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drusain
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 27, 2015 08:37 PM |
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Something I was thinking about after I posted my earlier feedback was that when I wrote racial skills are too useful not to skill into them, it sort of really creates a conflict between the ability for a player to choose their own skills vs being able to be competitive. The truth is, in H7 (and this was generally true in H5 as well), if you are not boosting your faction skills, you are choosing to underperform.
I think it's clear that faction skills are here to stay, and would definitely appear in a H8 game. But does putting points in faction skills limit the player's ability to customize their hero?
I'm curious about what how people would respond if, say, faction skills were conferred naturally through levels. Say you get a faction skill every 3 levels up to level 15. That way, when you level, you can spend the points from your levels into however you want to customize your hero without having to spend points into abilities that honestly feel mandatory to have.
Good idea/bad idea?
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Kronos1000
Promising
Supreme Hero
Fryslân Boppe
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posted August 27, 2015 08:40 PM |
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Hello everyone,
It's been a while, but I would like to say that I do enjoy the new beta, although the loading times are a lot longer than the previous one. I think the game is looking pretty good, but I don't think it will reach the level of Heroes 3 or 5.
I also wanted to say that I have an extra beta key and no one to give it to yet. Send me an HCM if you want it!
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Hwær cwom mearg? Hwær cwom mago?
Hwær cwom maþþumgyfa? - 'The Wanderer'
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted August 27, 2015 08:48 PM |
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drusain said:
Something I was thinking about after I posted my earlier feedback was that when I wrote racial skills are too useful not to skill into them, it sort of really creates a conflict between the ability for a player to choose their own skills vs being able to be competitive. The truth is, in H7 (and this was generally true in H5 as well), if you are not boosting your faction skills, you are choosing to underperform.
I think it's clear that faction skills are here to stay, and would definitely appear in a H8 game. But does putting points in faction skills limit the player's ability to customize their hero?
I'm curious about what how people would respond if, say, faction skills were conferred naturally through levels. Say you get a faction skill every 3 levels up to level 15. That way, when you level, you can spend the points from your levels into however you want to customize your hero without having to spend points into abilities that honestly feel mandatory to have.
Good idea/bad idea?
That actually sounds like a good idea.
Skill affecting your faction creatures, perks giving bonuses to either your hero or global bonuses to creatures (so mixing creatures of other factions is more likely). Add some choice in each perk level.
Yeah, I could get into to that 
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted August 27, 2015 08:49 PM |
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faction skills do not only affect faction creatures. Which is fantastic  
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 27, 2015 09:45 PM |
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Damn these AI-turns take forever... fastest AI who is almost dead takes "only" around 50-60s. Other AIs take between 1 and 1,5min
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 27, 2015 09:59 PM |
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TD said:
Damn these AI-turns take forever... fastest AI who is almost dead takes "only" around 50-60s. Other AIs take between 1 and 1,5min
Yes, when not playing the small 2-player map, AI turns is a major issue. 
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What will happen now?
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted August 27, 2015 10:04 PM |
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1 AI shouldnt be using longer then 10 seconds in a turn...
6 AI in game= 1 minute turn wait.
so h7 ai needs to be 6 times faster...
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1 month till release  and we still get sound bugs etc etc aswell with this.
worrying 
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted August 27, 2015 10:10 PM |
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AI seems to be about as the slower H4 games i feel. It's better than H5, that's for certain. still, only a problem when you go up to 3 or 4 opponents.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 27, 2015 10:18 PM |
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Btw anybody have idea for how long games is academy racial ability for double spell-power meant to? I played as Minasli(the water specialist) and it seems quite rare that enemy (neutral or AI-player) has anything left after the first tsunami... It will kill usually around 40-70 elites worth(per stack)... I hired three Simurghs and killed everything with magic on the 8 player map... I played with everything on hard and during whole game recruited 12 gargoyles(early sacrificial pawns) and 3 simurghs... They now have over 400hp btw... Maybe the game still needs minor tweaking for balance 
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The_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted August 27, 2015 11:17 PM |
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What's the new meta magic do?
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted August 27, 2015 11:19 PM |
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Edited by kiryu133 at 23:25, 27 Aug 2015.
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The_green_drag said:
What's the new meta magic do?
complains about reused models
sometimes the amount of spells/spellschools
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted August 27, 2015 11:24 PM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 23:28, 27 Aug 2015.
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kiryu133 said:
The_green_drag said:
What's the new meta magic do?
complains about reused models
Haha, a good one.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 27, 2015 11:44 PM |
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The_green_drag said:
What's the new meta magic do?
