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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted March 02, 2016 07:18 PM |
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Brukernavn said:
Ashan puts heavy restrictions on lineups. You can't just mix "races" willy nilly based on well known fantasy creatures (either from ancient mythology or D&D). Instead they invent different varieties of orcs, elves, dwarves etc. to suit their needs. That eventually leads to the similar lineups and abilities we see in H7. If you think of it as play-dough; in HoMM you had a lot of pre-made figures that you could tweak and mix as you pleased. That led to unique combinations of creatures and abilities. In Ashan you have 9 different colored doughs, and you have to make your own figures for each color. Human creativity is limited, so you will inevitably end up with similar looking figures in different colors. For H6 and H7 they even used the exact same figures, only re-painted.
I agree with every word of your post, very well put 
Just to branch off from this a bit. The heavy race themed factions was always a huge downer for me because the mythology was the what got me hooked from the get go, and what kept me playing and interested to the point where I'm playing and suffering through the new iterations of the series.
The Mythological creatures was the spirit of the game for many reasons. Like most people here, I grew up playing these games and it was always cool getting to see the stuff from Heroes, outside of the game. Whether its reading some fictional stories like the Odyssey and reading about a cyclops, watching some Disney movie like Hercules and seeing the centaur and the hydra or a crappy SiFi original movie about a manticore, mythology is everywhere and I like seeing different iterations of the creatures. I always think about Heroes when i seem them 
Now like you said, Ashan tried to rationalize everything, and making their own versions of things that already exist. So its no surprise it turns out bland. I look at their line ups and sure they have some good things, but I feel like you have to dig so much just find any hint of a mythological reference. Then it'll be followed up with something like, "Oh yeah that's not a manticore, that's just the name of it. Its actually a failed scientific experiment made by house CHimera of the Academy faction for purposes of blah blah blah.." Actual references to things, like genies getting sucked into a lamp when they die, basilisks/medusa turning things to stone (not mesmerized  ), a three headed Cerberus, they go a long way.
I used to be able to tell people about this game and describe it as this strategy game with a huge collection of every mythological thing you can think of, and you can fight with them. And that sounded cool because it is cool, and that's just not what Heroes is about anymore sadly..
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted March 02, 2016 08:18 PM |
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@The_Green_Drag
Yes, that is very much my own experience as well.
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted March 02, 2016 08:54 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
frostymuaddib said:
Though I know it is pointless talking to you, I will ask you one thing. Have you ever played Gem's campaign from H3SoD? If you had, you would realize that there are both sorceresses and druids in the old world, and that the lore didn't say: druids are the only spellcasters connected to nature based towns...
ofc. But gp-wise they basically were replaced by druids. And in Axeoth Sorceress became the CHAOS town magic hero, just like Warlock became the inferno town hero.
Quote:
And that makes AoW3 a bad game? LoL!
No, but it makes AoW3 budget larger since it's a "comeback" videogame, just like H5 budget was larger. I like AoW3 lol
That class switching only shows that older lore was more flexible. The new one isn't.
As for AoW3, the studio that made it has 15 people. And they did much better game, that even has native support for Linux! If I recall, H7 had (or still has?) issue with Win7 32 bit.
As for budget, I recall that H6 was a financial success, so it is reasonable to assume that H7 had enough money for development. Or did Ubi lie?
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"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted March 02, 2016 09:00 PM |
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frostymuaddib said:
As for budget, I recall that H6 was a financial success, so it is reasonable to assume that H7 had enough money for development. Or did Ubi lie?
The fun part about that is that even if is true, Ubi genuinely thinks people bought H6 because it was good. 
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted March 02, 2016 09:17 PM |
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frostymuaddib said:
That class switching only shows that older lore was more flexible. The new one isn't.
The sorceress/druid one happened because lore lol.
The Sorceress/Chaos Sorceress one is just them deciding to name a class with a name previously head by other class. Which is what happened in Ashan
At the very best all your argument can reach is "the people in charge of the story right now are restricting the story possibilities" lol
Quote:
As for AoW3, the studio that made it has 15 people. And they did much better game, that even has native support for Linux! If I recall, H7 had (or still has?) issue with Win7 32 bit.
As for budget, I recall that H6 was a financial success, so it is reasonable to assume that H7 had enough money for development. Or did Ubi lie?
ok but i already said AoW3 is a good game and H7 was poorly done, why do i have to repeat it in every post lol?
For all we know, H6 is what payed all the flop spin offs we had around that time (DoC, Heroes online, etc)
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted March 02, 2016 09:29 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
The sorceress/druid one happened because lore lol.
