Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
New Server | HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info forum | HOMM4: info forum | HOMM5: info forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: ~ Heroes 7 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 7 - Discussion thread ~ This MEGA THREAD is 1629 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 330 660 990 1320 ... 1625 1626 1627 1628 1629 · «PREV / NEXT»
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted July 05, 2018 03:01 PM
Edited by Elvin at 15:17, 05 Jul 2018.

Stevie said:
How many times have you seen a Heroes 5 build where one hero fields a magic army and casts Armageddon every turn? Not once for me if it weren't for duels. That's the gimmicky stuff that I'm talking about, something that when you see it reignites that excitement for the game and makes you fall in love with it all over again. Sadly, I can't see that being possible within the framework of how Heroes has been thus far. Everything feels like going through the motions, do the same best build every game and win.

Maybe not with 3.1 balance(excluding dwarf/academy cheesiness) but it's still supported by the game's framework. My solution to balancing armageddon was to introduce fire protection in the fire tree. Now there is a choice between armour breaking effect for physical bonus or fire protection for armageddon fun times. I love armageddon, it is brutal but it comes with a price. That's the idea, that spells can have drawbacks but giving you the tools to tweak their gameplay should you so choose.

On a different note, simply adding a second class greatly increases the amount of viable strategies. Destructive or summoning with a knight's stats is obviously not worth trying but give the hero magic stats and suddenly haven becomes a different faction. Now you may even want to keep a space next to your archers because of phantom forces! Not to mention what happens with a semi-might academy, very adaptable. Magic inferno allows combos like summoning/dark, which is very fitting for a warlock. Lots of fun stuff.

I'm all for leaving all skills free for everyone but have different paths according to each class. So that a knight's offense skill would be different a ranger's offense but also from a cleric's. H6 had some good ideas for class abilities that were different for might and for magic. Expanding upon those abilities and distributing them throughout the skill trees could have some pretty interesting results. It would flesh out each class' character by giving them a different approach for each skill. Then some very few select bans, like orcs without tactics or inferno without leadership. Perhaps a diametrically opposite skill like intimidation(vs leadership) for inferno or misfortune(vs luck) for necro. Those would get the point across nicely. Then, what if leadership(or any other skill) was closer to solidarity mechanics? As in, a skill that helps you increase morale but not automatically, rather by creating the circumstances for better morale. Same could work for offense, defense, even magic skills.

So many options..
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Skeggy
Skeggy


Promising
Famous Hero
posted July 05, 2018 03:34 PM

JollyJoker said:
We seem to be talking apples and oranges.
Didn't I mention a couple of times already that I would want NEITHER factions in the H5 sense NOR faction specific hero classes in the H5 sense?
But instead Basic, Archetypical Hero classes available to all playable creature-collections, who would then DEVELOP into advanced classes.

I would like a system like in H4 where your initial two skills (that also have a number of abilities) determine your advanced class, but instead of getting only some kind of special out of it, it would unlock something like additional skills/abilities.

In Heroes 4 there are 11 BASIC Hero Classes
In the Might town you can hire all 6 Might hero classes (Knight, Barbarian, Death Knight, Thief, Lord, Archer). In the 5 other towns you can hire both basic heroes of your town plus each of the neighbors. For example, the Nature town is neighbours with Chaos and Life, which means, a Nature vtown can Hire Druid, Archer, Sorcerer, Thief, Knight and Priest.
Now. A Druid starts with Basic Nature Magic and Basic Herbalism. The Druid will stay a Druid as long as they don't gain a second skill with at least one subskill. But if he learns a new Skill, say, Scouting, and one subskill, say, Stealth, The Druid now becomes a BARD.

Now in H4, that only means, the hero gets a special, in this case "The hero has always max Luck".

However, it is entirely possible to unlock a new skill, the BARD skill, which might give luck and morale and might have a couple of interesting abilities or even spells at that.

Now this system would obviously depend on the general skill system and the number of BASIC skills. In H4 you have 9 basic skills, which gives you 9x8/2 = 36 advanced hero classes (plus 1 special case for any 3 magic skills), which is a lot.

With a Basic skill number below 6 the number of advanced classes would be too small. So you had:
6 basic skills: 15 possible advanced classes
7: 21
8: 28
9: 36

or sum(basic skills - 1)

I would probably be happy with 8 basic skills and 28 possible advanced classes.

