed the whole picture just in one moment.


How's the speed going to help much, when the Sanctuary doesn't have fliers to take advantage of it in a siege?

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AlexSpl
AlexSpl


Promising
Famous Hero
posted December 30, 2011 06:52 AM

When I killed almost all of his 200 Crossbowmen, he decided to revenge and started chasing my troops by his 200 Sentinels and 100 Sisters. As I hadn't enough power to wipe them off in a close combat (almost all of my troops were obtained through quests), and wanted to save as many as possible, I had to run across the battlefield to stay at the safe distance from his army, and fight with my hero and Coral Priestess with Pressing Attack.

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BlazeHun
BlazeHun


Adventuring Hero
posted December 30, 2011 07:25 AM

Quote:
tactics, heal/life drain/regenerate, logistics, enlightenment, pressed attack
are must haves for main hero, other skills are situation dependent

heroic charge + cleave goes extremely well for might hero, tear or blood
meditation for magic hero



I just have finished sanctuary campaign on normal, magic tear Irina without those skills, except for tactics from your list.
I had some losses as I could heal only with pearl priestesses, and ring of regeneraton, but it was manageable.
They are definitely NOT "must have skills".
BTW enlightenment is useless for campaign, as you lose a skill point by level 30.
You may be right speaking of competitive multiplayer, but not for campaign.
____________

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yasmiel
yasmiel


Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
posted December 30, 2011 08:06 AM

Depends on how you play the campaign. I ended most of them barely hitting level 30, which wouldn't happen without either taking enlightenment or waiting out on certain levels to cap them out (which i hate to do)
____________

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BlazeHun
BlazeHun


Adventuring Hero
posted December 30, 2011 08:19 AM

Quote:
Depends on how you play the campaign. I ended most of them barely hitting level 30, which wouldn't happen without either taking enlightenment or waiting out on certain levels to cap them out (which i hate to do)


I've never waited, just hit level 30 before Gerhardt. I didn't have enlightenment. It just gives +1 level, am I wrong?
____________

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Nocturnal
Nocturnal


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted December 31, 2011 12:40 AM

Quote:

I've never waited, just hit level 30 before Gerhardt. I didn't have enlightenment. It just gives +1 level, am I wrong?


It makes you gain %25 more experience from everything. That's why it's a must
____________
True beauty transcends such
simplistic labels such as "good" and
"evil" -Vega

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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted December 31, 2011 07:26 AM
Edited by DoubleDeck at 07:26, 31 Dec 2011.

Yeah, Enlightenment is a must, makes you level up faster which adds to creeping...

Most useful skills (early on):

- Enlightenment
- Logistics
- Tactics
- Heal
- Pressed Attack

Most useless skills:

- Duck and cover
- Toughness 1,2,3

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odium
odium


Known Hero
posted December 31, 2011 03:07 PM bonus applied by alcibiades on 10 Jan 2012.

This balancing thing is way ahead of our times (important amount of bug-fixing is still to be made and honestly I don't think it will be over before v1.4) but discussing it doesn't harm anyone.

First of all, as I stated in different occasions, I believe that the Heroes 5 skill system is vastly superior but I assume things will not change so drastically so I would try to give my constructive opinion on the current system and how can it be made better.


Paragon tree

Defender 1: tier 1 skill that has the effect of reducing might damage equivalent to 2%, 4%, 6% (+1, +2, +3 might defense) depending on the  hero's reputation (no reputation or blood reputation, level 1 tears reputation, level 2 tears reputation). I would say that more appropriate would be the 4%, 6% and 8% reduction (+2, +3, +4).

Defender 2: tier 2 skill that has the effect of reducing might damage further with 4% (+2 might defense). This is one of the weaker tier 2 skills. Another design inconsistency is the fact that its power does not depend on the reputation. I would change it to +4/5/6 defense depending on the reputation, equivalent to an extra 8%/10%/12% might damage reduction.

