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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 02, 2015 10:46 PM |
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Edited by artu at 22:48, 02 Jan 2015.
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He did a whole thread about the traumatic beating he got, that's not being too vocal about things, so not only I dont fail about the example, I'm also correct about conservatism effecting your judgement. Sexuality is one of the facts of life, we all talk about it every once in a while, so will gay people. As long as it doesnt turn into an obsession, that's okay. And in cases it turns into an obsesssion, it's usually the oppression what causes that anyway.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 02, 2015 11:06 PM |
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I don't know what is to be conservative, instead I value humans for their accomplishments or human traits. I consider all minorities whining for special rights because their sexuality or religion not worth to talk about, that's all.
I must also recall that in my job, half of artists I admire are homosexuals (is a common phenomenon in arts) and this detail doesn't befog at all my awe for them. What they give back is what interests me.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 02, 2015 11:13 PM |
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Example, you say we shouldn't see gay people kiss on the movie screen, that's conservative and if gay people reacted to that, they certainly wouldn't be "whining for special rights." To portrait the situation so is conservatism. I used to feel weird too, when I saw it, but you get used to it and instead of acting so reactionary to their sexuality, you make the little effort to empathize.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted January 02, 2015 11:59 PM |
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@artu
Maybe, maybe not. But the disproportionate (to actual homosexual demographics) featuring of increasingly graphic homosexual encounters in television shows is beginning to feel like pandering to me. "Oh, look how progressive we are: we're showing a homosexual relationship!". Thing is, since everyone is doing it nowadays, it just feels like a trite cliche at this point.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 03, 2015 12:07 AM |
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That's something else. A forced political correctness (a group of friends or a team with one gay, one black, one Asian guy in so many shows etc) feels also artificial to me. As I said, people from countries like France and US (if we put aside the Bible Belt states) are in a different situation sociologically, since the progression you had especially in the last few decades is enormous, it may even feel a little too fast to you.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 03, 2015 06:37 AM |
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You turn around with complicate words, but is not something else. Showing several races together on the screen, at a moment when the world dangerously collapses into communitarian entities, is an educational thing. Showing homosexual acts, which look disgusting to the overwhelming majority of straight people -sorry folks, that's the truth- is outlining the human instinct. We know they are, do we also need to see how they do it?
Am I surprised Putin does not want the children of Russia to see two men involved in a sexual act? As a father I would have same moral attitude. But, as a civilian, I would defend any social rights of any minority, because discrimination based on race or sexual orientation -things that can not be controlled or modified by the individual- leads to communitarian collapse as well.
And this is where the gay lobby does not make any effort to understand, where their constant push-over will have the opposite effect: most straight people will fight for their universal rights, but also most straight people do not ask to be re-educated under the new world values, be forced to watch and accept visual representations hurting their inner nature.
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DagothGares
Responsible
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No gods or kings
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posted January 03, 2015 06:47 AM |
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Disgust of the naked body is learned behavior, dude.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 03, 2015 06:55 AM |
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Sal, can you imagine how many people would be disgusted to see a black man kiss a white girl in the cinema, back in the 1930's? It's just a matter of getting used to it.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 03, 2015 07:07 AM |
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Salamandre said:
Am I surprised Putin does not want the children of Russia to see two men involved in a sexual act? As a father I would have same moral attitude.
Why? Is there anything wrong with homosexuality? If not, what's wrong with children being exposed to it in the same way that they're exposed to heterosexuality?
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Eccentric Opinion
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 03, 2015 07:21 AM |
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artu said:
Sal, can you imagine how many people would be disgusted to see a black man kiss a white girl in the cinema, back in the 1930's? It's just a matter of getting used to it.
I'm not sure that it's OK that you're supposed to get used to something like that in a forceful manner, which the over the top exposure to what you don't like certainly is. At this point the majority of the people in the Western world simply don't care about gays but get irritated when the gay rights get shoved down their throats on every occasion, with or without necessity. From the outside it doesn't look like "Be tolerant to gays" but more like "You must be a pathetic excuse for a human being if you do not support gay rights".
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 03, 2015 07:24 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 07:26, 03 Jan 2015.
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artu said:
Okay, let me ask it this way, we have openly gay artists or fashion designers but for example, we dont have openly gay politicians, it would be unimaginable for them to win. Do you have openly gay politicians and if yes, how far can they expect to advance in their career?
Can you have a mayor that is living with his partner as if they were married?
Unfortunately I don't know cases where openly gay politicians came to the tops. It's still wild to us, people prefer not to demonstrate sexual preferences different from traditional. It doesn't mean these people practice homosexual or perverted relationships at home though.
mvassilev said:
Salamandre said:
Am I surprised Putin does not want the children of Russia to see two men involved in a sexual act? As a father I would have same moral attitude.
Why? Is there anything wrong with homosexuality? If not, what's wrong with children being exposed to it in the same way that they're exposed to heterosexuality?
Because Russian morale is more or less built on Christianity even if we are not believers. For example, I often say "thanks god you are okay" but I consider myself agnostic. It's just incrusted in culture. We make fun of our patriarchs who ride limos and have armwatch for $100000, remembering someone's quote about "if you want to get rich, devise your own religion", but the cultural preferences are usually coming from Orthodox Christianity.
That is why showing homosexual love on mass media is considered wild to us, if it's not a part of the movie. The majority of us would rather not see any love at all on TV news/ads than to see homosexuality in action. Russia might need dozens of years to come through that, but it also comes from politics where Putin uses the church as one of the main supporters of the current vertical of power.