The Sorceress/Chaos Sorceress one is just them deciding to name a class with a name previously head by other class. Which is what happened in Ashan
At the very best all your argument can reach is "the people in charge of the story right now are restricting the story possibilities" lol
No. That is not what happened in Ashan. What happened was H6 that retconned almost everythig from H5, and discarded it's good sides, and set things in stone. So now, it is not possible to change classes, have different units or factions. The reason: Ashan. My point is that earlier universe was more flexible, while Ashan isn't.
GenyaArikado said:
ok but i already said AoW3 is a good game lol?
For all we know, H6 is what payed all the flop spin offs we had around that time (DoC, Heroes online, etc)
It is good game, and that has nothing to do with 10 year development. Heroes 6 could've have all the time of the world, and it failed. Miserably. That is only surpassed by H7. As for them wasting the money, that only shows how much they care about good game.
Face it H7 is a fail, and will be remembered as such. And just so you know, I hate that H6 and H7 are fails as I'm the fan of the series. But if the series continues like this, it will be doomed, if it already isn't.
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"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted March 02, 2016 11:04 PM |
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frostymuaddib said:
No. That is not what happened in Ashan. What happened was H6 that retconned almost everythig from H5, and discarded it's good sides, and set things in stone. So now, it is not possible to change classes, have different units or factions. The reason: Ashan. My point is that earlier universe was more flexible, while Ashan isn't.
The took X name, gave it to Y, and didnt bother to explain how did Y end up with X name. There may have not been retcon involved but the spirit is the same, if not worse, because the Warlocks are still nukers, just demon flavored look wise.
Where is the stone? Where are the lore reasons that make Ashan rigid? If whoever is in charge doesnt want races mixing up thats one thing, but there is nothing impeding factions to mix up lore-wise. It all boils down to Erwan or whatever decisions. I can think with easy ways to have an Infern-aven, Sylv-anctuary, Dung-opolis, etc and fit in with snowing ease.
The only thing Ashan does is explain why is X in Y faction. If you prefered the random unexplained switching around that's great, i didnt and my opinion is worth the same as yours.
Quote:
It is good game, and that has nothing to do with 10 year development. Heroes 6 could've have all the time of the world, and it failed. Miserably. That is only surpassed by H7. As for them wasting the money, that only shows how much they care about good game.
Face it H7 is a fail, and will be remembered as such. And just so you know, I hate that H6 and H7 are fails as I'm the fan of the series. But if the series continues like this, it will be doomed, if it already isn't.
So having a long period of development doesnt help at all to create a good game according to you? (ie) The progammers wouldnt benefict of the extra time to work more on the AI? lol please.
"Face it H7 is a fail" Am i speaking chinese or do you just suck at reading comprehension? i already said the game was poorly done and that maybe it could be fixed in the same vein that Dis3 was with extensive work done on it (which i already mentioned months ago, seems very unlikely). Answer when you find a post of mine saying H7 is a great game lol.
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted March 02, 2016 11:14 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
So having a long period of development doesnt help at all to create a good game according to you? (ie) The progammers wouldnt benefict of the extra time to work more on the AI? lol please.
"Face it H7 is a fail" Am i speaking chinese or do you just suck at reading comprehension? i already said the game was poorly done and that maybe it could be fixed in the same vein that Dis3 was with extensive work done on it (which i already mentioned months ago, seems very unlikely). Answer when you find a post of mine saying H7 is a great game lol.
You are not speaking chinese as far as I know, but you do tend to insult everyone, so re-reading your posts is not something that I like doing.
I never said that extra time doesn't help, you misunderstood. I just said that rushing H6 or H7 was not necessary. In other words, H6 and H7 had everything that AoW III had (maybe even more?), and they failed while AoW III succeded.
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"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
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vitirr
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 02, 2016 11:37 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
So having a long period of development doesnt help at all to create a good game according to you? (ie) The progammers wouldnt benefict of the extra time to work more on the AI? lol please.
Ehh do you really believe Triumph studios did nothing during those 10 years? That they were developing AoW3 during all that period? LOL.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted March 02, 2016 11:52 PM |
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@The_Green_Drag and Brukernavn
I feel the same as you Guys about the mythology in HI-III, and that's what I also like to call the games "charm"
GenyaArikado said:
blob2 said:
Yeah, then the crown would fall from their heads...
not getting your point
What I mean is that they're so deep in their own creation that giving the lore reins to Marzhin would mean that they oficially announce they suck at this. Oh no, they definately won't do that...
