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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted July 05, 2015 10:18 PM |
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the skill's primary faction should certainly be the best at using the skill, but it shouldn't have higher values or anything to get that. They should just be better at taking advantage of it. for example, Sylvan has several ways of attacking more than once in order to apply stacks. stacks doesn't get stronger or anything but the skill is better with sylvan creatures since they can get more stacks on. that's how it should be. I believe Justicars wouldn't be too bad to use in a sylvan army either since she seems like a good fit both for the skill and the army itself.
Academy has creatures strengthening magic, making metamagic more powerful as a result, but those number aren't increased because they belong to academy. Other heroes can use that as well. This is how it should be. The skill doesn't get stronger by the hero having its own faction troops but is able to utilize both better.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted July 05, 2015 10:19 PM |
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Edited by verriker at 22:24, 05 Jul 2015.
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lol, well, blood rage is only a problem for nominal reasons really, it doesn't have to be tied to the orcs because anybody with a pulse can get angry lol
it would probably not work very well on the wizards or the undead, but there you go, if the skill naturally works out to be most effective with orcs then that's an example of the problem solving itself lol
necromancy is basically the first racial skill in Heroes and even since its origin it's been mixed and matched around between factions, the Warlocks in Heroes 2 had a small chance to learn it, and there was a unique Knight hero who had it in the campaign
in that game you get a big morale penalty for merging undead troops with the living though, so yeah there are lots of ways to dodge balance pitfalls with foreign heroes lol
if a racial skill is in a position where it would actually work better if applied to another faction and has to be cordoned off artificially for that reason, it's a bad racial skill and should be redesigned lol
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted July 05, 2015 11:11 PM |
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My take on it:
- Allow racials to affect troops of other factions, but at a reduced efficiency. Balacing will have to figure out just how much reduced it is. In the case of Sylvan's marks, other faction creatures would only have a chance to add a mark;
- As for the three specials (Necromancy, Gating and Bloodrage):
-- Necromancy: change the skill. Allow it only to resurrect fallen units during combat, which don't persist after battle per se. Rather, after battle, the Necromancy skill will raise Undead from across all victims to be added to the Undead army permanently;
-- Gating: allow the non-Inferno creatures to act as anchors for Demonic spirits, who only exist in the world of Ashan as long as the link is present (i.e. the parental stack is present), but are otherwise not nearly as strong as normal Demons;
-- Bloodrage: allow biological units to go into a frenzy, but at reduced efficiency compared with Stronghold creatures;
Now, the latter one has issues with Undead creatures, as it's hard to go into a frenzy when you have no emotions  . I'm not sure on how to solve that one.
As for mixing multiple different factions, the trick is managing the army as a whole. In H3, the Fire Witch campaign has a number of story elements where the clash between Tatalian and Enrothian troops from the same army is described. In particular, the scene where two knights try to mount a Gorgon comes to mind  . Essentially, mixing troops is a matter of managing the army. I'd say put a level restriction on it. Combine one other at level 10, a second one at level 20 for three different ones. Allow the Leadership skill or Diplomacy skill (whichever is higher, not both) to mix more, one per skill level. A Grandmaster in Leadership or Diplomacy can then mix 7 factions at level 20. A Hero cannot take on creatures from more different factions that he's allowed. The only morale penalty that's present is when Undead are part of the combined army.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted July 05, 2015 11:18 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 23:19, 05 Jul 2015.
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Maurice said:
Now, the latter one has issues with Undead creatures, as it's hard to go into a frenzy when you have no emotions . I'm not sure on how to solve that one.
The undead have always been different in regards to how they work with others since they were added so I am not sure you would have to solve that. About the rest why does have to be restrictions on anything why? What is the point of restricting skills or creatures in armies. It is not needed in game and is certainly not realistic I honestly don't see the point.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 05, 2015 11:19 PM |
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Gryphs said:
That's true and I dislike that skill just like bloodrage.
Well, like or dislike, it is skills like Bloodrage, Gating and Necromancy that give the factions their unique character. In principle, I'm not against having the Haven skill apply to all creatures in his army, but from a game-design perspective, I think this is bad game-design because it opens likely scenarios where a Haven hero will be your preferred hero when playing another faction which to me just is ... undesirable. In that regard, I think the Heroes 5 "Training" skill for Haven was much better, because you once again had skill that was at the same time unique and linked to the specific creatures without this being executed in an awkward manner.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted July 06, 2015 08:25 AM |
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Any suggestions about the dublicate abilities almost all creatures share?
Any ideas for the poor ghost? Blade master(if his hp isn't really 35 vigilance is kinda useless?)
Will unfettered really help golems,stags amd crushers?
Suggestions for alternate abilities for the said creatures?
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted July 06, 2015 09:30 AM |
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Maurice said:
-- Necromancy: change the skill. Allow it only to resurrect fallen units during combat, which don't persist after battle per se. Rather, after battle, the Necromancy skill will raise Undead from across all victims to be added to the Undead army permanently;
Not to be rude or anything, but isn't that almost the same as they did in H6, and we all know how that ended..
ChrisD1 said:
Any suggestions about the dublicate abilities almost all creatures share?
Any ideas for the poor ghost? Blade master(if his hp isn't really 35 vigilance is kinda useless?)
Will unfettered really help golems,stags amd crushers?
Suggestions for alternate abilities for the said creatures?
Why can't some basic, game-mechanic based abilities be used more often? Falnking and Movement reduction are common mechanics so why not have more then one unit with an abilitie that works with them?
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted July 06, 2015 10:14 AM |
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Edited by Maurice at 10:14, 06 Jul 2015.
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Dave_Jame said:
Not to be rude or anything, but isn't that almost the same as they did in H6, and we all know how that ended.
