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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 02, 2015 07:06 PM |
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 02, 2015 07:06 PM |
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Edited by artu at 19:10, 02 Jan 2015.
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Orzie said:
When something is considered by someone a cliche, it doesn't yet mean it doesn't have many precedents in human history. I can name a lot of cases where soft-charactered people were straight, but it's unclear if it will stay the same after a long-time brainwash. Oh, sorry, a long-time tolerance lesson.
Yes, but in this case we have many unbiased observations contradicting your biased observations, so it's simpler to explain your observations as subjective perceptions caused by your bias. A lesson in Occham's Razor 
@Sal
Yes, it was just a quick example, out of free association.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 02, 2015 07:09 PM |
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I don't see where my observations are biased since I don't have anything against gays if they behave just the same as straight people in the cases excluding sexual preferences. But I'll leave that to you since HC gay lobby seems to be the biggest I've ever seen, if you get what I mean.
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 02, 2015 07:14 PM |
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Edited by artu at 19:14, 02 Jan 2015.
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Dude, you say gay people are weaker, label the ones who defend their rights as "tolerance fanboys" and then you claim you have no bias on the subject, that's rich! Anybody would have arrived at the same conclusion, saying they have rights just like the rest of us, isn't exactly being a fanboy or whatever else you're hinting at.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 02, 2015 07:19 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 19:21, 02 Jan 2015.
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Quote:
Dude, you say gay people are weaker
Proof please. I'm waiting.
Quote:
label the ones who defend their rights as "tolerance fanboys"
I just don't love gay propaganda and its effect on the society, but I don't have anything against gays. If you are gay, it's okay, but gay propaganda comes farther than that, and increases the number of gay people by influencing on latent gays which are much more numerous. This is bad for the demography, which Europe lacks already in comparison with the Eastern nations. Just a practical view.
Many people live their entire lives not knowing they could have different sexual experience, and I don't see any problem with that.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 02, 2015 07:28 PM |
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Orzie said:
Other than that, it comes from education and psychological traits formed from the very childhood, like soft boys educated by lone mothers or a couple mother-grandmother for example, when they also often are bashed by more aggressive contemporaries due to the soft/weak character and tend to establish friendship with girls rather than boys. Whatever the ultimate tolerance fanboys think.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 02, 2015 07:31 PM |
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Proof?
Orzie said:
like soft boys educated by lone mothers or a couple mother-grandmother for example, when they also often are bashed by more aggressive contemporaries due to the soft/weak character and tend to establish friendship with girls rather than boys.
This is practically saying they turn to girls because they are weaker and that's why they become gays. I don't know where you observed this but you can bet your last coin it's anything but unbiased.
Also, being gay is okay as long as they hide it doesn't make any sense to me, why should they hide it? The fashion in which they prepare their demonstrations can be over the top sometimes, I'll give you that but other than that it's not like they are kidnapping children and training them to be gay. And with today's technology, gay people can get pregnant, so demographics is irrelevant. Both straight or gay people don't have many children in Europe which has many cultural and economical reasons, it's irrelevant to the issue.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 02, 2015 07:38 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 19:39, 02 Jan 2015.
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Quote:
This is practically saying they turn to girls because they are weaker and that's why they become gays.
They don't turn to girls. Soft character can also result in latent homosexuality, and interpreting my words like "I call gays weak" sounds like it's not me who is biased in this dialogue, counting the fact that I don't hide my home country. You hear what you want to hear from my words, but not that I wanted to say to you.
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Also, being gay is okay as long as they hide it doesn't make any sense to me, why should they hide it?
They shouldn't hide it. But it's wrong to have constant brainwash on TV telling about this and that person claiming he/she's openly gay without a counterbalance. I'd rather have no brainwash at all, or 50/50 for each case.
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And with today's technology, gay people can get pregnant, so demographics is irrelevant.
The question is how often do they really need this feature.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 02, 2015 07:39 PM |
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artu, you are doing devil advocate now. Is not about hiding, but open propaganda. Let me give you an example: with all the yada yada we hear now in France about how normal is to be gay, I have students who ask me to talk in private, then avoid they are gay then ask me if I have something against. This is provocation and I won't tolerate, it is not my business to have a discussion with anyone about his sexual choices, this does not interest me at all and I feel very annoyed when straight or gays talk to me about. Because from that moment, my neutrality as teacher is over and they will profit from my confusion.
In the (possible) case of professional fail, I will be accused of discrimination.
And I can say that gays have a very louder tone when it comes to inform others about their sexual preferences then wait for reaction.
We just don't care.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 02, 2015 07:42 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 19:48, 02 Jan 2015.
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Quote:
And I can say that gays have a very louder tone when it comes to inform others about their sexual preferences then wait for reaction.
Bingo. Unfortunately, this comes from the a priori discriminated state of this social group, gay parades also count. Same for vegetarians who scream out loud that they don't eat meat, well, a thousand of other examples.
The trouble in the 'tolerance fanboys' is that they implant their ideas in very rapid tempos, aggressively and not caring about the results of this very accelerated process, which are not as clear as we would like them to be.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 02, 2015 07:51 PM |
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Orzie, as you can see I am not the only one who directly quoted you on that, when you asked for proof. You directly say softer character leads to being gay, you don't say it's the only reason, yes, but I never said you said it's the only reason.
