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Conduit
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 16, 2015 06:20 AM |
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Oh its just so darn sad that Half of the Fixes shown in the Patch Notes still aren't Fixed! i.e. Emerald Dragon Acid Breath, Angels still can't revive dead stacks, AI still wanders aimlessly, shooters still defend 75% of the time, MP still gets loads of out of synch, oh the list goes on and on. Ubi/limbic never ceases to surprise me! Honestly what is happening??
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 16, 2015 08:55 AM |
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verriker said:
PROJ said:
It's more complicated than that.
AI is super, super difficult to do well if the game has any sort of depth to it. It's kind of a paradox, actually. If you want the AI to be better, it pays to have a simpler, more easily solve-able game. The more depth the game has, the more difficult it is to write an AI that can heuristically determine what to do. On top of this, it's true that game companies rarely hire the best and brightest, and they are working on tight time constraints. It is probably more prudent for a game company to write scripted asymmetric scenarios and allow the AI to cheat than actually attempt to spend resources creating a "good" AI.
bottom line: if you want a challenge, play against humans. If you can write a really good AI, your game is probably lacking depth.
very true as well, and certainly another of the many reasons the more convoluted H4, H6 and H7 have failed to achieve good AI lol
Not quite so. With H4 the case is a little more complex. While the AI has some shortcomings, for example in certain siege situations, the main problem for the AI is handling the difficulty system and the fact that you can set "mobile guards". The first means, making the game more difficult for humans makes it more difficult for the AI as well (instead of making it easier), while mobile guards is something the AI seemingly has no concept of. That means, high difficulty and mobile guards will see AI players more often than not simply killed by the MOBILE guards (another thing that was cool: mobile mixed guard stacks).
Which means simply, that the AI in H4 is INCOMPLETE (the first release that should have waited 6 months to finish).
Keep in mind that H4 difficulty system is adorable: you get more guards for the same experience! (If a stack starts with 60 Bandits for 540 XP, advanced Diff makes that 90 Bandits - for the same 540 XP!) It would have been a big winner if they could have programmed so that Humans and AI would play on different diffs, getting different stack strengths.
In any case - there are more or less 2 different AIs in the game, tactical and adventure. Question: Is the adventure map "game" in H5, H6 and H7 so much different from that of H3? Me, I wouldn't think so. The rules are more or less the same, except that in H3 there were goodies like Dimension Door making things somewhat more complex than the toned down movement spells of the successors.
Battling is a different beast, though. I don't think it is possible to ever program a satisfactory battle AI. Best AI is in H1 - it's the hardest game to win anyway, because it's short and bloody, the rules are very limited and the AI is ruthless. You get no time, and there are not many tricks in the bag helping you to overcome the sheer weight of material disadvantage combined with AI's all-seeing eyes. After that ... I suppose H3 was the big hit because one thing that was excellent with the game was PACE. Also, you were offered enough ways to create tricks to beat a superior AI.
So battle AI will always be somewhat lame provided there is a decent number of options (active abilities to use and tactical options like wait and so on).
By the way, Sorcerer King is building a game around the concept of "inept, cheating AI".
Lastly, AoW3 is a killer game also because the programmers knew, if the AI is forced into a battle it will lose it anyway, otherwise the human players wouldn't start it. Consequently, the AI is not out to win, but to hurt (it wins, if it can hurt you more than you the AI) - it goes for kills, instead of trying to act tactically sound or some nonsense. That's obviously the right thing to do with Heroes as well...
The problem with heroes is, that beating the guards is too easy, tactically spoken, because the forces are crap. You need mixed forces throughout (which is the case in AoW3 as well), you need small armies: shooters must be accompanied by solid body guards, while slow melee must be supported by shooters - also something H4 understood, by the way: Elves and Tigers together are so much more akward to fight than either one or the other.
What I want to say is: AI starts with basic game design.
Meaning, you can have all kinds of fluff in a game, question is, can the AI handle it - and what will help the AI?
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Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
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posted October 16, 2015 10:22 AM |
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Sempai said:
But thus far @Marble didn't even touch the game yet,
I don't know what you're talking about 
Sempai said:
So @Marble aka @Dies_Irae was one of the most prominent supporters
Still is, overall speaking.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted October 16, 2015 10:25 AM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 10:27, 16 Oct 2015.