It allows you to use magic on novice/expert/master level once you gather 3/6/10 meta-points(it will take essentially 3 to 5 turns to get 10 meta-points depending skills). I believe this is why they re-worked the magic-spells too. In reality academy became weakest faction in terms of racial because of it(other factions get extra turns for troops or major damage boosts and stuff like that). To learn level 4 spells you now need to get 2 magic-schools in order to get enough some arcane points too. So basically you will have 3 skills chosen just to use racial. It feels the most limited racial in terms of what skills you "can" choose in my mind. If they at least allowed learning level 4 spell if you master a school it would already be better and just add the new system on top of that(old system).
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Gameslayer989
Known Hero
Always looking for a fight!
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posted August 28, 2015 12:42 AM |
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Metamagic does at least synergises well with their paragon tree. The eagle eye/wisdom trait allows you to use every non-tier 4 spell, and the ultimate ability allows you to use every spell at master rank provided you have 3 metamagic. Add the first tier metamagic ability which causes your ballista to give you 1 bonus metamagic and you have every non-tier 4 spell at master rank on the second round of combat. This leads to a devastating rush and ridiculous creeping as your hero only needs to be level 7 to do this and thus attain mastery in every spell. You can then move into a specific school of magic, and once you finish it you have every tier 4 spell as well. Yeah the actual metamagic tree seems pretty bad, but basic metamagic is an incredibly powerful effect on its own... not as powerful as some combos mind you...
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 28, 2015 01:49 AM |
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Gameslayer989 said:
Metamagic does at least synergises well with their paragon tree. The eagle eye/wisdom trait allows you to use every non-tier 4 spell, and the ultimate ability allows you to use every spell at master rank provided you have 3 metamagic. Add the first tier metamagic ability which causes your ballista to give you 1 bonus metamagic and you have every non-tier 4 spell at master rank on the second round of combat. This leads to a devastating rush and ridiculous creeping as your hero only needs to be level 7 to do this and thus attain mastery in every spell. You can then move into a specific school of magic, and once you finish it you have every tier 4 spell as well. Yeah the actual metamagic tree seems pretty bad, but basic metamagic is an incredibly powerful effect on its own... not as powerful as some combos mind you...
I take it you tried this out then? I was going to till I realize that even if I get the double spell power for low spell-power you are still stuck at low-power. You only get +2 from paragon-skill doubles the power. Essentially you will cast your spells at some 5-6 power. And in long-term you will be stuck with the paragon when you really start needing the extra spell-power for which other schools are much better.
It's the wisdom skills that really give you the power + the mana-reductions(you will seriously run out of mana without prime anyhow) and you will want the added damage/effects from abilities(the basic spells aren't that good). You might as well go for more narrow path and go for example water + luck + minasli as hero and you do ton more damage.(besides at least on hard with just water-magic you can clear any camps on minasli except gargoyles)
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Gameslayer989
Known Hero
Always looking for a fight!
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posted August 28, 2015 03:09 AM |
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Quote:
I take it you tried this out then? I was going to till I realize that even if I get the double spell power for low spell-power you are still stuck at low-power. You only get +2 from paragon-skill doubles the power. Essentially you will cast your spells at some 5-6 power. And in long-term you will be stuck with the paragon when you really start needing the extra spell-power for which other schools are much better.
It's the wisdom skills that really give you the power + the mana-reductions(you will seriously run out of mana without prime anyhow) and you will want the added damage/effects from abilities(the basic spells aren't that good). You might as well go for more narrow path and go for example water + luck + minasli as hero and you do ton more damage.(besides at least on hard with just water-magic you can clear any camps on minasli except gargoyles)
Oh yeah I agree with just 2 or 3 more levels you could have made many different combo's that would be better than the one I described, but those 2 or 3 levels might make all the difference on a tiny maps. Other than that though I cannot really defend it, but it was fun having such flexibiltiy so fast. Mentoring is nice to have as well I guess? Perhaps makes a nice scout hero that can creep well with just 1 or 2 units in total? Yeah I'm not really feeling it.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted August 28, 2015 04:29 AM |
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Soo I was wondering. What is the general opinion on the new Magic system, and spell gaining, introduuced in this beta?
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 28, 2015 04:58 AM |
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Edited by TD at 05:08, 28 Aug 2015.