Which also means that you could play any "town" with a variety of heroes, depending on how many different basic heroes a town might be able to hire, from 7 to 28, but which one would not be clear at start (you might have an idea what you'd want, but you'd have to start out with the corresponding basic hero class and then look whether you'd be offered the skill necessary to advance).


It is semi-rational to expect that new heroes game should have a system like H4 and that people would buy, play and mod that game.
So what, let me guess, magic system would also be like in H4?

But you know what, since developers already showed how unimaginative and rash they are, you should definitely tell them about your idea.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 05, 2018 03:58 PM

The semi-rational thing is to dismiss everything because H4 did it. In fact, it's not even SEMI-rational. It's just silly.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Skeggy
Skeggy


Promising
Famous Hero
posted July 05, 2018 04:09 PM

I'm just saying that franchise is dead if they don’t go deeper. H4 isn’t deeper.
Sure, why don’t have elements of H4 but then you should explain what is new about that concept.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
hahakocka
hahakocka


Known Hero
posted July 05, 2018 04:31 PM

I hope if they will announce Heroes 8 at this year Gamescom some Heroes 4 elements and features will appear too! Yes what you talk about the skill system and the hero on battlefield was a good thought! (Of course hero balance in fights was not good but it was released in alpha version)

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 05, 2018 04:50 PM

I didn't say it was new and it's certainly no "new angle", at least not as an isolated feature. I generally dislike the fact that ROOKIE heroes already start out as [heroname] and then stay that way. That's pretty lame.

It would make a lot more sense when you'd actually start as something like, say, a SQUIRE (with minimal abilities), and would then progress depending on your acquired skills to something like a Knight, a Paladin, a Crusader, a Warlord, a General or whatever else, actually unlocking special skill stuff by that.

On the other hand I would like to cut the strong connection between "faction" and "hero". Instead I'd like, if what is called "faction" now could hire all (or a big part of all) available heroes and then have different gameplay depending the combination of hero and town. "Faction skill" is way too limiting, because it means that a "faction" will always come with the same gimmicks.
That is, it's too broad a tool.

In H4 the advanced Hero Classes are more like, well, a bit of icing on the cake, because the special abilities they gain can be pretty minor and it's only one special ability.
However, there is no reason why that feature couldn't be broadened.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Skeggy
Skeggy


Promising
Famous Hero
posted July 05, 2018 06:14 PM

OK, so why not have both at the same time:

1.Standard skill tree - Available to all heroes of every faction with special spells and special attacks. All creatures regardless of the faction also have their standard skills that grows stronger if hero choose to develop its own standard skills.

2.Class skill tree - Every class has its own special class-defined skill-tree with special spells and special attacks. All creatures of the faction also receive special new skills that corresponds with hero class skills. Creature’s new skills grows stronger if hero choose to develop its class skills.

3.Faction skill tree – Available to all classes of the faction with special spells and special attacks. All creatures of the faction also receive special new skills that corresponds with hero factional skills. Creature’s new skills grows stronger if hero choose to develop its factional skills.

4.Racial skill tree - Available to all heroes of every faction (respectfully of their race) with special spells and special attacks. All creatures of the faction also receive special new skills that corresponds with hero racial skills. Creature’s new skills grows stronger if hero choose to develop its race skills.

5.Metaclass skill tree - Available to all heroes of every faction with special spells and special attacks. All creatures regardless of the faction also receive special new skills that corresponds with hero metaclass skills. Creature’s new skills grows stronger if hero choose to develop its metaclass skills.

Metaclass skill tree could be defined similarly to H4 meta classes, but much more elaborated, something along what you’ve described.
The goal is that every skill tree is equal in strength, complexity and available perks and levels so player could choose any type of connection between skill trees. And indeed, why not that heroes start exactly as you’ve described, they can later change their appearance respectfully of chosen skilltress.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Red_Flag
Red_Flag


Known Hero
posted July 05, 2018 06:19 PM

hahakocka said:
I hope if they will announce Heroes 8 at this year Gamescom some Heroes

Unfortunately, no strategy games planned at the Gamescom from Ubisoft on this moment: list of products
Anyway, I think it's some early now.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
hahakocka
hahakocka


Known Hero
posted July 05, 2018 06:57 PM

H6 and H7 weren't announced before Gamescom so...

