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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features This Popular Thread is 447 pages long: 1 60 120 180 240 300 360 ... 394 395 396 397 398 ... 420 447 · «PREV / NEXT»
Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted February 03, 2020 06:37 PM

Phoenix4ever said:
It's not really about how rare they are, when you find them you find them, especially if you already know where to find them, if you know what I mean.
I suppose you could also call Cloak of the Undead King or Advanced Town Portal "rare", but they are still extremely powerful...


You're right about Warlock's Lab being very powerfull map objective.

I think what avatar meant to say was that the Lab's rmg value was increased, so it will have way stronger guards than it had before. I'm sure about they will not hesitate to increase the rmg value if it turns out to be still too easy to take. And currently, it's likely that there will be about 0-1 Warlock labs in a map, so it's quite rare, and not part of every game.

Just because it has similarities with Trading post doesn't automaticially make it op, thou.
Arena isn't OP, even something like Mercernary camp and School of War exists.
Warehouse of Gold isn't OP, even there's something like Waterwheel.
Both the Warehouse and the Arena are always guarded, but Mercenary camp and Waterwheel are possibly only lightly protected, and you even might take those for free.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted February 03, 2020 06:47 PM

How exactly is it guarded then?, by level 6 creatures?
Even then when guards are disposed everyone can use it as they wish.
I never said those other objects were OP, except maybe Library of Enlightenment which gives +8 to stats, but it's still requires you to be level 10, (or have Diplomacy) so it's not even that bad, unless there are 30 of them on the map.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted February 03, 2020 07:36 PM

phoenix4ever said:
How exactly is it guarded then?, by level 6 creatures?
Even then when guards are disposed everyone can use it as they wish.
I never said those other objects were OP, except maybe Library of Enlightenment which gives +8 to stats, but it's still requires you to be level 10, (or have Diplomacy) so it's not even that bad, unless there are 30 of them on the map.


Well, it has a rmg value of 10,000 so it's probably guarded just like Dragon's Utopia and (normal) lvl 5 spell scroll. So it's somewhat heavily guarded, but sure nothing like lvl 30 hero in prison, which would mean rmg value 30,000. (which is a max for single object)

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Pawel1995
Pawel1995

Tavern Dweller
posted February 03, 2020 07:54 PM

Ziemian said:
Hi, could you please explain your reasoning behind making the changes to churchyards?
[...]
it's only making weak towns such as stronghold/citadel even weaker - shooters with speed 8 and above can still do churchyards easily, you just have to sacrifice a token or two, while towns without them have to bleed army in order to do it.


I actually agree after I played a few games online.
Is this just an experiment? Castle and Rampart are one of the most picked Towns in multiplayer and this change just makes it even easier for their LVL 2/3 shooting creatues to get some easy values from churchyards, in comparision to most other towns.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted February 04, 2020 07:08 AM

Hourglass said:
which would mean rmg value 30,000. (which is a max for single object)


I'm pretty sure the value of a Frozen Cliff is just slightly bellow 80.000, in fact 70.000 is what I'm giving to topes, so that both are created with regularity in super treasure areas and have appropriated guards.
____________
The only reason i argue with you people is because i don't want the bullsnow you all spout to be so easily spread to the impressionable without another sane voice challenging you.  -  Fred79

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Zaio-Baio
Zaio-Baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 05, 2020 03:18 PM

Guys, can we play hota on android tablet ?

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avatar
avatar


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted February 05, 2020 08:07 PM

Yes. Using ExaGear Strategiest.
____________

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Zaio-Baio
Zaio-Baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 05, 2020 08:25 PM

avatar said:
Yes. Using ExaGear Strategiest.

Does it run well ? Also can you explain how to do it ?

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Sulik
Sulik

Tavern Dweller
posted February 07, 2020 03:11 PM
Edited by Sulik at 15:14, 07 Feb 2020.

Thank you for the fantastic work. There are some few less unreasonable secondary skills to pick from. However, I think, it is universal that some other skills, such as eagle eye or learning, are useless in most contexts. Is it possible to fix them? Or to have a beta best with tentative changes for these skills.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted February 09, 2020 10:57 AM

Sulik said:
Thank you for the fantastic work. There are some few less unreasonable secondary skills to pick from. However, I think, it is universal that some other skills, such as eagle eye or learning, are useless in most contexts. Is it possible to fix them? Or to have a beta best with tentative changes for these skills.