Defender 3: I will not repeat myself, everything I said for Defender 2 is even more suitable for this level 15 skill. I would change it to +6/7/8 defense depending on the reputation, equivalent to an extra 12%/14%/16% might damage reduction. It might seem too powerful but remember it is a tier 3 skill and competes with skills like cleave, heroic charge, intimidation. Also it affects only the might damage.

Assailant 1: tier 1 skill that has the effect of increasing the hero's might power  by +1, +2, +3 (equivalent to increasing might damage  to 2.5%, 5%, 7.5%) depending on the  hero's reputation (no reputation or tears reputation/level 1 blood reputation/level 2 blood reputation). I would say that this skill is fine with maybe the 2.5% value being too low. However, I find no way of improving the skill without getting into other issues unless we change the skill considerably: to give it direct damage alteration like it was in older installments (increase damage by 5% percent) instead of increasing the damage indirectly trough the stats of the hero. Ideally, I would have it 4%, 5%, 6% might damage increase.

Assailant 2: average to weak tier 2 skill, the same analysis holds as for Defender 2. I would change it to +2/3/4 might power, equivalent to +5%/7.5%/10% extra might damage.

Assailant 3: average to weak tier 3 skill, the same analysis holds as for Defender 3. I would change it to +3/4/5 might power, equivalent to +7.5%/10%/12.5% extra might damage.

Charismatic Leader I: competing with pretty much success at the title of the weakest tier 1 skill. It's a neutral skill which means it's not affected by reputation and has the effect of adding 2% chance to your hero's army. I would say that more appropriate would be an increase of 5% at least.

Charismatic Leader II: The same as for Charismatic Leader I. I would change it to give an additional 10% morale chance.

Charismatic Leader III: this one gives a slightly bigger increase, 3% lol. I wonder who will chose such a tier 3 skill since most tier 1 skills are better than this. I would change it to give an additional 15% morale chance.

Overall the charismatic leader skills will add up to an increase of 30% percent morale. If this turns out to be too high, change the morale effects not from these skills but from the other parts that influence it (reduce base morale of units etc).

Destiny's Chosen: analogous to Charismatic Leader for luck. I will not split the analysis into 3 since the same modifications will have to be made as for the Charismatic Leader. The tier 1 skill should give an extra 5% luck chance, the tier 2 an extra 10% and the tier 3 an extra 15%.

Snatch, Logistics, Pathfinding: I believe that Snatch, Logistics and Pathfinding go hand-in-hand and make for a nice chain of skills (lvl 1, lvl 5, lvl 15) with small modifications for Logistics. I would make Snatch the tier 1 skill since it's usually the one not chosen for main heroes and it influences the most the initial stage of the game. I would have Pathfinding being the tier 2 skill and I would make Logistics with an increase of the hero's land movement to 5 as the  tier 3 skill of the chain. An increase to 5 will equate to 25% more land movement which I believe is pretty solid. Also, I believe it to be balanced since it's definitely an important upgrade but at level 15 we deal with the latter stages of the game.

Mentoring: seems to be a weak skill considering the heroes that are recruited are automatically mentored to 5 levels below your main. It's only use would be when you recruit a lot of level 1 heroes initially and upgrade them as your main hero evolves. You save some money in this way but I doubt that this is a strategy that will not be highly contextual.  Maybe it should be changed to reduce the amount of money your extra heroes will cost when recruited from tavern. To be honest I would replace it completely with another skill.

Diplomacy: I don't have much experience with this skill but I believe it to be a skill that is at extremes: it's either too weak or it can destroy balance. I won't comment on it too much but IMO, I would remove it together with Mentoring.

Enlightment: Pretty good skill, 25% percent seems quite a lot but maybe I'm wrong. In any case I would keep it as tier 1 and if it proves to be too powerful I would reduce the percentage. Also I would make a chain for it to compensate for the removal of Diplomacy and Mentoring. I would add up a tier 2 Revelation skill. This will give a free level up. As Tier 3 skill I would have Intelligence which will add up +1 to hero's stats (except luck and morale) for every 2 levels including the current ones.