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Armagerwin's Blade
posted July 05, 2018 07:07 PM

hahakocka said:
H6 and H7 weren't announced before Gamescom so...


actually not for sure as both leaked lol

personally I still hope for that ham sandwich I looked for in 2013 cheers lol
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted July 06, 2018 11:47 AM

Skeggy said:

1.Standard skill tree

2.Class skill tree

3.Faction skill tree

4.Racial skill tree

5.Metaclass skill tree


You forgot the hero's pet skill tree I enjoy rpgs as much as anyone but this is not my idea of heroes. Skill complexity would serve better a might&magic rpg.
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Skeggy
Skeggy


Promising
Famous Hero
posted July 06, 2018 12:55 PM

I never liked skilltrees of the pets. They Should be simple, linear, more or less automatically filled, offering simple yet somewhat notable buffs to a party, something like a one bash per battle, or slow, or something.
Anyway, could you be more precise? What does this “Skill complexity would serve better a might&magic rpg.” means?

Basically there are two questions:
1.What basic construction new hero games will have
2.Is that basic construction intelligent enough to make franchise alive enough for game to be sold, played and modded in relatively big numbers.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 06, 2018 01:07 PM

At this time the question is, who'd be willing to burn themselves with another try, because that particular franchise will be seen as a potential careerstopper by many.

What would obviously needed at THIS point is a 64-bit engine able to handle it, and I still don't see anyone else capable to pull this off as Triumph who just upgraded their Creator engine for their new game.

However, Triumph is now part of Paradox, so that would only happen, if Paradox bought the brand rights - or decided to do a Heroes game anyway, except with a different name.

Maybe Greg Fulton starts something, who knows.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted July 06, 2018 01:57 PM
Edited by PandaTar at 13:58, 06 Jul 2018.

Skeggy said:

Anyway, could you be more precise? What does this “Skill complexity would serve better a might&magic rpg.” means?



Do you know the Might & Magic game itself? From I to X? I think he was just saying that layering those skills like that feels more akin to the RPG Might & Magic game instead of a HoMM game, because it branches to many variables one would find too distracting in a fast-pacing game.

I, however, would not complain about such complexity on a Heroes game. I do feel, though, that heroes in a Heroes game need to be unique (if possible, having their own chain of peculiar skills, slightly interchanging based on which secondary skills the hero is evolving). So far they have been made as a generic thing in which they might be almost identical one from another save their speciality, which, many times, is not really a strong defining characteristic, one hero being far superior than the other ONLY because of that specialy. That might be called uniqueness, but that's just a small tip that makes it logical, intead of creating a variable mechanic that would make options less obvious and which would lead to other strategies in a the long run, less ruled by Logistics advantages, for example.

H4 had a bit more variation because heroes started very alike each other, but they transited to other classes with (some exceptions, of course) defined roles and traits, and this transit could either be faster or slower.

I am one that supports and loved heroes on the battlefield having a greater impact than their usual static participation on the side lines, however, as already pointed out by some people here and I concur as well, they should be balanced in a way that you could not simply slay scores of monsters single-handedly. Still, considering Heroes a key point to be defeated in battle, instead of only defeating their armies; as we know that in many wars and battles, some enemies sought their leaders in battle to kill, capture, etc., in the hope that the enemy lines would surrender, lose morale, and other effects which could be explored in a similar mechanic in the game.
____________

Heroes-based proposal threadOn hold, while I'm writing my book. =)

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 06, 2018 01:59 PM

Skeggy said:
I never liked skilltrees of the pets.



He was sarcastic

Seriously, if there was one thing I loved in past Heroes games was how easy you could understand the basics and start playing, kick stuff and people around. As soon as I saw that H5 wheel, the graphics and the subsequent loading time I knew it was over. (sorry H5 fellows, just my opinion)

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 06, 2018 02:01 PM

For some reason, I'm really not asking myself any questions about the future of Heroes. I feel no need to concern myself with any of that right now, especially seeing how little there is to anticipate and be excited for. I'd much rather spend my free time playing good games and let Ubisoft figure things out for their own franchise.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted July 06, 2018 02:06 PM

That was my impression too. It was a funny thing when I first saw the 3D townscreen. I was like: "Oh ... that's kinda nice! But that's so useless ..." And the loading time ... H5 was the last I played a bit, but I would soon stop, because I didn't felt like playing a Heroes game anymore, which differs from many here who interwines it with Heroes 3 so blatantly, at least mechanic-wise. And although I enjoyed a little those Expansion packs, the absurd amount of upgrades, which already felt overwhelming since H3, with double numbers was the end of it, specially because some were so better than others, reminding me of the heroes discrepancy when choosing the one to pick.