They do know those skills are extremely bad, and have said they will do something for them. It's just that those 2 skills are not even close to being viable in any context, so I suspect they will probably receive a "resistance treatment", meaning the original skills will likely get banned, and new skills with somewhat similiar effects will take place. If this end up happening, I belive the old skills can still be brought back via Template editor, so old custom maps requiring you to have Eagle eye can still be played in Hota enviroment. That's ofc my own vision, Hota team might think differently.

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Jaynetics
Jaynetics

Tavern Dweller
posted February 09, 2020 09:00 PM

Learning could be fixed like Mysticism or Estates, i.e. by greatly increasing the numbers until the skill becomes viable. That shouldn't break any map. Except perhaps custom maps where you need to reach a certain level and the timeframe/path for reaching that level has been finely balanced. Not sure if there are such maps.

Eagle Eye and Healing seem harder to fix without breaking stuff.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted February 10, 2020 05:44 PM

Jaynetics said:
Learning could be fixed like Mysticism or Estates, i.e. by greatly increasing the numbers until the skill becomes viable. That shouldn't break any map. Except perhaps custom maps where you need to reach a certain level and the timeframe/path for reaching that level has been finely balanced. Not sure if there are such maps.

Eagle Eye and Healing seem harder to fix without breaking stuff.


Might turn out to be not that easy, as finding a healty balance may turn out to be very tricky, if not even impossible. I think the main problem is how much experience is needed for leveling up - the amount needed heavily grows after each level.

Let me give an example:

Let's assume a world where Expert Learning gives you 200% more experience (triple exp)

Now, in my ears, that sounds extremely good, if not compeletely overpowered. However, it turns out that it roughly means 6 levels more than hero with no Learning, and the gap isn't even that big on the early levels. Oh, and this math is only accurate if you would have Expert Learning right from the start, which is not the case in normal gameplay. Normally, you would need to spend 3 secondary skill points in order to reach the max value, and while doing that, you would only partly develop your hero. Also, in order to gain as much value out of Learning, one would need to pick it and max it as soon as possible. The later the game goes on, the weaker Learning would get. While six levels sounds amazing, in reality heroes would not be so strong. And finally, you would have spend one of your seconadry skill slots, which would hurt especially in the beginning, when you're trying to make your hero better.

So that would be the case with "normal" heroes. On the other hand thou, there are heroes that are currently very strong, such Crag, Tazar, Kyrre, etc. We would need very careful with them to not make them even more crazy, as they would totally be interrested about buffed Learning, especially if it would give more exp than it does in my example.

And about "breaking stuff:" Changing the secondary skill entirely isn't a problem at all, if the old version would still accesiable in Template editor. Custom maps would still be beatable, and there would be a wider range of playable secondary skills.

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dan1ell1ma
dan1ell1ma

Tavern Dweller
posted February 10, 2020 08:13 PM

The first post still display the 1.5.4. version.

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dan1ell1ma
dan1ell1ma

Tavern Dweller
posted February 10, 2020 08:35 PM

I like of group support skills, my proposal is:

Learning can give some experience to new heroes until a certain level, like scholar.

Healing can use mass healing at expert level. Maybe resurrect some of dead ones at expert level.

Eagle eye can facilitate the research cost when hero is in town.

I suggest two new skills:

One to give resources, other to bonus the creature growth.

Cya.

Hourglass said:
Jaynetics said:
Learning could be fixed like Mysticism or Estates, i.e. by greatly increasing the numbers until the skill becomes viable. That shouldn't break any map. Except perhaps custom maps where you need to reach a certain level and the timeframe/path for reaching that level has been finely balanced. Not sure if there are such maps.

Eagle Eye and Healing seem harder to fix without breaking stuff.


Might turn out to be not that easy, as finding a healty balance may turn out to be very tricky, if not even impossible. I think the main problem is how much experience is needed for leveling up - the amount needed heavily grows after each level.

