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Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: ~ Heroes 7 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 7 - Discussion thread ~ This MEGA THREAD is 1610 pages long: 1 200 400 600 800 1000 1200 ... 1398 1399 1400 1401 1402 ... 1600 1610 · «PREV / NEXT»
Articun
Articun


Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
posted May 03, 2016 01:20 PM

I can't believe were this ended up...

All i said was that i missed the "Let them go"/"Cower in fear" option wich was integral in all previous games. Because yeah, heroes is a battling game and you must do battles, but no one can say that after a while he/she is not bored to do all battles. And when you reach your late game, fighting for those +2 ore and +5 wood that are guarded by 20 pixies and 80 dryads while you have 5 Titans, is plain "WHY???". And before you ask why to do that, let's just say i am a completionist, i like to empty my maps of neutral armies.
What i am saying, is that it is not bad to have neutral armies cower in fear before a might army. The drawback is that you will get lesser expirience from this but you wouldn;t get that much anyway. And as stated before, if you really are so bloodthirsty or expirience hungry, you can just as easily fight them. The choice is there.

I only said that i wanted this "Cower in fear" to not be a diplomacy perk only but a thing of its own as well. Which some of you got to say that i am lazy, that i insinuated that heroes is not a game about battling or that diplomacy as a skill sucks, which is not true. You saw what you wanted to see.

Truth is and objectively speaking, that not all of us gamers will go in and revel at all battles, neither do all of us have the super PC that will have minimun loading times. The game also takes some seconds to decide what each unit will do and with the new wait option for the AI, it takes about 2 -3 seconds for the units to just decide they want to wait. And that is on my pc with an SSD and a very good graphic card. In my laptop things are much worse. So, sorry if i want to skip some battles, especially the really easy ones.

And about quick combat. No, i don;t think that quick combat makes you lazy. Once you have played again and again and again, you just want to get rid of some battles easily. The current game as it is now with its current AI, unless intentional is entirely stupid. It doesn;t use abilities or magic, becuase your hero will not loose mana. It only moves your units forward until they get to the enemy as evident by all the glass canons you loose each time. And yeah Chris, you do loose a lot, which in contrast with previous games, is unforgivable. I do not expect the pc to play as me but i expect to play with some decency. But this is under the AI issue and how it needs to globaly be made better. Also, i do believe that a PC could play better than me and me watching would give me ideas.

Concerning diplomacy, i only said that as it is now, i would like a bit of a greater percentage (about 15% more tops) and i said that the units are very highly priced. The idea of diplomacy is not that 100 fire elementals will come with you from month 1. But that an army that would be defeated by you in an easy manner, will want to join you for a price. This is not bad. As for what you said JJ, if the diplomacy is highly tied to the power of the hero army, you cannot go and collect the units with another scout hero. And neither should an empty hero be able to collect those creatures. In general, in my mind Diplomacy should work to replace stacks you currently have. For example you'll be forced to leave back your 50 Priests for those 5 dragons per se. Also, as the dwellings are now, you cannot have a dwelling per unit but you have dwellings that give you 3 or 4 units. Which is not bad but depends on taste.

Maybe the skill of diplomacy should be renamed as Politics or Regency as as it is now it is much more than just diplomacy. But again, for all our arguments, objective discussion, accusation, cussing, no one listens. No one cares and nothing will change.

So, i am not all in favor of heroes VII, but neither do i make GOD of previous titles. Just to be clear.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted May 03, 2016 02:32 PM

Articun said:
In general, in my mind Diplomacy should work to replace stacks you currently have. For example you'll be forced to leave back your 50 Priests for those 5 dragons per se.


Gameplay wise that might be a balancing consideration, but honestly, I can't unite that with the spirit of the skill: you meet neutral units and sway them with your sweet talking to either not fight, or even join your forces. Which explanation can you find that part of your army then says, "ok, we'll step out. Good luck on your quest, we're off!".
____________
The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted May 03, 2016 02:39 PM

What you actually say is, that the AI is so bad, that you cannot trust it with ANY auto battle, which means, it's plain inept, so THAT is your problem.

Generally, the option whether a stack wants to flee from you, should more or less be determined by whether one side will lose the battle without being able to inflict ANY casualties, simply because there is no reason why the AI should give up a fight IF it can inflict casualties.

In the end, though, a skill must give you something for real, not an option to sneak past shortcomings of the game.

Then there is the "joining" problem.

There is no reason whatsoever why either the whole stack should join or none. You could just have A FEW joiners (percentages depending on skill level, if it's not an ability) - and we had this in Heroes 4: for one thing, Diplomacy is a subskill of the Nobility skill:

Quote:
Basic: Basic Diplomacy gives the hero the ability to convince 30% of greatly outnumbered hostile creatures to desert for a price. The hero can sway no more than 120 experience points of creatures, plus 10% per level of the hero. Also, the cost of surrendering is 80% of normal.