Tell me what you think with this tree.

To be continued

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Humblepie73
Humblepie73

Tavern Dweller
posted January 01, 2012 12:16 AM
Edited by Humblepie73 at 00:17, 01 Jan 2012.

I don't know about most of the skills, but i find mentoring very useful actually. Oftentimes i want level 5 secondary heroes before my main heroe hits level 10 since you can have more markets and cheaper buildings this way.

I wouldn't pick Enlightenment on the other hand if it wasn't a prerequisite for mentoring. It's only a little bit more than one level most of the time (i haven't memorized all the xp requirements for most levels off the top of my head, but i think it's around 1.2 levels mostly), which is only 2 random base attribute points.
Maybe it's more useful on specific maps if you want level 11 or so before hitting an arcane library that you don't plan to return to for some time.

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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted January 01, 2012 12:42 AM

I started playing about a weak ago, and these are my personal observations. Obviously, fairly noobish, but I'm talkative and opinionated so I can't STFU about my opinions

Now in conjunction to Odium's excellent post

Mentoring is only really efficient if used on Heroes you
previously recruited, but let's face it, most of those Heroes (except the very first secondary you recruit in your average campaign mission) will already possess enough experience initially to unlock the Realm Skills you need in order to have an excellent supply hero. It's only really useful in early Campaign missions, and probably in Single Player as well. (although I haven't played Single Player Maps yet, I would say Mentoring is handy to keep your garisson heroes strong). I have given this skill to ever Campaign Hero, but I intend to respecialize them an use the skill point elsewhere.

Defender, Assailant, Charismatic Leader and Destiny's Chosen all appear to be quite weak imo, especially the latter two which won't improve through Reputation. I guess it's only important when you are in desperate need of one of those skills, but honestly, there are SO MANY great abilities out there, so why waste one, if not SEVERAL ability points on those dreary skills.

Scouting doesn't seem too interesting, especially for a main. Scouting 3 DOES seem interesting (reveals the location of all loose resources and arties on the overview map), but why would you want to waste three slots when there are much better skills to pick from?

Plunder and Sabotage Mine are pretty dreary, I mean, it's not like you are actually crippling your opponents economy? Only usefull in the Midgame imo.

Duck and cover: lol. At least it's not completely useless for a tears hero, but covers are generated randomly on the battle map and what if you are facing a legion of Marksmen without the necessary covers? (not to mention you would likely be ripped to shreds either way around)

Warlord's Command: I use its prequitite, rush, VERY often, and that one ALWAYS achieves the same effect as Warlord's Command (acting immediately after casting it)... so why bother?

Toughness: Bonus seems VERY weak, but at least it'll improve if the Hero is of Tears Alignment. Again, why bother with better skills to pick from? It also inadverantly makes conserving units more difficult, with Regeneration, Heal and Life Drain having to restore 2% more HPs to ressurrect the same amount of creatures.

Stormwinds: Only useful in Sieges, and even then only a Sanctuary Hero would benefit from this skill (due to them being the ONLY faction but no sorts of fliers). In all other battles, blocking shooters isn't difficult, even sieges. Stronghold just bashes through anything, (Walls are taken down laughably easy) Haven can use teleport Guardianned Glories next to the shooters or Dive onto them with their Griffins, Inferno can Entrall them or gate next to them and Necropolis has Liches/Vamps and Dark affinity (Puppet Master)

Magic Power (all schools): It only works for one particular school (and you are unlikely to use spells of just one school). Besides, Magic heroes don't need this, they already have Magic Power in abundance, and Might heroes won't be using too many spells (other then the essential ones) anyways.