Of course, these things are or were addressed by mods, but still, I would hope a Heroes game with different mechanics for single and multiplayer, given that I'm not fond of the balancing necessity brought by competitive scene.
____________

Heroes-based proposal threadOn hold, while I'm writing my book. =)

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted July 06, 2018 02:39 PM
Edited by Galaad at 14:41, 06 Jul 2018.

Elvin said:
I enjoy rpgs as much as anyone but this is not my idea of heroes. Skill complexity would serve better a might&magic rpg.


In full agreement. I don't want to be spending hours of understanding how the game works before I can finally start playing. Again, easy to get into but hard to master is a key element of these games.

Salamandre said:
As soon as I saw that H5 wheel, the graphics and the subsequent loading time I knew it was over. (sorry H5 fellows, just my opinion)


As much as I agree with graphics and loading times, the H5 skill system is fairly easy to get into. How it feels when you play? Instead of being proposed two skills as in H3, you get two skills and two sub-skills. Additionally, each town has their exclusive skill. More options but not more complicated. I had no problems whatsoever familiarizing myself with H5's skill system.
____________
Even Italian restaurants seemed to betray me. -Neraus

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted July 06, 2018 02:45 PM

Salamandre said:
Skeggy said:
I never liked skilltrees of the pets.



He was sarcastic

Seriously, if there was one thing I loved in past Heroes games was how easy you could understand the basics and start playing, kick stuff and people around. As soon as I saw that H5 wheel, the graphics and the subsequent loading time I knew it was over. (sorry H5 fellows, just my opinion)

H5 system was great but nobody should ever have to memorize skill trees, much less have to look up a skillwheel. Cross-skill pre-requisites and ultimate skill prerequisites looked cool but were unnecessary and confusing(certain classes could have different requirements than others).

1) First off, one should consider what skills he wants. It shouldn't matter if you pick attack, luck or leadership, they all should be roughly the same in power. And neither should have a gamebreaking ability that you absolutely need for your build. Pick your basic gameplay approach and take things from there.

2) Cross-skill requirements make more sense in a manual point-buy system. Going random and needing both luck and enlightenment for warlock's luck? It may take long or you may not even get them both. I understand if a faction is supposed to get something easier but balancing a build on probabilities feels wrong.

3) Trees should have intuitive branches. Suppose you get luck, its abilities could follow a simple structure or might/magic/adventure, each unlocking similarly themed advanced abilities. If you knew you want a magic-focused hero, it would be easy to follow that path.

4) A basic ability should not unlock more than 2 advanced abilities or future level ups could get messy.

5) In case of random skills, you should be unable to get more abilities than your mastery level. Basic, one ability. Two if you get advanced. Three in expert. That way you can not only prevent certain abilities from popping up on level ups but also force you to prioritize. You cannot pick all abilities so you have to consider which will occupy your 3 available slots. H7 overlooked that and unwanted abilities kept pestering you throughout the game.

More could be done to make that skill system smoother but even starting with those, the core H5 system would be greatly improved.
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Skeggy
Skeggy


Promising
Famous Hero
posted July 06, 2018 03:51 PM

3d is interesting because creatures and effects can be observed in a more detailed way and when combined with ATB bar, ATB changing effects and ATB icons, player can enjoy completely new level of immersion that enables more accurate choice of adequate response. H5 type of 3d enables players to give their best, both in strategic and in tactical sense. Of course, for that level of tactical immersion spells schools need to be categorized in intuitive manner.

Skilltrees are Achilles' heel of every game. That’s why it’s best if player just follow its own sense of right path, chooses one path, develop it fully, and then perhaps some another, according to its own hierarchization of righteousness. Paths should be equal in strength, self-explanatory as much as possible and have its skilltrees as in-game graphical representations.

Pre-creating possible perfect paths cannot really be viable theme of discussion, that is and should remain complete discretion of game maker. Well, perhaps it can, but only after basic skeleton of the game has been addressed properly and that means enabling an intelligent choice concerning strategy, tactics and leveling.

If player wants to know more about gameplay, reading the manual is more than inevitable activity.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread » This MEGA THREAD is 1629 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 330 660 990 1320 ... 1625 1626 1627 1628 1629 · «PREV / NEXT»
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.4704 seconds