Advanced: Advanced Diplomacy gives the hero the ability to convince 40% of greatly outnumbered hostile creatures to desert for a price. The hero can convince no more than 240 experience points of creatures, plus 10% per level of the hero. Also, the cost of surrendering is 70% of normal.

Expert: Expert Diplomacy gives the hero the ability to convince 50% of greatly outnumbered hostile creatures to desert for a price. The hero can convince no more than 360 experience points of creatures, plus 10% per level of the hero. Also, the cost of surrenduring is 60% of normal.

Master: Master Diplomacy gives the hero the ability to convince 60% of greatly outnumbered hostile creatures to desert for a price. The hero can sway no more than 480 experience points of creatures, plus 10% per level of the hero. Also, the cost of surrendering is 55% of normal.

Grandmaster: Grandmaster Diplomacy gives the hero the ability to convince 70% of greatly outnumbered hostile creatures to desert for a price. The hero can sway no more than 600 experience points of creatures, plus 10% per level of the hero. Also, the cost of surrendering is 50% of normal.


Also, the Order Magic skill came with the subskill Charm (which was more or less the start of the racial skill):

Quote:
Basic: A hero with Basic Charm can convert 15% of greatly outnumbered hostile creatures to his side. The hero can convert no more than 60 experience points of creatures, plus 10% per level of the hero. The cost of surrendering is 90% of normal.

Advanced: Advanced Charm allows the hero to convert 20% of greatly outnumbered hostile creatures to his side. The hero can convert no more than 120 experience points of creatures, plus 10% per level of the hero. The cost of surrendering is 80% of normal.

Expert: Expert Charm allows the hero to convert 25% of greatly outnumbered hostile creatures to his side. The hero can convert no more than 180 experience points of creatures, plus 10% per level of the hero. The cost of surrendering is 75% of normal.

Master: Master Charm allows the hero to convert 30% of greatly outnumbered hostile creatures to his side. The hero can convert no more than 240 experience points of creatures, plus 10% per level of the hero. The cost of surrendering is 70% of normal.

Grandmaster: Grandmaster Charm allows the hero to convert 35% of greatly outnumbered hostile creatures to his side. The hero can convert no more than 300 experience points of creatures, plus 10% per level of the hero. The cost of surrendering is 65% of normal.


Ah, but wait - it's HoMM 4, it can't be good, it's not Heroes.

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Articun
Articun


Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
posted May 03, 2016 02:54 PM
Edited by Articun at 15:01, 03 May 2016.

I was also gonna quote Heroes IV. In an idea world, when you get to replace a stack in your army, it would become a caravan in which you get to set the new destination, so story wise, you do not fire them but relocate them. Heroes IV did that because it allowed units to move independetly in the adventure map.

Story wise as well, when you sway a neutral army it is becuase they are impressed by the specific hero and want to follow him, not another amateur of the same guild, so it does make sense that they are tied to the specific hero.

Still, yeah, my main problem is that i can predict what the AI does and why i loose what i loose. And the AI has no learning aspect. In an ideal world, data would be uploaded to the cloud storage of the game with how many players play and the AI would learn and repeat those patterns, But this is a dream for a future dynamic heroes and really, i wouldn't like it that much because them the game would have been really hard to play.

Anyway, Nobility instead of diplomacy sounds better as a skill name as it is in Heroes VII.

EDIT1: In heroes IV though charm was very specific in its description and usage. Such specific rules for the skill is not bad because it sets a small window as to how and when it happens. But in heroes VII i doubt they have the knowledge to implement them

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted May 03, 2016 03:13 PM

Articun said:
In an ideal world, data would be uploaded to the cloud storage of the game with how many players play and the AI would learn and repeat those patterns, But this is a dream for a future dynamic heroes and really, i wouldn't like it that much because them the game would have been really hard to play.

There would still be a difficulty setting though. I assume it would require some tweaking as the AI evolved but still.

On a very basic level what I would want of an AI would be specific objectives and exceptions for 1) Adventure map movement and control 2) Skill building and 3) Combat. There is always something lacking but it is all the more noticeable when the AI fails to take into account no-brainer scenarios. I'm not talking H7 AI in specific.
____________
Being human is a roller coaster ride of emotions during rainstorms and sunshine, sprinkled with moments when you can almost reach the stars.

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Moritzbradtke
Moritzbradtke


Known Hero
posted May 03, 2016 03:17 PM
Edited by Moritzbradtke at 15:20, 03 May 2016.