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@Dave the change in magic-system would have been good if it was done to work alongside with the old system IMO(not replace it completely as they did). Now you can't even master level 4 spells without getting at least 2nd skill for enough arcane points. It also seemingly weakened academy, taking it's unique 2nd hero turn away and sharing it with everybody(moved to prime). You will still need essentially at least 2 magic schools learned as academy or you will be lacking spell-power. And since spell-schools are so similar, especially without having extra abilities the new academy racial falls kinda short. Also you can buff the spells to insane lengths, I played on academy water hero and won every pve/pvp battle without losses by just spamming tsunami(which killed around 40-70 elites per stack) or in some cases to save mana(single or duo of enemies) I used ice-bold which at times could cause something like 3-4k damage when everything worked in my favor. In general from 2 games I played(dungeon and academy), every battle is the same(on dark I spammed spell x, on water I spammed spell y, on prime spell z...) Overall I'd say the game still has miles to go when it comes to balancing and even then we are nowhere near the finish-line. Also as said before, diversity is desperately need for magic-schools.
Gaining spells essentially stayed the same between demo and this beta. Also IMO every faction should have their racial magic school and favoured magic schools level 4 spell. Just give academy extra compared to them, heck even two for all I care(or for example chance to change spell in MG for price). What really irks me even more is that Academy has scrolls they can't use to learn spells, but yet many cost up to 4k while dungeon can get real artifacts for cheaper...(that can include spells no less!)
Edit: Almost forgot, the adventure-map buildings that give spells are nice addition. I just wish they didn't tell before-hand what they offer, it ruins the surprise and excitement for me. Same goes for other map-objects all the same. If I need to fight some dozen shantiri titans and half thousand golems for couple scrolls and useless item, you can guess if I'm willing to go to such place unless it's for exp(given that artifacts are worthless also if you sell them).
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keldaur
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 28, 2015 06:01 AM |
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The_Green_Drag said:
cleglaw said:
The_Green_Drag said:
Surprise surprise, the lack of unit variety is catching up 
Sitting back and shooting is pretty much the go to strategy since they set you up so well for it. Pick faction --> Get core shooter --> get elite shooter --> go nutz.
creeping is so easy it's just annoying  All strategy has left.
i dont agree. i fully disagree even. this(h7 beta2) is the most healthy heroes game about "ranged vs melee".
before, it was the way you described, upgrade shooters, rush shooter production and dont even lose single one unit during fights with neutral(heck maybe even againts acctual enemy lol) sorry but despite my love of h3, h5, they both were like this and unhealthy as snow.
1-now we have mixed nautrals consisting both shooters and melees.
2-shooters are not that much effective to put down one stack immediatly to "useless", due to the improved, tested, fixed stats we have.
result? now i love how we think more and more to keep our loses minimum as much as possible (since we will eventually lose some of them nearly %100 of time) and i love how different fight setups it creates for me to enjoy the variety.
...
i cant be more disagreeing ith you, are we even playing same game? i suspect!
I can't speak for H5 but in H3 there were factions with weak shooters. Fortress and Inferno having only one, tier 2 shooter. Necro had only one, although liches rock. Heck even rampart only had one. Point is, some faction's were made around unit placement and making the right moves and not giving a damn about ranged units. In h7, each faction has it's own elite shooter and core shooter (expect Necro, no core) which is why I can play the same easy strategy with every faction. And that shouldn't be the case at all, the unit variety is just extremely lacking.
Saying that it is "ranged versus melee" IS the problem. I'm yet to see any fast moving fliers that can move across the board and block the shooter (and maybe get destroyed in the process but it's worth it sometimes). Flier's are apart of the game, and the faction's play too similar without them. H6 had a similar problem and their line ups all felt the same.
I keep coming across this same kind of battlefield with two obstacles in the middle making it a narrow 4 tiles pathway between the armies. All I have to do, with any faction, is block the 4 tile path by putting a large creature in the middle, and sit back and shoot. Works everytime if the enemy is a bunch of large creatures.
I took down a bunch of swordmasters with my elven archers and a few moon doe that didn't even need to attack, only be a meat shield.
Dungeon's strenght isn't on its shooters, i can promise you that. Stalkers are pretty bad (and assassins are pretty good later on).
Sylvans can do it because of the hero giving them no range penalties at lvl 3.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 28, 2015 07:45 AM |
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@Keldaur While I agree dungeon strength isn't shooters(since racial is essentially for melee), the stalkers are actually very good. In fact they were the only unit I ever needed as dungeon to clear out the map(well them and dark magic). Roughly for the first two months I used them exclusively(I had the extra building for extra assasins though and they were only half-range for me). I'll admit though that it's more about the hero than about the units, the game just encourages you to choose a tactic and just spam it for the rest of the game afterwards IMO(no incentive to really ever change anything).
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