Yes, Orthodox Church is a supporter of power and that's how it always been in Russian history, unlike Catholic Church where Pope decided which king is guilty and which is not. There is a lot to say, but I guess, in another topic.
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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted January 03, 2015 07:37 AM |
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I detect a large amount of fear of the gay being accepted or something, irrationally so. I take public transportation every day. I don't see that much television, but every week I watch movies and I am not ignorant of popular culture. I honestly don't see dudes or gals tongue each other ever, not in films, not on the cooking or reality shows (the only kind of television that runs in my country) and I never see any occasions where controversially some dude kissed some other dude on television or whatever.
I have never experienced it "being shoved down my throat." Like, it seems to me you'd only experience it more than once/ year if you're actively searching gay porn. Not to make accusations here, but maybe the experience of the gay being "forced on you" is an irrational reaction?
Honestly, I don't care which genitals you lick. But the sexually suggestive language where people claim it's forced upon them and it's so icky really irks me and makes me question your basic points.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 03, 2015 07:41 AM |
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There is not only gay porn, but neverending news articles about this or that person claiming he/she is not straight. There is too much attention drawn to this, and this motivates other gay people to find out everyone's opinion about their orientation, while many just have other things to do instead of morally supporting the 'brave' homosexuals.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted January 03, 2015 08:09 AM |
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Doesn't violence happen against minorites in Russia? I know it happens too often in civilised places. I understand these individuals being scared or looking for support in Russia or anywhere where their immediate family may reject them. Violence happens often enough when it's just white, straight, male russians meeting other white straight male russians in a controlled environment.
Maybe it annoys you when you see articles about it, but is the news really full of interesting thought-provoking articles all the time?
I have many Russian friends and I've been myself to Russia and I've met plenty of hospitable, chivalrous and helpful people there (as long as I spoke Russian). I have heard this opinion expressed often that people do not care for homosexuals and I've heard otherwise friendly people claim there is something "lacking in a man who doesn't love women" and obviously it isn't the same as outright hating them, but it is less friendliness than the average foreigner seems to get (even when the foreigner is as charming as I am). I can imagine these people would be sensitive to the coldness or the distance they may experience from other people or maybe they're afraid of discrimination or violence.
All in all, I'm saying it may be a reaction to the general attitude of the Russian population that there are insecure gay persons in your country.
I don't know, you don't have to kiss a dude and you don't even have to see dudes kissing.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 03, 2015 08:14 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 08:16, 03 Jan 2015.
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Depends on what you call violence. No one hurts gay people if reveals that they are gay, except the deep villages where the population is drunk 100% of time and have 7 years of school education. But you are not the person to point us on that since these cases exist in the rest of the world in a no less amount.
Quote:
you don't even have to see dudes kissing
I'd rather see no one kissing publicly, this sounds better for me.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted January 03, 2015 08:34 AM |
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Yeah, but when I see a couple in love and they're younger than 25, then I don't care that much, I guess? Whether they're straight or not. When I was a bit younger, I'm sure I was one of those disgusting clingy people at the mall as well, hence I don't judge.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 03, 2015 08:41 AM |
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Edited by artu at 08:49, 03 Jan 2015.
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Well, it was me who said Christianity can result in prejudice, too but putting it all on religion is also an oversimplification. The thing is, when a society is ready to leave some archaic norms behind, although, it can slow it down in an annoying way, religion never has full power to stop it. Think about sex out of wedlock in Russia or heavy drinking (which is actually not healthy but that's another topic), these are also considered wrong by religion but majority of people have no fundamental problem with them, most people are more than willing to modify their faith according to contemporary times, actually they do it without even knowing it, unless politics exploiting religion starts to scratch some scars. Of course, that will cause the other side to act more reactionary also, with BSM dressed parades and so on... I never understand that part btw, why do gay people feel obligated to turn every protest they prepare into some Dionysos carnaval is beyond me.
@DG
I don't know about your country but here, when mainstream shows like Sex and The City, Will and Grace etc are shown, men kissing each other is banned even on cable.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted January 03, 2015 08:46 AM |
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Didn't know. American shows are not very popular in my country anymore. It's all reruns or it's all aimed at 30-something women. While I must concede men kissing probably happens on our television. I think no one watches or cares enough. Politicians and other Belgian cultural figures talk about films and shows they watch and it's never like will and grace or sex and the city or any other sitcom. It's either classic films, drama shows (like breaking bad) or Belgian quiz or talk shows.
Obviously, censorship is bad, but it's honestly not that tragic that Sex and the City is banned in your country. 
EDIT: I always see it as young gay people using the time and place to make more friends. I however don't believe in that helping gay acceptance. Acceptance of gay people would happen more, if some of your coworkers were married and gay or some of your friends were gay and not cannibals. Opposing gay marriage in this way is basically a move against allowing gay people to integrate in more traditional institutions.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 03, 2015 08:48 AM |
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Well, I don't lose sleep over it either.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 03, 2015 08:50 AM |
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Orzie said:
Because Russian morale is more or less built on Christianity even if we are not believers. For example, I often say "thanks god you are okay" but I consider myself agnostic. It's just incrusted in culture. We make fun of our patriarchs who ride limos and have armwatch for $100000, remembering someone's quote about "if you want to get rich, devise your own religion", but the cultural preferences are usually coming from Orthodox Christianity.
My question was more about the second sentence I quoted from Salamandre: "As a father I would have same moral attitude". Of course there are anthropological and historical explanations of why homosexuality is disliked in Russia, but those are merely explanations, not justifications, and justifications is what I'm asking about.
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Eccentric Opinion
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This thread is pages long: 
