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Royin
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 04, 2014 04:46 PM |
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Edited by Royin at 16:47, 04 Oct 2014.
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ChrisD1 said:
@Royin
in his example he said that mario 3d(mario 64, galaxy etc) sold less because of the 3d addition. and 2d gaming took the lead. and then he excluded mario 3ds because it's new so it was bound to sell.
i am a pokemon fan and i assure you pokemon X and Y adding 3d movement, mega evolutions (new stuff compared to pokemon gameplay) and making it all about competitive gaming(instead of rpg) attracted bizillions of new fans(i was in a forum and saw that) and it sold like crazy. because of innovation.
and because i was a member of a pokemon forum players tend to love the pokemon that bring you wins(garchomp,talonflame from newer gens)
some were nostalgic and used their previous ones, but they weren't butthurt that people like to play with newer ones, or that the franchise moved on.
nomatter the video, the sales etc, we are still in a new universe.
they are doing their best to incorporate stuff from the past and they actually do it and trying to stay consistent to the new atmosphere.
100% of something(nostalgia,innovation) isn't good. we have a fair share of nostalgia in the newer heroes games and innovation(hello ashan).
the game is still the same,(turn based,strategy,factions), sylvan is still about nature and magic (pixies,enchanted deers instead of enchanted horses) and elves since it's ashan again.
thinking that A SINGLE UNIT WOULD SAVE THIS GAME FROM CATASTROPHE is plain silly.
the game would sell more if we were to see unicorns or black dragons? really?
if you think nostalgia sells more go to ubi with a heroes 3.2 plan and sell it to them.
lets see how the new fans or people who want to be fans accept your nostalgia. the old fans are a limited number of persons. the new fans however will always be limitless. and they will always be a more enticing target group.
i will say again, a new player for this game wants to build his/her own nostalgia after some time, not continue yours.
He said "Let's clear away the 3DS and Wii U games since those systems are still new and the sales numbers of those systems are still coming in" As in, it wouldn't be fair to bring them into the comparison as their numbers aren't final, even though their growth is probably little. Even if you include them, Super Mario 3D Land sold 9.61m copies. Which is a big number but if you compare it to its older siblings New Super Mario Bros. sold 29.5m and New Super Mario Bros. Wii sold 27.52m copies.
Same goes for Pokemon. Red/Blue sold 31.37m copies and the innovative X/Y that according to you brought "a bazillion new fans" sold 11.83m...
And to be honest, if people are really new players, then everything is an innovation to them as its their first time playing the game. So yes, I do believe nostalgic things such as black dragons and unicorns will sell more copies.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 04, 2014 05:24 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
preference card! cool 
so i am lost about dunegon, what will their story be?
Frankly, I don't give a damn about what their story is. But I do find the potential variation in Dungeon line-up marginally more interesting than that in Inferno line-up. Ans after all, Black Dragons are just one of the all-time iconic Heroes creatures.
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What will happen now?
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 04, 2014 05:26 PM |
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@royin
so the comparison in uneven and it doesn't have to do with nostalgia at all. pokemon r/b/g is almost a 20 year old game while X/Y is a 2 year old game.
the fact that something still sells means it's good, not because people felt nostalgia about the franchise.
new players will feel that they lost so much at their arrival, lore and story wise. while, a new enviroment every now and then refreshes the big picture and more people can join in.
old players are a very limited number of buyers and a franchise can't survive on that at all, when developing a game with better graphics, since games are more expensive to make.
you can't cater EXCLUSIVE to old players because of nostalgia.
bad marketing.
and if you think such a small detail as two iconic creatures (not the only ones btw, many others got included) is going to bring more copies, then don't you ever ever try marketing. like ever.
so lets go one more time:
new players are a far greater potential, money-wise, than a still number of people.
how do you bring in more new players? part of it, is that you make them feel welcome and a start of something. you don't make them feel like they are the new kids that need to blindly follow tradition because a precise group of people demand their franchise to never change.
If they ever decide to remake a heroes 3 remake i would so welcome it and enjoy it! but this game moved on and H7 will definetely won't be a heroes 3 remake. despite the similarities it's in another universe.
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Valen-Teen
Famous Hero
UFOlolOgist
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posted October 04, 2014 06:05 PM |
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My dream: Dungeon line-ups
1. Force of shadows
Core: Assassin / Blood fury / Lurker
Elite: Witch / Minotaur / Grim rider
Champions: Black Dragon / Faceless
2. Creatures of the dark
Core: Assassin / Shadow panter / Lurker
Elite: Manticore / Basilisk / Witch
Champions: Hydra / Faceless
3. Malassa's children
Core: Lurker / Shadow panter / Blood fury
Elite: Witch / Grim rider / Assassin
Champions: Minotaur / Hydra
So  for fans. I guess in this case Force of shadows will win
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Royin
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 04, 2014 06:10 PM |
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Edited by Royin at 18:10, 04 Oct 2014.
