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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 31, 2015 03:04 PM |
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properkheldar said:
I want elves to look like a generic robin hoods and orcs to look like strange orange pigs again. Damn you ubisoft for challenging my nostalgic childhood conception of rightness. Ashan should burn in a thousand fires for all eternity and Ubisoft is the devil and Erwan the herald of the apocalypse. The end.
Wow.. shut up and go read bed time stories or grow up, guess what thing change.... I haven't been disgusted by a comment in such a way, since JE posted his ideas of gender depiction
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted January 31, 2015 03:04 PM |
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properkheldar said:
I want elves to look like a generic robin hoods and orcs to look like strange orange pigs again. Damn you ubisoft for challenging my nostalgic childhood conception of rightness. Ashan should burn in a thousand fires for all eternity and Ubisoft is the devil and Erwan the herald of the apocalypse. The end.
pretty much spot on lol
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properkheldar
Famous Hero
Keeper of books
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posted January 31, 2015 03:05 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
properkheldar said:
I want elves to look like a generic robin hoods and orcs to look like strange orange pigs again. Damn you ubisoft for challenging my nostalgic childhood conception of rightness. Ashan should burn in a thousand fires for all eternity and Ubisoft is the devil and Erwan the herald of the apocalypse. The end.
Wow.. shut up and go read bed time stories or grow up, guess what thing change.... I haven't been disgusted by a comment in such a way, since JE posted his ideas of gender depiction
This thing, called irony, seems quite lost on you.
____________
"Man spends his life in reasoning on the past, in complaining of the present, in fearing future."
- Antoine Rivarol
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 31, 2015 03:05 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 15:14, 31 Jan 2015.
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DIEGIS said:
As everyone knows, ubi released recently - on 29th of January - Heroes 3 HD. I was very excited to hear that, but didn't buy it, cose of the H6 experience. Well, it seems I did a good thing!
http://store.steampowered.com/app/297000/
Quick note. The comments are not 55% positive (mixed) at all. There is one user under the name "ambefalet" that made the majority of the positive comments. And another one "ikke ambefalet" made the majority of negative comments.
Lmao.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 31, 2015 03:09 PM |
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properkheldar said:
This thing, called irony, seems quite lost on you.
Pretty much.. or try a better approach to it, since that was not funny in any way.. And I'm sick of this topic.. Change is good. We need change if we won't chagne we won't get anywhere.. end
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted January 31, 2015 03:47 PM |
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Speaking of change .... One thing I always wanted to be improved in these games is siege battles. I liked H5 and all, but siege battles were kinda ... well the same as always. And in H6 ... creatures can attack walls great - but more or less useless.
Here is what I mean. Every town has a ditch around it. And steping there will cause you serious loses (unless it's like 15'th month in game and you have Zounds of Black Dragons). What this does, is camping outside and hoping to brake the gate with catapult/creatures, and then storming the castle. Unless gate is broken, you realy don't wanna attack. This also means spells like Eartquake etc. are realy not that great.
And on the defender's side, your ditch usualy does nothing but prolong the game, and you are also not much worried if enemy brakes walls since ... lava/spikes/mines/you name it is there. There's also not much reason to "sally forth" and maybe destory their catapult. Siege battles are predictable.
Imo it would be far better if every faction would have their own version of defence. Haven can have ditch. But Academy for instance would have randomly placed mines on the terrain. Mines can be next to wall, but not always. This would mean attacker would have equal chance to step on mine, no matter on which section of wall he would choose to advance. But would also not be guaranteed to step on it if standing next to wall. Necro might instead have global effect cast on all enemies, that would reduce their initiative and morale, and make them take some damage every time they move. Other factions would have other things.
This imo would create more possible entry points and make sieges more dynamic, witouth compromising defender's advantage. It would also mean that you would have to prepare your strategy, as diferent aproach might work for diferent town.
Now, I'm not saying current siege system is awful or anything similar. However I do belive it has room for improvement.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 31, 2015 04:02 PM |
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Personally I don't think this is enough. The Siege battles should be a kind of a very hard test for both sides. So Why not add a few tactical levels.
1 - Make walls bigger. over 2-3 spaces. so we get a more varied battlefield.
2 - More complex sieg skills. We now have Catapults, earthquakes, but why not give enhanced abilities. Like Burning oil as a cooldown ability for the defending hero. Or For the attacker the ability to place ladders for creatures to use.