Oh and @Avirosb
Belive me when I say that AoW III has one of the most straightforward and logical managment systems in TBS games (actually you can say that about all the core mechanics). No hidden numbers and values, no RNG (oh wait, there are those lucky Halfling basterds though  ), each element is clearly described so you know what's exactly going on, each piece fits into the whole thing. And once you get the hang of it, it's pure joy (not overcomplicated but gives enough options to strategize).
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted March 03, 2016 12:45 AM |
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blob2 said:
What I mean is that they're so deep in their own creation that giving the lore reins to Marzhin would mean that they oficially announce they suck at this. Oh no, they definately won't do that...
I think you mixed things up a bit here, Genka was talking about original writers of Axeoth, not Marzhin.
BTW, if some didn't see, Verriker recently posted the full Unity campaign in the lore thread, he even left out Marzhin's tampering even with approval, to have the script as canon as possible, as Ubi Team couldn't refrain to even mess up that.
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Cyrca
Bad-mannered
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 03, 2016 01:29 AM |
- penalty applied by Elvin on 03 Mar 2016. |
Edited by Elvin at 06:33, 03 Mar 2016.
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Lol wtf
Second accounts not allowed
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted March 03, 2016 01:35 AM |
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@Vitirr No, the developement started in 2010 and the game got XP2 in 2015 (iirc the proper modding tools came with it, although afaik graphic wise you cant add anything new-new to the game). Its developement history is actually really interesting, they got financial backing by one of minecraft founders which is why Triumph could do it while still being independent and without using kickstarter.
@Glob Oh i understand. Yeah they really need some fresh blood. I believe the problen is more a "sensation" of restraint people feel here than actual restraint from the universe.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted March 03, 2016 09:20 AM |
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GenyaArikado said:
his example not mine
His example, your hyperbole.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted March 03, 2016 09:43 AM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 09:49, 03 Mar 2016.
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JollyJoker said:
Nah, upkeep is something happening automatically; it's simply been deducted, and you see your net income. You can hover the mouse over that, and then you will be simply shown how that figure comes to pass.
It's a factor only when you have a very low amount of towns (or vassals) and a very blown up military in comparison.
Which begs the question; how often should one build towns?
I know their areas of influence gradually expand but not in what way it affects the game.
Quote:
It's not more micro-management than in Heroes figuring out what you can spend so you can still build that dwelling you need to have asap.
Maybe, though in Heroes I didn't have to think about town happiness, how many armies I surround people with,
converting tiles, what to research, and flanking.
Then there's the fact units and Heroes have way, way more abilities to keep track of.
Quote:
On the other hand, even a really simple battle isn't boring, because units are not healed magically after a battle - each race has their own regeneration rules, and you have to be very careful not to jeopardize your ability to fight (if your units become too damaged they are prone to die, and since in AoW unit can get an unlimited amount of XP (and actually profit as well), the loss of a unit is not only a loss of Gold/Mana, but also a loss of XP.
And that's what makes it so terrifying, because a lost battle isn't only a lost battle but wasted time as well.
I feel I can't affort to lose a single unit as it might come back to bite me in the ass 40 minutes later.
Quote:
You can't really go wrong - it's in the sale bin at Steam (or at least it was a couple of days ago).
I actually pre-ordered it from GoG by mistake (I don't usually pre-order) and I feel I've given it a fair chance.
Never had any experience with the franchise to begin with, went in green.
Still am, got to the second stage in the first campaign.
Aside from the IMO shoddy-looking character models, It's not bad.
I just feel it's all a bit more involved than I have the time to fully dedicate myself to.
I do appreciate the response tho.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 03, 2016 10:22 AM |
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Since this is the Heroes 7 thread I'm going to answer with a PM here.
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted March 03, 2016 03:31 PM |
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Cyrca said:
Lol wtf
Second accounts not allowed
Next time I see a post from this account, both accounts will be penalized and silenced.
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 03, 2016 04:18 PM |
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted March 03, 2016 06:12 PM |
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Galaad said:
blob2 said:
What I mean is that they're so deep in their own creation that giving the lore reins to Marzhin would mean that they oficially announce they suck at this. Oh no, they definately won't do that...
I think you mixed things up a bit here, Genka was talking about original writers of Axeoth, not Marzhin.
Yeah I know that, but it doesn't matter if it's the original writers or Marzhin, my point was that they won't do such a thing, cause their pride won't let them. At least that's what I think...
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hahakocka
Known Hero
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posted March 05, 2016 12:01 PM |
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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/indiedesigners/paul-anthony-romero-the-piano-sonatas-album
Hi Heroes fans! Can you back this project?
Help us to release the first Heroes of Might and Magic piano sonata album & scorebook.
Some polish friends and fans need your help for a great cause!
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
