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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: ERM help and discussion
Thread: ERM help and discussion [ This thread is 241 pages long: (1) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 ]
Odvin
Odvin


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 19, 2003 04:39 PM
Edited by Ste at 07:58, 18 Dec 2007.

ERM help and discussion

I just thought that some discussion of ERM should be not only in the official forum, but in HC too. So, this thread is for everything connected with ERM scripting. Not only for those who write scripts, I mean. Pehaps it could be interesting (and it's also allows me to get the fresh news about ERM scripting, as I seldom visit the offcial forum... )
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Vlaad
Vlaad


Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
posted March 20, 2003 01:37 AM

Personally, I am dying to get the script which enables Dragon Flies to get back after they strike ( and cast weakness ), just like Harpy Hags do.
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Odvin
Odvin


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 20, 2003 10:11 AM

Hmm... I'll try to make it when I'll have some free time; right now I'm busy playing Homm3 via modem.
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Vlaad
Vlaad


Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
posted March 20, 2003 12:57 PM

But there already IS such a script. I cannot find it, though.
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ByteBandit
ByteBandit


Promising
Famous Hero
Soul Merchant
posted March 21, 2003 04:24 AM
Edited By: ByteBandit on 21 Mar 2003

Quote:
Personally, I am dying to get the script which enables Dragon Flies to get back after they strike ( and cast weakness ), just like Harpy Hags do.

I have that script Vlaad. Not only do the dragonflies do all you ask, they also cast beserk too. And If you want it, I beleive I have it in the map Book of the Dead, Just extract it from the timed events, and turn it into a script.

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Odvin
Odvin


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 21, 2003 06:59 PM

DRAGONFLIES casting BERSERK? That's WAY too powerful. Dragonflies aren't that bad even in plain SoD, but with that script ... Imagine:

You build dragonflies day4 or so, get a hero, recruit 7 dragonflies, split them into 7 stacks, and go weaken the neutrals. Attack some neutral monsters, 1 dragonfly stays quiet in order to prevent the hero from the loss, 6 others go berserk the neutrals. The battle won't be won, of course, but that could be very deadly on early stages.

IMHO, it's not the dragonflies who need improvements.
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ByteBandit
ByteBandit


Promising
Famous Hero
Soul Merchant
posted March 22, 2003 01:37 AM

Yeah, that may be true they are too powerful, but with HOMM for every action, there is a reaction. Cast slow on the critters or find a way to get them first and you should have no problem. I did'nt write the script, but I use it and love it. Whether I have them or somebody else has them it's a very neat script.
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IRh
IRh


Famous Hero
Lizard
posted April 15, 2003 01:53 PM

ERM 8(

I don't like ERM. Because I'm not a dummy, but programmer. And so, I think that LOW-LEVEL LANGUAGES CANNOT be used today, and it is not only my opinion. And what is ERM?
Maybe I don't have right... I was so pleased when I saw WoG and heard about scripts (why didn't NWC made it?), but when I saw a "!?OB63/13:!!HE-1:M99/5"... Don't say me it is easy to write and read. And don't say me that it is MORE HARDER to realise a language like this:
"ON ENTER TO SkullPile: GIVE TO this_hero 99 RoyalGriffins."
It would be simpler than making a special editor. Yes, I used it to write some simple scripts... Not a work for people who respect themselves.
Very pity. My favorite dreams were failed.
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Vlaad
Vlaad


Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
posted April 15, 2003 04:54 PM

I must disagree and once again thank the WoG team for the effort they've been putting into their project.

I'm not sure I understood your post entirely ( maybe Engilsh is as complicated as WoG, heh heh ). ERM is both simple and hard for you?

Look, I draw comics but I managed to understand ERM in one afternoon. I made several XL maps and wrote several original scripts. They were simple but long... not unique but very useful. Give it another try.
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Gangrail
Gangrail


Promising
Famous Hero
Dead Man
posted April 15, 2003 06:23 PM

If I am not mistaken ERM is kinda in the form of C++ or Pascal.  I notice some similarities in it.  I as of now can't make a script but have seen some things that brought back memories of being in Computer School 10 years ago
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IRh
IRh


Famous Hero
Lizard
posted April 17, 2003 12:23 PM

WoG Rules ERM 8[

No. I don't want to say that WoG is ----. If it were so, I wouldn't talk about it. But! Realizing a SO NEEDED (Do you sleep, NWC?) and so rich functionality, ERM is so unfriendly. Writing scripts on it is not that hard, but dull.
[Engish is hard, yeah. What I'm doing there?]
I tried to say that for HoMM3.5 team being a good programmers it wasn't much harder to make a more readable language - I know what I say.
I understand I'm nothing more than user but... ERM makes me crazy.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Well, berserk-casting Dragonflies? In all cases, changing creature chars is usable in single-player campains, but in MP you should also worry about the balance of powers, that is the real problem.

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Gangrail
Gangrail


Promising
Famous Hero
Dead Man
posted April 17, 2003 01:18 PM

You also have to worry about a script not working in online play at all.  That is the problem the Team ran into with version 3.57 we had a few scripts that crashed online but was perfect in single or hotseat play.  IF you make any new scripts please check and make sure it works for both or give a warning that it hasn't been tested online play. Took us a while to figure out it was a few scripts crashing the game.
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Fnord
Fnord


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 17, 2003 06:20 PM bonus applied.
Edited By: Fnord on 17 Apr 2003

Quote:
I don't like ERM. Because I'm not a dummy, but programmer. And so, I think that LOW-LEVEL LANGUAGES CANNOT be used today, and it is not only my opinion. And what is ERM?
Maybe I don't have right... I was so pleased when I saw WoG and heard about scripts (why didn't NWC made it?), but when I saw a "!?OB63/13:!!HE-1:M99/5"... Don't say me it is easy to write and read. And don't say me that it is MORE HARDER to realise a language like this:
"ON ENTER TO SkullPile: GIVE TO this_hero 99 RoyalGriffins."
It would be simpler than making a special editor. Yes, I used it to write some simple scripts... Not a work for people who respect themselves.
Very pity. My favorite dreams were failed.