I also hope quick combat will be better in the future, this not only important for the PC but also for AI to have less casulties AS all AI fights are quick combats in the end. Another way to improve the Situation about diplomacy could be to let it work similiar to necromacy by letting join only a fixed max amount while the left overs will flee so it would be useful again in early and mid game while it woudnt be too strong in endgame on very large maps where it might be possible to collect lots of gold? ATM it it useless for small and medium maps for sure, what is a pity

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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted May 03, 2016 03:23 PM

Maybe it is that fighting some weak stacks in end game benefits with extra experience. But what was the point if there was a level cap in the game to begin with?

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted May 03, 2016 03:32 PM

Well the game is still in beta testing, no rush.
____________
Being human is a roller coaster ride of emotions during rainstorms and sunshine, sprinkled with moments when you can almost reach the stars.

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Articun
Articun


Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
posted May 03, 2016 03:35 PM

Well, we've gone from alpha (vanilla) to beta (expansion)... Not much we can do after than. Probably they will abandon the game because the fans were... uncooperative and not too helpful with rhe game progression and creation, THUS no future publisher should work with fans to create a game for them.

Like Jhon Snow, fans know nothing... And game developing is dark and full of terrors....

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Articun
Articun


Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
posted May 03, 2016 05:16 PM

New article in the blog about RMG

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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted May 03, 2016 06:11 PM

I was about to bring H4 to the discussion as well, but JJ beat me.

IMO, H4 paved the way for a certain type of skills: Income (Estates, Mining), Neuatral creature recruiting (Diplomacy, Charming), Necromancy, Summoning. All of this skills had one thing in common: they were hero level based, meaning in the earlier stages of the game they have a small impact (instead of being game breaking, as Diplomacy in H2,H3 and H7 are, Necromancy too). As the game progresses, your hero reaches higher levels and all of this skills become stronger.

What's more, this scale of power works not unlike the classic passive bonuses such as Offense/Armorer. Where the later have a bigger impact the longer the games goes on (your army gets bigger), this hero-based skills do also become more impactful as the months pass by. This helps to close the gap with all the passive skill/abilities. In a normal game, the longer the game goes on, the bigger the armies get, the higher level your hero achieves. Some skills are related to your army, others to your hero level. It's not rocket science, is it?

The same could be said about Spell Power & Knowledge: make spells more SP dependant than Skill mastery, make mana a bit more sparse - and suddenly Atttack/Defense primary skills giving permanent bonuses won't be seen so bad.

It's a bit of a shame, really. Recent Heroes games could have had more solid mechanics if they had looked at previous installments and took after the best from each one. Instead they went with something similar to the more popular one (Heroes III), with little to no thought on how they will affect the game. Unless innovation is being brought to the table, Devs should look at the different options available in previous games and consolidate the pluses of every one of them - when possible.
But alas, it seems that's too much to ask for
____________

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frostymuaddib
frostymuaddib


Supreme Hero
By the power of Vivendi!
posted May 03, 2016 07:39 PM

A little off-topic, but this RMG article just reminded me how unfinished and premature release of the H7 was. I almost forgot that there was no RMG in-game, lol.

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yogi
yogi


Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
posted May 03, 2016 07:45 PM

frostymuaddib said:
this RMG article just reminded me how unfinished and premature release of the H7 was.


same here.

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Moritzbradtke
Moritzbradtke


Known Hero
posted May 03, 2016 07:46 PM

just a quick question, does anyone know what the difficulty Levels u can choose when u start a map are actually doing?

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Kimarous
Kimarous


Supreme Hero
posted May 03, 2016 08:11 PM

In-game RMG? I'm officially pumped! "Proper" RMGs like this seem very rare these days.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted May 03, 2016 08:11 PM

Player - AI resources, neutral strength, neutral growth.. If it also boosts the AI it doesn't say but I doubt it. All else can be tweaked separately in custom difficulty.
____________
Being human is a roller coaster ride of emotions during rainstorms and sunshine, sprinkled with moments when you can almost reach the stars.

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Aionb
Aionb


Known Hero
posted May 03, 2016 08:27 PM

Besides the diplomacy debate, after such a big announcement I expected a little more rumble in the bogs, so to speak

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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Age of erwins is over
posted May 03, 2016 08:28 PM

You need a defibrillator, not a news article, to bring h7 back to life

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Jonny Come Sometime
posted May 03, 2016 08:32 PM

now cracks a noble Erwin lol
____________

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Pawek_13
Pawek_13


Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
posted May 03, 2016 08:35 PM

LizardWarrior said:
You need a defibrillator, not a news article, to bring h7 back to life

You need an Archangel...

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