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Svartzorn
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posted January 06, 2016 04:58 PM |
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It is philosophy the owes its modern development to christianity, LOL.
The legacy of philosophy was owned by christians now for almost 1800 years. And we have to come and see this guy talking about how christianity owes a lot to philosophy.
I grant that CATHOLICS do owe a lot to philosophy, not the True Church of Christ.
Orthodoxy has taken part in philosophy, but it has never been led astray as the westerners have, preserving a deep and broad mystical tradition that occupies its core.
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Death to the world.
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Drakon-Deus
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Qapla'
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posted January 06, 2016 05:10 PM |
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Svartzorn is correct. I do not think the Orthodox have a lot to do with other philosophy.
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Homer171
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posted January 06, 2016 06:05 PM |
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True, true 
If i remember correctly, christians where often labeled as philosophers as they gave life more meaning than obvious jobs or social status gave you. It's even same today, when somebody says to me: "You think too much Homer." Yes, well we all should  Not everyone is interested in pondering difficult things in life but I found myself do just that, when alone somewhere, you find your brain constantly working; why, how, what, when.. We are pretty complex, I like that
Other what we christian where called before was atheist. Now should the atheist today be grateful as 'we took the bullet' back then? It was hideous crime and lot of times it end up in executions. Thankfully world has changed and the 'only real religion' nowdays is the atheist. I mean, you aren't even intellectual human being if you are not atheist. Nothing against atheist personally but atheism is not for my liking obviously.
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Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
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Zenofex
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posted January 06, 2016 07:30 PM |
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Quote:
It is philosophy the owes its modern development to christianity, LOL.
Sentences like that make me wonder whether their author have successfully graduated high school. Christianity as a systematic religion doesn't even exist before IV century while philosophy's roots - even if we talk only about the Greek philosophy which is by far not the only one (and internally isn't homogeneous) - can be traced 5 centuries before the birth of Jesus, when some Jews were still considered to be polytheists and very little of what you currently call "Christianity" existed, even as a foetus. You'll do well to get acquainted with the medieval Church's treatment of philosophy and philosophers' works before generously dropping bombs of ignorance like the one above.
@Homer, can you describe what you believe in without formulating it subjectively and objectively (at least)? What will your god be worth to you if you can't give him/her/it at least one comprehensible quality?
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JollyJoker
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posted January 06, 2016 07:57 PM |
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I wonder why confusion/confused is sounding so similar to Confucius
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Homer171
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posted January 06, 2016 08:30 PM |
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Zenofex what are you trying to ask? It's like a question, describe your marriage what's it's for and why, and don't use words like love.
If you do know what aim beliaving at, God of the Bible, the Son of God, Jesus Christ. Don't go asking what aim beliaving not subjectly or objectly because it's beside the point.
There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is.
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Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
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Homer171
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posted January 06, 2016 08:34 PM |
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Jolly stop being so confused already and make a conviction already 
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Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
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Neraus
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posted January 06, 2016 08:44 PM |
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Zenofex said:
Quote:
It is philosophy the owes its modern development to christianity, LOL.
Sentences like that make me wonder whether their author have successfully graduated high school. Christianity as a systematic religion doesn't even exist before IV century while philosophy's roots - even if we talk only about the Greek philosophy which is by far not the only one (and internally isn't homogeneous) - can be traced 5 centuries before the birth of Jesus[...]
I'm on a hurry, but effectively, he said modern philosophy, not ancient philosophy, unless Plato is a modern philosopher.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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JollyJoker
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posted January 06, 2016 08:45 PM |
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Do I have to do more than pointing to Confucius when it comes to Christianity and philosophy?
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Zenofex
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posted January 06, 2016 09:34 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 21:35, 06 Jan 2016.
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Homer171 said:
Zenofex what are you trying to ask? It's like a question, describe your marriage what's it's for and why, and don't use words like love.
If you do know what aim beliaving at, God of the Bible, the Son of God, Jesus Christ. Don't go asking what aim beliaving not subjectly or objectly because it's beside the point.
There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is.
Well, try to explain what is Son of God if you can't explain what is God. Can you? And by the way marriage can be explained in a thousand ways without mentioning love even once, pretty poor analogy.
Quote:
he said modern philosophy, not ancient philosophy, unless Plato is a modern philosopher.
He's wrong on multiple accounts even if he means that - philosophy stretches beyond Plato and the rest of the ancient Greeks and whatever development the philosophy has had since the ancient times has been mostly in spite of the religion and not because of it. Christians typically fall victims to one of the Eurocentrism derivatives that survived the classical colonial age - to think that their (your) religion and everything associated with it is the only religion worth mentioning while in fact all the Abrahamic religions combined worth around half of the world's population tops.