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ChrisD1 said:
@royin
so the comparison in uneven and it doesn't have to do with nostalgia at all. pokemon r/b/g is almost a 20 year old game while X/Y is a 2 year old game.
the fact that something still sells means it's good, not because people felt nostalgia about the franchise.
new players will feel that they lost so much at their arrival, lore and story wise. while, a new enviroment every now and then refreshes the big picture and more people can join in.
old players are a very limited number of buyers and a franchise can't survive on that at all, when developing a game with better graphics, since games are more expensive to make.
you can't cater EXCLUSIVE to old players because of nostalgia.
bad marketing.
and if you think such a small detail as two iconic creatures (not the only ones btw, many others got included) is going to bring more copies, then don't you ever ever try marketing. like ever.
so lets go one more time:
new players are a far greater potential, money-wise, than a still number of people.
how do you bring in more new players? part of it, is that you make them feel welcome and a start of something. you don't make them feel like they are the new kids that need to blindly follow tradition because a precise group of people demand their franchise to never change.
If they ever decide to remake a heroes 3 remake i would so welcome it and enjoy it! but this game moved on and H7 will definetely won't be a heroes 3 remake. despite the similarities it's in another universe.
How is the comparison uneven xD? You completely disregarded the Mario comparison because it was more convenient to you to ignore how both remakes of Super Mario Bros cashed in roughly 3x more sales numbers than Super Mario 3D Land, each. You claim there's "a bazillion new fans" (these are your words not mine) to X/Y because of innovation. How come we don't see it back in the numbers? I could compare X/Y to its older siblings, its sales numbers are still the least selling of all pokemon generations. Sure it's only a year or what old and there might be a few hundred thousand copies, possibly a million, to be sold but it's not suddenly going to triple in sales.
Putting all your cash on completely new fans is a very risky move. Try and cater to both audiences is fine but you can't give your older fanbase the finger trying to please a bigger crowd. The same crowd that could potentially reject you and then you'll be left empty-handed. There's a reason why the fans, as newcomers back then, started playing your games to begin with. Don't forget what made the formula a winning one and re-invent the wheel for a different game.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted October 04, 2014 08:42 PM |
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fuChris said:
And I disagree that the campaign is a one-time thing. It should not be. A well written campaign is like a good book. You put it down, but you know that sooner or later you are going to read it again and it is still going to sit on your shelf 10-20 years from now.
Guess which game I resinstalled for the 5th time when H7 was announced.
Heroes4.(cos H3 is never uninstalled you silly  ). Good stories make you feel part of the world and you will want to revisit them.
This would not be a problem if we had more games like Dark Messiah which carried the plot, but Dark Messiah is not the flagship of the Heroes franchise, M&M:Heroes 7 is. And as a flagship it does not have the luxury to come with half-assed story. It really is the future of the franchise that I am worried about.
You are totally right. 
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DarkLord
Supreme Hero
Fear me..
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posted October 04, 2014 10:44 PM |
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 04, 2014 11:23 PM |
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Things are pretty quite so far. Not much info we can talk about, just throwing preferences so far. We're short of intricacies that could make a difference. I'd really like to know more about the factions. Would be best if the devs'd post something soon about tactics/possible creatures and whatnot.
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted October 05, 2014 12:01 AM |
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I guess there will be some short lore text like last time. I don't expect any concept art except ones like we saw in discover fortress and discover sylvan articles.
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moonshade
Known Hero
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posted October 05, 2014 03:08 AM |
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3 alternate Dungeon line-ups (kudos to TeenValen)
1. Disciples of Malassa (dark elves, magic-oriented)
Core: Assassin / Blood Fury / Beholder
Elite: Witch / Minotaur / Chimera Rider
Champion: Black Dragon / Faceless
2. Army of Darkness (balanced/mix)
Core: Troglodyte / Assassin / Fellwyrm
Elite: Hydra / Minotaur / Witch
Champion: Black Dragon / Faceless
3. Fangs of Malassa (beasts, might-oriented)
Core: Troglodyte / Shadowcat / Beholder
Elite: Wurm / Chimera Rider / Minotaur
Champion: Black Dragon / Hydra
And similarly, for Inferno:
1. Fires of Sheogh (attack/speed oriented, fire damage emphasis)
Core: Imp / Hell Hound / Winged Fiend
Elite: Nightmare / Succubus / Pit Lord
Champion: Efreet / Devil
2. Chaos' Promise (special ability-oriented)
Core: Imp / Possessed / Hell Hound
Elite: Succubus / Efreet / Chaos Knight
Champion: Nephilim / Devil
3. Urgash's Brutality (might-oriented)
Core: Gog / Winged Fiend / Hell Hound
Elite: Juggernaught / Nightmare / Breeder
Champion: Pit Lord / Devil
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JeremiahEmo
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted October 05, 2014 09:23 AM |
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best possible Dungeon lineup.