3 Create the gate in a better was. Gates were crucial, well defended bottle necked parts of the defense. So why not reflect this in the game as well.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 31, 2015 04:12 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
Pretty much.. or try a better approach to it, since that was not funny in any way..
In defense of Dave, Prop may have been ironic, but there are plenty people with post such things without a shred of irony or humour.
Which why the custom has emerged to follow things that shouldn't be taken seriously with one of these emoticons:     or a [/sarcasm] when that would apply.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 31, 2015 04:15 PM |
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@Zombi_Wizard, good ideas there  I support the idea of defferent defence for each faction.
@Dave_Jame bigger walls will just prolong the siege and make it very difficult to break in. On more complex siege skill I agree though. Maybe even add oil thrower from Heroes Online - a siege machine for defenders.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 31, 2015 04:18 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
Change is good.
Change for the sake of change is good? Most of the time it isn't.
Change for the better is good, and Ashan hardly subscribes under that.
@Zombie, about Siege, if it can be improved I'm all for it. But those features you mention are more or less already present in some Heroes games. Maybe something more innovative is needed?
I for one have been arguing in favor of global combat effects for some time now. And there's a variety of ways of implementing that: terrain, spells, hero perks, scripted events, etc. Would make battles more interesting and varied imo.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted January 31, 2015 04:38 PM |
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Well I'm all for even bigger and more invative siege and combat improvements. But imo it's unlikely to happen. Burning Oil is awsome suggestion. Weather effects would also be good idea. Or that certain spells would have diferent effectivness on different terrain types.
We also have changing terrain on campaign map now. So I'm pretty excited about this, but what about dynamic battlefield? Say your units attack a tree and it falls, creating diferent obsticle for eg. with cover mechanics this could be great.
Imo there is a lot room here, but I don't have very high hopes for even small changes, let alone more dramatic ones. 
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted January 31, 2015 05:17 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
Well I'm all for even bigger and more invative siege and combat improvements. But imo it's unlikely to happen. Burning Oil is awsome suggestion. Weather effects would also be good idea. Or that certain spells would have diferent effectivness on different terrain types.
We also have changing terrain on campaign map now. So I'm pretty excited about this, but what about dynamic battlefield? Say your units attack a tree and it falls, creating diferent obsticle for eg. with cover mechanics this could be great.
Imo there is a lot room here, but I don't have very high hopes for even small changes, let alone more dramatic ones.
If they indeed make the game as moddable as they say they will, I think in time we'll have it. I personally believe we can't burden the devs to think of everything - they should give us and the modding community a blueprint to work on.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted January 31, 2015 05:28 PM |
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Speaking about changes in sieges, I don't want any except one thing - only units with specific abilities should be able to destroy walls, not all of them, otherwise moats will be useless again.
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Wellplay
Famous Hero
Poland Stronk
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posted January 31, 2015 05:33 PM |
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Edited by Wellplay at 17:34, 31 Jan 2015.
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Pawek_13 said:
Speaking about changes in sieges, I don't want any except one thing - only units with specific abilities should be able to destroy walls, not all of them, otherwise moats will be useless again.
When H7 stream was airing walls & moats could only get destroyed by catapult units could not even touch them.
So i think this mechanic is long gone.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted January 31, 2015 05:40 PM |
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Mods are fine and all, but what im thinking about is more in the way of how game itself would evolve. I mean we hardly had any major changes to gameplay since first game basicaly. Most noticable was that we have 7 creature stacks instead of 5 in army.
Most changes are surface only, in visuals and lore, which serve no other purpose than to piss off some people who liked old style. But I don't wanna get back to this discussion again (scroll back last 100 pages ).
H4 atempted to introduce some new things, but it was poorly implemented. In H5 we got what to me is arguably best improvement to great H3 forumla, with skill wheel and might heroes being able to attack, aswell as initiative system. H6 did give us something, like cover system and teritory, but on the other hand took back the improved combat and initiative mechanics of H5, and returned them to H3 system, as well as removing skill-wheel and totaly butchering magic system ... which cofuses me. Why?
Mods are great, and one of reasons H3 is still alive is because of great moders. But to have realy evolution in game series, while still remaining true to original idea, is imo on developer's side of things.
Also what anoys me about mods is that I do not know how to do them myself. It seems hard, so I feel respect to people who can do that
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted January 31, 2015 06:14 PM |
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@Zombi_Wizzard:
Problem is that gamers are awfully conservative group. They are hardly convinced to changes in their favourite games and revolutions in gameplay are often seen very poorly, so introducing new content can be risky. Look at our beloved liches. I am 99% sure that if liches had flesh at first and skeletal ones would be introduced later, the reaction would be equally negative. The same with changes in sieges - if they would be radical ones, then they would be met with negative reactions. Why? "Because it doesn't feel like Heroes games anymore", therefore game designers rather stay with old but safe solutions than invent something new and if they do (and it fails, it does usually), they go back to the formal design choices.