Erosion: Pathetic. If you want structural damage, you are much better off with the Level 3 Earthquake spell, and even then it's only interesting if you Hero has Blood Reputation. (and even THEN affinity with Siege Weapons is a much more desirable option imo) This skill is also completely useless for Stronghold, they have the Cyclops and a Wall-breaking special building.

Icebreaker: Only circumstancially useful in theory, and pretty much useless as long as Lucky Strikes aren't functionning properly. Oh, and it dispells the Frozen effect, meaning the enemy creatures can move again. Not very desirable.

Mass Agony: Single Agony can deal quite a large amount of damage, making it very useful to use against the enemy Power Stacks you don't want to attack in melee. It's an excellent spell to cast when you don't have any particular role for your (magic) hero during the turn. Mass Agony however deals very poor damage, in spite of all enemy stacks being affected, and I definity would skip it.

Arcane Ward/Arcane Exaltation: Just about as weak as Defender/Assailent, etc. I think only Heretics benefit from Arcane Ward, as they have VERY poor Magic defence, but even then it's nowhere near a priority.

Blindness: Most Factions already have feasable alternatives to Blindness, so why actually bother? Sanctuary has Serenity which lasts a whole lot longer. Succubi can Entrall, which does the exact same thing. Necro cannot get it, but instead have access to Puppet Master. It is only "useful" for Stronghold and Haven, but Petrification is actually much more desirable to have and lasts longer. So... no.

My two cents. I'm still learning the game and I don't know the formulae behind each skill by heart, so these might be way off... but I can imagine every other skill being useful, so

Happy 2012 people
____________
Coincidence? I think not!!!!

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AlexSpl
AlexSpl


Promising
Famous Hero
posted January 01, 2012 01:32 AM

Quote:
- Enlightenment
- Logistics
- Tactics
- Heal
- Pressed Attack

Why Heal if you can pick Regenerate, or Drain Life. I prefer the latter, if my stacks are strong enough, or, at least, one of them.

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Miru
Miru


Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
posted January 01, 2012 08:11 AM

From page 3, Skill Impact.
____________
Hath not the potter power over
the clay, of the same lump to
make one vessel unto honor,
and another unto dishonor?

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Nocturnal
Nocturnal


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted January 03, 2012 06:17 PM

Quote:
Quote:
- Enlightenment
- Logistics
- Tactics
- Heal
- Pressed Attack

Why Heal if you can pick Regenerate, or Drain Life. I prefer the latter, if my stacks are strong enough, or, at least, one of them.


Regeneration is not even an option in a real match. It is too slow, its healing capability is too minor. You lose units between turns. It just compensates for future losses, but doesn't give back what was lost.
____________
True beauty transcends such
simplistic labels such as "good" and
"evil" -Vega

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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted January 03, 2012 06:53 PM

Regeneration however is VERY good for creeping, especially when playing Stronghold, which lacks Healing Power. (does Inferno get it? I don't remember.)

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OmegaDestroyer
OmegaDestroyer

Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
posted January 03, 2012 06:56 PM

The catapult line is very disappointing.  The poisoned supplies aspect of it is laughable.  
____________
I am the kaiser
I bring forth the raze

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BlazeHun
BlazeHun


Adventuring Hero
posted January 05, 2012 09:35 AM

Quote:

Magic Power (all schools): It only works for one particular school (and you are unlikely to use spells of just one school). Besides, Magic heroes don't need this, they already have Magic Power in abundance, and Might heroes won't be using too many spells (other then the essential ones) anyways.



It's not that bad.
For a level 20 hero with 20 magic power, the 3 air magic power skills give ~+20% dam to lightning and creatures (pearl priestesses!) too.
For a level 30 hero with 30 magic power it's +5% though.
Magic power skills are quite good for mid level heroes with reputation level 2.
____________

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Naki
Naki


Known Hero
posted January 06, 2012 05:34 PM

... and pretty much useless as long as Lucky Strikes aren't functionning properly.

What?? Lucky strikes work in 1.2, which was released on Dec 20th last year.

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