To a degree. In that game, the player was able to choose which creatures were resurrected and he could do so for 7 days after the battle took place (well, 7 was with special town buildings). In my concept, the player doesn't have a choice in the matter and it's only immediately after the battle, not with a backlog.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted July 06, 2015 10:17 AM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 10:19, 06 Jul 2015.
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alcibiades said:
I think this is bad game-design because it opens likely scenarios where a Haven hero will be your preferred hero when playing another faction which to me just is ... undesirable.
I honestly don't mind this but that is my opinion. Personally I believe a mixed system is best and Heroes 5 actually did this for some skills. For example Haven's skill had benefits other factions could use such as benediction but a part of it the retraining of units was only for haven. The same can be said of sylvans too. I guess not making them completely useless to other factions but like kiryu said making them better for the originator.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted July 06, 2015 10:33 AM |
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Faction skills should be best when used with the native faction, but that should come from faction design, not tweaking numbers in its favor. I've already touched on how h7 appears to do this with metamagic synergizing with the magic-manipulating academy creatures. It's still usable with any other army but will find better use since academy creature improve hero spellcasting. Same with Sylvan, having creatures attacking several enemies at once or having several attacks, allowing for more marks being placed every turn. None of these skills should be made weaker with other armies since they are already weaker due to other factions not being designed to help in that skill. Synergies could still be found, for example i could imagine Justicars being really useful in a sylvan army with its double attack and special retaliation ability (if it adds stacks). That's depth and should be allowed. Doesn't make the rest of haven suitable for nature's revenge (though any faction with piercing shot could potentially be fantastic).
Making necromancy different when used with a different army is not a good idea: it should be the exact thing, it's just that necromancy is frowned upon through game design: You get undead creatures but your army lose morale because they don't like fighting alongside corpses. Necro has always (and should always) be special in that they have several spells and abilities that are harmful to living creatures. You can still use necromancy just as well as ever, The game (lore-building through design  ) tells you it's not a good idea.
And yes, bloodrage and gating should work the same: If it makes no sense in the lore your lore is bad. And none of us play heroes exclusively for the lore anyway, do we?
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted July 06, 2015 10:33 AM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 10:34, 06 Jul 2015.
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Dave_Jame said:
Why can't some basic, game-mechanic based abilities be used more often? Flanking and Movement reduction are common mechanics so why not have more then one unit with an abilitie that works with them?
Flanking is indeed a new game mechanic and we are bound to see vigilance quite some times. But giving the ghost "vigilance" was a clear "cutting corners" trick since incorporeality might have proved more difficult to implement. Also vampire?? And the blade master too?
And how often do we see movement reduction so 3 (for now..) creatures must share that? And moreover since those abilities will be more common why not give the creature an extra passive to make it more distinct?
Ghost can have vigilance but don't make it its only passive for example.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted July 06, 2015 10:45 AM |
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ChrisD1 said:
Flanking is indeed a new game mechanic and we are bound to see vigilance quite some times. But giving the ghost "vigilance" was a clear "cutting corners" trick since incorporeality might have proved more difficult to implement. Also vampire?? And the blade master too?
And how often do we see movement reduction so 3 (for now..) creatures must share that? And moreover since those abilities will be more common why not give the creature an extra passive to make it more distinct?
Ghost can have vigilance but don't make it its only passive for example.
Well Ghosts have a different special, beeing able to be risen by necromancy later in the game.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted July 06, 2015 10:59 AM |
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Dave_Jame said:
Well Ghost have a different special, beeing able to be risen by necromancy later in the game.
You sly fox you
Ok racials give creatures a distinct flavor indeed. And that's why it's cool and logical that faction racials work only on faction creatures,in regard of precious posts.
But sincerely it feels oversimplyfied. H6 ghosts on my opinion got it right! Bur when you put it that way (racials and all) I can accept it a little bit.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 06, 2015 04:18 PM |
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I loved H5 Ghosts myself.
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jhb
Famous Hero
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posted July 06, 2015 05:37 PM |
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not sure, but I'm tending to agree that is ok if racials are more faction oriented, there is another detail to keep an eye on: when we are mixing, we want creatures that are already very good by themselves. I mean, we will look for archangels, dragons, titans, good shoooters, not gnolls, zombies or peasants.
Unless we are going to change faction for some reason, If we want to mix, we will try to get the best of other units.
My point is some units are already very good and can make mixing worth it, even without racials.
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted July 06, 2015 06:24 PM |
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It looks like Sylvan Might heroes, actually, are able to move about. Light-looking attire.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted July 06, 2015 06:38 PM |
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First thought after seeing the heroes:
"Go! Go! Power Rangers!"
Man, Erwan gets inspiration from so many places. Next thing you know is that Dwarwes will look like Smurfs.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted July 06, 2015 07:01 PM |
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Ubisaft said:
In case you missed it, discover Sylvan's faction skill: Nature's Revenge
OK enought is enought, the broken English is not even funny any more, why do they insist to keep using the verb discover lol
to discover usually means to stumble upon something you didn't expect to find, like eureka I've discovered Uranus, or I discovered a fedora tagged "property of Erwin" on my trip to Brittany, but the only one who discovered Sylvan's faction skill is the Limbic designer who designed it lol
you can't normally tell a large crowd of people to discover something because it isn't really a discovery then lol
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted July 06, 2015 07:26 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 19:28, 06 Jul 2015.
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Quote:
Windwalkers -> pillars of the forests, strong oaks standing still in the storm
Bwahaha, they got me good this time  Kudos Ubisoft! Kuuudos!
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alexine
Known Hero
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posted July 06, 2015 07:43 PM |
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no boobplate
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We´re beautiful like diamonds in the sky ...
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