@Sal,
May I remind you that we don't all live in France and countries like Turkey and Russia still has a lot to do about the issue? I'm guessing Russia is still more progressive compared to here but gender discrimination is nowhere over in general, so acting like everything is perfect and they are just spoiled is misguided.
I mean it had been informed to us in this very thread that in Russia, they are blacklisted, they cant get loans, cant rent houses, shouldn't they protest such things and isn't emphasizing they shouldn't be ashamed for who they are, is part of that protest?
Sometimes, on such issues, you act like the whole world is metropolitan Paris.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 02, 2015 07:57 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 19:58, 02 Jan 2015.
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Quote:
Orzie, as you can see I am not the only one who directly quoted you on that, when you asked for proof.
I thought I already explained the issue in my previous post. There may be even more people quoting me the same words, but they don't serve as a proof of what you incriminate to me. I never said all gays are weak and have personalities weaker that straight people in 100% of cases.
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I mean it had been informed to us in this very thread that in Russia, they are blacklisted, they cant get loans, cant rent houses, shouldn't they protest such things and isn't emphasizing they shouldn't be ashamed for who they are, is part of that protest?
Not sure if I understand you correctly, but gays in Russia can get loans and rent houses without any problems. Personal traits of a man or woman mean a real lot to us, perhaps even more than to Western people.
There are some major troubles with marriage, it's true, but the precedents also happened.
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 02, 2015 08:07 PM |
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And once again, I never claimd that you did, its the causality you presume that is problematic, not a 100 percent generalization.
I cant find where it is right now, maybe it was another thread but somebody (not you) explained that in practicality, there were blacklists of gay people and banks didnt give them loans and house owners didnt rent to them, in Russia. Anyway, maybe it was an exceptional situation or an exaggerated news, the thing is, can you in clear conscience, claim there is no discrimination to gays whatsoever, in your country, that everything is swell?
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 02, 2015 08:11 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 20:12, 02 Jan 2015.
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The discrimination for sure exists, from the Western point of view. Our homosexual people usually don't consider them discriminated when it doesn't come to marital aspects. Long-haired men sometimes are discriminated even more (with the job assignment for example), but fortunately there was some progress with that.
The blacklists most probably are a local phenomenon which was exaggerated in the mass media. Just like our TV propaganda saying that in Europe children are taught perversion while it's obvious that the shown TV programme is just about sexual education for European kids.
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artu
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posted January 02, 2015 08:25 PM |
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Okay, let me ask it this way, we have openly gay artists or fashion designers but for example, we dont have openly gay politicians, it would be unimaginable for them to win. Do you have openly gay politicians and if yes, how far can they expect to advance in their career?
Can you have a mayor that is living with his partner as if they were married?
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted January 02, 2015 09:26 PM |
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artu said:
Can you have a mayor that is living with his partner as if they were married?
In recent municipal elections in one of major Pomerania cities a declared gay became a mayor. This created quite a lot of media coverage because this situation surprised many people - gay mayor, in conservative Poland?! I think that he won beccause although his sexuality was known, he also did a good job as a MP and he told once that he is gay, people acknowledged it and did not repeat it anymore. This is a trait that I like in all gays I know - they do not constantly reiterate that they are gay and they need some special treatment and this is nice.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
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posted January 02, 2015 10:06 PM |
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artu, you compare Turkey to Russia, while your country only problem is the religion, and not any religion, but the worst of all.
Don't fall in xerox syndrome, browse a bit, there are russian forums about Heroes III, where also people discuss world issues, and you will not find any gay bashing, black list or whatever, go and see.
People are creative, they discuss about what it matters to our intellectual development, not about shallow things as who you bang. If you take only Heroes III game in consideration, a "backward" country as Russia has contributed at 99% with ideas, the whole wog is russian, all the tools we use for modding are russians. There is a lot to learn from this people but we can also ignore, label them as savages then continue our pointless daily talk about anything in HC.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 02, 2015 10:29 PM |
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Religion can also be a problem and a cause of prejudice in Christian countries, Sal. There are many Christian members here, who are AGAINST homosexuality. And if I considered Orzie or Russia a savage, I wouldnt debate with him, would I? If you remember the past debates about this, my arguments were in the opposite direction, I think the reason Russia is criticized more about this is, people expect more from them as opposed to Sudan or Iran. Now, he himself says, they dont have an equality in the Western sense and that could mean anything, so I ask him a simple question that would make me understand the situation more. The gay politics in Russia are notorious for a reason I presume, if it wasnt, there wouldnt be fake propaganda manipulating European education videos, would there? Yes, Xerox is sometimes unnecesserily vocal about his sex life, but many other gay members here are not, how about Gnomes? It's not like the world is a perfect place for gays except that they are too vocal about it, you are quite conservative yourself about this issue, it effects your judgement.
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Salamandre
Admirable
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Wog refugee
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posted January 02, 2015 10:38 PM |
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Gnomes did a WHOLE thread about his homosexuality, so for an example, you fail again 
And let's not forget that in US a dozen of states constitutions consider homosexuality as sin and being homo there is a no go, for any job.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 02, 2015 10:44 PM |
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Fabamandre said:
And let's not forget that in US a dozen of states constitutions consider homosexuality as sin and being homo there is a no go, for any job.
goddamn islam!
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This thread is pages long: 