Sure, it would be nice to have a high-level language, but I'm also sure it WOULD be considerably harder to create. You would have to alias everything to names for a start (and that would use more memory too), rather than using the tables that are already part of the game. Your lines of code are also longer so ERM scripts would be longer too and require more memory for that as well. I imagine that it's also easier to parse a language that's a little more consistent in format (e.g., !!, !?, !#, !$ for starting codes) and the fewer words and symbols it has to search for and look up in tables, the faster it will run. So while I'm no expert, I can see many reasons why it probably wouldn't be easy or wouldn't work as well.

Remember also that Slava doesn't have any access to source code, which makes everything harder too. And I imagine there are a lot of other issues with creating a scripting language.  

However, if you're knowledgable enough to know for certain that it wouldn't be harder, you must also be able to create such a language yourself, right? So by all means, do so! :-) If you only think it would be easier, contact Slava (zvs@mail.ru) and ask him yourself.

As for the "special editor", it's NOT necessary except to save the code in the right format. This is basically just removing the linefeeds I think. The editor is very good but isn't needed at all if you put the code right into timed events in the game. And for external scripts, you can use any text editor and just resave it in ERM format in the editor after. Before we had the editor, there was a txt2erm type program that was a small DOS program that just did the conversion of the text file. But the editor is easier to use anyway.


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IRh
IRh


Famous Hero
Lizard
posted April 18, 2003 12:03 PM

Re: ERM 8[

Memory? +10K is not a thing. Speed? It's important if long loops are used (for all heroes)... Need statistics. Parsing? A little KnowHow makes it possible. To do? I had an idea... For example, a compiler to ERM. Real, but need some time and (main!) moral help. And there is some untrivial things. For example, something like that:
   if (Styg.Power * 2 > Styg.Knowledge + 1)
       hero(Dracon + i).Attack += 2;
Compiling this would be headashe... May take a week . Or some simpler variant.

"If I am not mistaken ERM is kinda in the form of C++ or Pascal." The worst thing it is not!
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Odvin
Odvin


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 27, 2003 05:21 AM

Quote:
"If I am not mistaken ERM is kinda in the form of C++ or Pascal." The worst thing it is not!

Yes, of course it is not. But do we really need it? As you say, making an ERM compiler would take a lot of time... And much more headache then writing and understanding a dozen scripts written in current ERM style. I understood ERM quite quickly... Of course, after that I had to learn some advanced ERM features, like all those vars, functions and comparsions, but anyway... Though not looking like C++ or Pascal, ERm is definetely not a "low-level" language. Imho, it's completely enough to suit all the scriptwriter's needs.
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Gangrail
Gangrail


Promising
Famous Hero
Dead Man
posted April 27, 2003 01:04 PM

Well I guess I am the only one that sees a few similarities in Erm with c++ and pascal  I know they are not alike but just see a few things here and there.  Oh well as my wife loves to say to each their own  It is still fun to play around with
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IRh
IRh


Famous Hero
Lizard
posted April 27, 2003 04:24 PM

"And much more headache then writing and understanding a
dozen scripts written in current ERM style."
What? Using is using, and programming is programming, it cannot be compared. WRITING TRANSLATOR for ERM shouldn't be much harder than for <pleasant-readable-HL-language>. It's a pity that ERM author (being good programmer) didn't have experience in this area and knowledge of basic programming technology. [Idea is... Arith expressions (parsed by tokens) are converted to stack machine lang then to ERM, static (or dynamic) stack in v1-v500... Structural blocks as functions, IF as !!FU&1; FOR ... too. Real. ]

ERM is high-level? Sorry, do you know what it means? It's mnemonics is worse than the Assembler one. Where are structure, identifiers and expressions?
Where is !READABILITY!?
Imagine you have a HLL. Using it would be less boring. So, more scripts you would be able to write. Their functionality could be made wider. Less time you would spend. More good WoG maps would be maken! More people would be able to do it. You would be able to learn it easier, not looking in tables for each instruction. Not need?...

BULLSQUID! Why do talented and creative people have lack of knowledge? Why are brilliant and needed ideas realized so?

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IRh
IRh


Famous Hero
Lizard
posted April 27, 2003 04:57 PM

By the way

Anyone knows, have H4 or H5 any scripting system?
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Arstahd
Arstahd


Adventuring Hero
posted April 28, 2003 12:25 AM

You know what I love about ERM?  ... it works!

Yeah it's not the easiest thing to understand, but it provides an enormous amount of functionality where once there was none.

If you don't like it, fine. If you want to write a translator, great. Just don't knock someone who has given us a wonderful tool that allows us to reliably customize this great game.

It's really easy sit back and criticize someone's reasoning for the way ERM was programmed, it's another to actually go out and spend your free time to code a complex scripting language from the ground up and integrate it with a game without the help of any of it's source code.

Regardless of the reasons, what's done is done, ERM is what it is, love it or leave it.

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IRh
IRh


Famous Hero
Lizard
posted April 28, 2003 04:22 AM

You're true, yes. Btw, do you know how many people shout "Windows mustdie" while using it?
I didn't ever say ALL is ****. WOG rules, scripts rule, ERM?
It only made me angry.
HoMM3 doesn't have scripting system - NWC's fault. It is NEEDED.
"Do it". Shall I? I don't know.
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