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But have you touched the CD?
Also liked the spider.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted October 16, 2015 10:28 AM |
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sobaka770 said:
no end-of-turn warnings (if you misclick once the game autosaves anyway and I hate being constantly asked whether I want to move as I usually don't).
I consider this implementation to be questionable to be honest. In previous Heroes titles, you could put your Heroes into "sleep" mode, which would ignore them for the end of turn check.
Quote:
This is probably the first Heroes game where shooters are not OP.
Are we playing the same game? I still feel like I am devastating enemies mainly with Ranged units, while suffering preciously few losses myself.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted October 16, 2015 10:35 AM |
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Maurice said:
sobaka770 said:
no end-of-turn warnings (if you misclick once the game autosaves anyway and I hate being constantly asked whether I want to move as I usually don't).
I consider this implementation to be questionable to be honest. In previous Heroes titles, you could put your Heroes into "sleep" mode, which would ignore them for the end of turn check.
Were you...?  I've never known that there is such a possibility. To be honest, I miss these warnings. There were way too many occasions while playing Heroes VII when I skipped a turn because I've left the city screen too quickly or because I forgot there's a hero I needed to move.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 16, 2015 10:35 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
Words
Well I learned something today. I guess this deserves a nut point, maybe?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 16, 2015 10:50 AM |
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Always a pleasure to be of service. 
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 16, 2015 01:11 PM |
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That's an interesting patch... I had a friend staying over and we played hotseat. First two games worked fine, 3rd, 4th and 5th ended before they started as now game always crashes when I try to start custom game. We can load old one, but not start a new one
Did you change the AI for real? I saw absolutely no difference there. Enemy never left their own AoC on adventure map and in battles targeting priority seems to be always on the dummy single stacks.
Also how is necro supposed to be balanced? First game I played it and during third month I got 15-20k skeletons and the number is rising rapidly... For 2nd hero I have thousands of ghosts... and for 3rd hero I got troops from my towns... All three heroes are levels 20-30. Any of those armies can beat all opponents alone pretty much. As far as I can see only implosion can counter skeleton/banshee growth and for that you can recruit barbarian or luck hero to get 50% magic resistance or protection... Aside the first week or two I had stronger army for the whole game compared to my friend who was playing dungeon. As far as I can see you would have to rush the necro to have even small chance to beat it on bigger maps and even then they will give at least even fight. It might not be as bad on easier difficulties maybe, but on heroic I have hard time seeing necro ever lose a game in bigger maps
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted October 16, 2015 01:32 PM |
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TD said:
Did you change the AI for real? I saw absolutely no difference there. Enemy never left their own AoC on adventure map and in battles targeting priority seems to be always on the dummy single stacks.
I recall I reported this on three different forums during beta, so it's still not fixed eh? 
"EXPERT AI".
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 16, 2015 01:42 PM |
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted October 16, 2015 03:45 PM |
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The game production these days, H7 included:
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted October 16, 2015 03:55 PM |
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PandaTar said:
Image...
 
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 16, 2015 04:23 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 16:24, 16 Oct 2015.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted October 16, 2015 04:37 PM |
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Stevie said:
Meanwhile, word on the street's that TotalBiscuit got cancer after playing Heroes 7.
Wow, I didn't know that video games can mutate healthy body cells so easily.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted October 16, 2015 04:57 PM |
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I'll only say - source please.
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted October 16, 2015 05:00 PM |
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EnergyZ said:
I'll only say - source please.
http://www.torredemarfil.es/foro/show_post.php?p=78922
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted October 16, 2015 05:02 PM |
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Stevie said:
Meanwhile, word on the street's that TotalBiscuit got cancer after playing Heroes 7.
this is just tasteless and way out of line.
man, snow cancer
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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keldaur
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 16, 2015 05:13 PM |
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Stevie said:
Meanwhile, word on the street's that TotalBiscuit got cancer after playing Heroes 7.
Not funny.
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted October 16, 2015 05:25 PM |
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Edited by Antalyan at 17:27, 16 Oct 2015.
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I have not seen better and more funny summary of game developing process than this short comics story yet
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