Here is a link that copes with that problem extensively and does it better than I would.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 31, 2015 06:31 PM |
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Visuals aside, Heroes 5 had some good innovations at a mechanics/gameplay level, like Skillwheel and Dynamic Initiative. It's not always because of a conservative approach that some innovations are met with negative criticism, sometimes they are just genuinely bad.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 31, 2015 06:32 PM |
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Pawek_13 said:
@Zombi_Wizzard:
Problem is that gamers are awfully conservative group. They are hardly convinced to changes in their favourite games and revolutions in gameplay are often seen very poorly, so introducing new content can be risky. Look at our beloved liches. I am 99% sure that if liches had flesh at first and skeletal ones would be introduced later, the reaction would be equally negative. The same with changes in sieges - if they would be radical ones, then they would be met with negative reactions. Why? "Because it doesn't feel like Heroes games anymore", therefore game designers rather stay with old but safe solutions than invent something new and if they do (and it fails, it does usually), they go back to the formal design choices.
Here is a link that copes with that problem extensively and does it better than I would.
I'm not actually sure you are right about this point. A better more complex approach to battles, especially in siege ones, is a common theme among us. Even the Destructive walls and accessible towers were not seen as a directly "bad" addition in H6.
And this, what I and Z-W started is not a change, but evolution. This is not changing game mechanics, or lore, or aesthetics, but making existing game mechanics more deeper and complex.
This is a field that can be improved upon.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted January 31, 2015 06:47 PM |
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A good developoer can improve on the game, and still retain the feeling of game. Like Stevie pointed out, H5 was example of this. However H4 to less extent. It did interasting changes, but a lot of people didn't like it ... coz it just didn't feel "right". Still H4 has quite a few fans, and I can definetly see the reasons.
I don't belive anyone complained about skill-wheel, or Might heroes being able to attack and do abilities, or having 7 creatures in army instead of 5 etc ... well some probably did, but I belive it's safe to say those changes were positively recieved by majority.
Like Dave_Jame says - it's evolution, not changing the fundementals of how to play this game.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 31, 2015 07:45 PM |
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I Will try to create an example how I think siege battle could be improved only based adding siege specific abilities. Into the mix.
Instead of „Ballistics“, let us create a general ability related to „Siege warfare“, and why not call it so. I‘ll base this on the H5 skill model. 3 levels (B-A-E) with perks
Basic Siege warfare: Increases the dmg of City towers when defending, increases the catapults chance to hit and dmg during an attack. Allowed to have 1 perk of choice
Advanced Sief warfare: Gives the player controle of the catapult if attacking, or the ability to aim with towers while defending. Allows 2 perks
Expert Siege Warfare: Increases dmg of towers while defending. During an attack, it gives the option to fire „blazing rocks“, that affect a 3x3 are of the heroes choice, instead of a normal attack with the catapult. The dmg to walls is reduced but the attack does dmg to all units in the area, with fire based dmg, based on the heroes attack. 3 perks
Example of perks
Perk one „storm the walls“: The hero gains 2 special siege battle related ability. „The wall must hold“ – The hero can use his action to slightly repair a 3 square long segment of a wall, only wall adjacent to a friendly creature can be prepared (Only during defensive, cooldown 2). „The wall must fall“ - A bomb is planted under a single segment of the wall. At the beginning of the next turn, massive dmg will be dealt to the segment. The bomb can be planted only under a space, next to a friendly creature (Only during attack, cooldown 3).
Perk two „War on the wall“: The hero gains 2 special siege battle related abilities. „Up you go!“ – (Only during attack, cooldown 3 turns). Put a ladder on two spaces adjacent to the enemy wall. As long as the ladder stands your creatures can cross the wall at this point. If the ladder is destroyed and there are creatures on it, deal minor dmg to them. The ladder can be erected only next the a friendly creature „Down she goes“ - (Only during defensive, cooldown 3 turns) You gain the ability to drop boiling oil on your enemy, dealing heavy fire based damage to them. You can only do so from the wall, with a friendly unit must be adjacent to it.
Note that perks are designed in such a way, to be useful in all siege battles. And not just in one.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