Let me give an example:

Let's assume a world where Expert Learning gives you 200% more experience (triple exp)

Now, in my ears, that sounds extremely good, if not compeletely overpowered. However, it turns out that it roughly means 6 levels more than hero with no Learning, and the gap isn't even that big on the early levels. Oh, and this math is only accurate if you would have Expert Learning right from the start, which is not the case in normal gameplay. Normally, you would need to spend 3 secondary skill points in order to reach the max value, and while doing that, you would only partly develop your hero. Also, in order to gain as much value out of Learning, one would need to pick it and max it as soon as possible. The later the game goes on, the weaker Learning would get. While six levels sounds amazing, in reality heroes would not be so strong. And finally, you would have spend one of your seconadry skill slots, which would hurt especially in the beginning, when you're trying to make your hero better.

So that would be the case with "normal" heroes. On the other hand thou, there are heroes that are currently very strong, such Crag, Tazar, Kyrre, etc. We would need very careful with them to not make them even more crazy, as they would totally be interrested about buffed Learning, especially if it would give more exp than it does in my example.

And about "breaking stuff:" Changing the secondary skill entirely isn't a problem at all, if the old version would still accesiable in Template editor. Custom maps would still be beatable, and there would be a wider range of playable secondary skills.


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Sulik
Sulik

Tavern Dweller
posted February 11, 2020 10:16 PM

As Hota team want to stay true to 3DO's philosophy, I think it might be beneficial to discuss the intentions and design logics of these skills. After that it may be easier to determine what does not work, and what can be done to preserve the best of 3DO.

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atawy
atawy

Tavern Dweller
posted February 12, 2020 02:44 PM

Dont do dwarves. Who wants the mutant race in hota. And also dont do hobbits.

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MathGuyHere
MathGuyHere

Tavern Dweller
Not enough time for this...
posted February 12, 2020 09:00 PM

Sulik said:
As Hota team want to stay true to 3DO's philosophy, I think it might be beneficial to discuss the intentions and design logics of these skills. After that it may be easier to determine what does not work, and what can be done to preserve the best of 3DO.

First Aid: We got ballistics for catapult and artillery for ballista. First aid is in game because they wanted skill that affects healing tent. Simple as that.
Learning: Take a look into biographies of heroes with starting learning. They often have some extraordinary ability to comprehend stuff (Merist and Loynis) or use unusual tricks (Darkstorn). I think learing was supposed to give player more tricks to pack up his sleeve. May idea is it could give additional points to primary skills during level-up.
Eagle Eye: Was supposed to give an opportunity to auire rare spells. And that's the problem. Spells are not THAT rare. You can build another magic guild or do the research. Also games are just not long enough to include enough between-players battles. In PvP it is not uncommon that the first contact is the last. In my opinion eagle eye should be re-focused on searching for spells out of battle. Extra spells from shrines, maybe?

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Sulik
Sulik

Tavern Dweller
posted February 13, 2020 01:17 AM

MathGuyHere said:

First Aid: We got ballistics for catapult and artillery for ballista. First aid is in game because they wanted skill that affects healing tent. Simple as that.
Learning: Take a look into biographies of heroes with starting learning. They often have some extraordinary ability to comprehend stuff (Merist and Loynis) or use unusual tricks (Darkstorn). I think learing was supposed to give player more tricks to pack up his sleeve. May idea is it could give additional points to primary skills during level-up.
Eagle Eye: Was supposed to give an opportunity to auire rare spells. And that's the problem. Spells are not THAT rare. You can build another magic guild or do the research. Also games are just not long enough to include enough between-players battles. In PvP it is not uncommon that the first contact is the last. In my opinion eagle eye should be re-focused on searching for spells out of battle. Extra spells from shrines, maybe?


I think you have some good points here. However, a more concrete purpose of, say First Aid(FA), can be helpful. For example, I suspect that FA is meant to be used during battle. The use should be to heal and with a turn to do so. If these ideas are to be kept, passive features like regeneration or anti-poison can not be considered. Healing and cleansing can be. Once we are good with the mechanism, tweaking the magnitude ( multiple target?) and scale of the skill ( how much healing?  Resurrection?) should be easy.
____________

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foerno
foerno


Adventuring Hero
posted February 13, 2020 06:43 PM
Edited by foerno at 18:44, 13 Feb 2020.

MathGuyHere said:
May idea is it could give additional points to primary skills during level-up.


yes! that sounds great.

basic learning: gives hero 50% chance to gain +1 primary skill on level-up
advanced: hero gains +1 additional primary skill on level-up
export: hero gains +2 additional primary skills on level-up

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted February 13, 2020 06:45 PM

Guys, they got like 9000001 suggestions on these skills over the years, I'm pretty sure they don't more

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