Core:
1. Bandit - male, melee, turns invisible, can backstab other units dealing huge damage. Has a chance to steal small amounts of gold from non neutral opponents.
2. Troglodyte - it, basic melee damage dealer.
3. Witch - female, range, magical damage dealer that has a wide variety of buffs.
Elite:
4. Assassin - male, range, poisons opponents with every attack.
5. Evil Eye - it, melee, sucks opponent's blood dry and can paralyze certain opponents for short periods of turn.
6. Minotaur - male, heavy melee damage dealer. Has double attack and very sturdy.
Champion
7. Hydra - it, heavy tanker. Very sturdy unit and has the same skills as its H5 counterpart.
8. Faceless - male?, same capabilities as the one in H6.
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Alex_Yakub
Famous Hero
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posted October 05, 2014 09:40 AM |
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I don't think both bandit and assassin are needed. And I'm surprised you actually used a female unit for once Also, no black dragon? 
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 05, 2014 09:50 AM |
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Alex_Yakub said:
I don't think both bandit and assassin are needed. And I'm surprised you actually used a female unit for once Also, no black dragon?
And melee Evil Eye.
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Danny
Famous Hero
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posted October 05, 2014 10:13 AM |
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I hope both the Shadow Witch and the Hydra return but I defintely don't want the latter being a Champion next to the Black Dragon, that's a completely pointless setup and nobody would choose the Hydra.
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted October 05, 2014 10:40 AM |
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Danny said:
I hope both the Shadow Witch and the Hydra return but I defintely don't want the latter being a Champion next to the Black Dragon, that's a completely pointless setup and nobody would choose the Hydra.
Yes, the same way nobody would choose Treants over Emerald Dragons, right?
Well, I beg to differ.
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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Kronos1000
Promising
Supreme Hero
Fryslân Boppe
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posted October 05, 2014 10:52 AM |
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Provided that the first champion is the Black Dragon, the alternate champion would have to be something that has an entirely different role, such as a spellcaster or a shooter otherwise everybody would choose the Dragon. Faceless could also work as a champion at least it would feel different from the Black Dragon.
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Hwær cwom mearg? Hwær cwom mago?
Hwær cwom maþþumgyfa? - 'The Wanderer'
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 05, 2014 11:15 AM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 11:16, 05 Oct 2014.
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Royin said:
Putting all your cash on completely new fans is a very risky move. Try and cater to both audiences is fine but you can't give your older fanbase the finger trying to please a bigger crowd. The same crowd that could potentially reject you and then you'll be left empty-handed. There's a reason why the fans, as newcomers back then, started playing your games to begin with. Don't forget what made the formula a winning one and re-invent the wheel for a different game.
i never said they have to completely disregard old fans. and it's smth they are not doing(obviously).
but they fact that they don't cater exclusively to old fans is that new fans are way larger pool of people hence profit.
new players are a such a vast and diverse group of potential buyers that is almost certain that they are not going to be all disappointed at once.
so as you agree they have cater to both categories.
so while we have minotaurs, manticores, evil eyes, haven, druids, pixies, treants, djinns, golems, mages, titans, cyclops, factions, resource management, turn based battle, campaigns, crossover heroes, fantasy atmosphere, hotseat and so many other from way back when, we can afford to not have a unicorn or a black dragon.
those two (their absence) won't destroy the series.
i am trying to say that this game doesn't have to be a carbon copy of h3. it will have an h3 vibe and that's cool, but it doesn't have to be an exact copy to sell. we are past that. it's too late now. so lets move on.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted October 05, 2014 11:19 AM |
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ChrisD1 said:
we can afford to not have a unicorn or a black dragon.
No we can't
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted October 05, 2014 11:22 AM |
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Galaad said:
ChrisD1 said:
we can afford to not have a unicorn or a black dragon.
No we can't
But probably we'll get the blackies atleast. At the moment we already have the green dragon for sylvan so atleast we know that dragons are champion material instead of some demigod bosscreature.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 05, 2014 11:47 AM |
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Galaad said:
ChrisD1 said:
we can afford to not have a unicorn or a black dragon.
No we can't
-.-
if we are to have "butthurt bitter spoiled old fan: the sequel" i will so vote for the black dragons to avoid that. even if i want to see the faceless as champion since H6.
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This thread is pages long: 