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artu
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posted January 06, 2016 09:52 PM |
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Edited by artu at 21:56, 06 Jan 2016.
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Neraus said:
Zenofex said:
Quote:
It is philosophy the owes its modern development to christianity, LOL.
Sentences like that make me wonder whether their author have successfully graduated high school. Christianity as a systematic religion doesn't even exist before IV century while philosophy's roots - even if we talk only about the Greek philosophy which is by far not the only one (and internally isn't homogeneous) - can be traced 5 centuries before the birth of Jesus[...]
I'm on a hurry, but effectively, he said modern philosophy, not ancient philosophy, unless Plato is a modern philosopher.
Still, it's a blatantly wrong argument. Even if you limit yourself to post-ancient Europe, there are two major cultural lines of influence (not isolated from each other, of course) that affected medieval life: The Greco-Roman heritage and Christianity. When it comes to philosophy, it would be sensible to say the effect of Ancient Greece was in the manner of helping, for example, the Scholastics were trying to modify the systematic thoughts of Aristotales and Platon into the Christan dogma. But the very obvious influence of Christianity was not necessarily a help, it was mostly a hinderance as any dogmatic thought's would be. And it was only with reform and later the Enlightenment, Western philosophy actually flourished. That is, when the Church got WEAKER.
Of course, times were different then and most philosophers who lived in 17th or 18th century such as Descartes or Kant, label themselves as Christians. But there is usually not a direct, organic causality between their line of thought and the religious dogma. Had Konstantin picked another religion and had Kant somehow been born a Buddhist with an alternative chain of events, with some slight modifications, he would probably still be Kant.
The reason Europe got ahead in not just philosophy but also in science, economy, technology etc has, of course, not so much to do with religion. You have other regions with Christian zones and the result is never the same, it's not even close. It's quite a sophisticated matter with so many factors inter-developing according to each other, but most importantly, it's about decentralized authority. (And that involves even geography.)
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Svartzorn
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Dead struggling with death.
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posted January 06, 2016 10:23 PM |
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Zenofex never heard of Origen, Saint Augustine... I'm not even quoting other names. He probably never heard of the development of the scholastic philosophy. It's not me who has to go back to HS.
Stop making a fool of yourself, man.
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Death to the world.
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Neraus
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posted January 06, 2016 10:25 PM |
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Edited by Neraus at 22:26, 06 Jan 2016.
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artu said:
Had Konstantin picked another religion and had Kant somehow been born a Buddhist with an alternative chain of events, with some slight modifications, he would probably still be Kant.
No, not at all, every man is a son of his time, Kant (If I recall correctly) once posited an objection to Saint Anselm of Canterbury's Ontological Proof of God, had Kant been a Buddhist living in another place he wouldn't have posited the same objection.
If he still was a philosopher, what we do is a result of our environment, our thought is shaped by what we witness, there is no determined project of our life.
If Kostantin were to have chosen a different religion we'd probably had a significant delay in Christianity's spread, but probably the barbarians could have still theoretically adopted the Christian religion.
But what if scenarios are useless, that's like entertaining the thought of a still free Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, I think that it would have saved Germany and Austria from their defeat in WWI, but who can tell I'm right and not just a deluded nationalist?
artu said:
Still, it's a blatantly wrong argument. Even if you limit yourself to post-ancient Europe, there are two major cultural lines of influence (not isolated from each other, of course) that affected medieval life: The Greco-Roman heritage and Christianity. When it comes to philosophy, it would be sensible to say the effect of Ancient Greece was in the manner of helping, for example, the Scholastics were trying to modify the systematic thoughts of Aristotales and Platon into the Christan dogma. But the very obvious influence of Christianity was not necessarily a help, it was mostly a hinderance as any dogmatic thought's would be. And it was only with reform and later the Enlightenment, Western philosophy actually flourished. That is, when the Church got WEAKER.
If anything that is called adapting a tried and true method, Aristotle's logic was an instrument, and as an instrument it was used, especially since at the time there were no better means and if it ain't broke don't fix it.
And there were certain theories that resonated with the theologian's mind, like the concept of the immobile motor (ANGLO-SAXON LANGUAGE BE DAMNED!).
The oppressive Christianity developed the greatest artists we'll probably never have again, I've yet to see artists reach the highs of the great painters of the Renaissance.
Especially when Catholicism (according to the common knowledge) reached it's most oppressive point with the Counter Reform, we've had among the most marvellous works of art.
The original Humanism flourished in that Catholic "hell hole", the real first spurt of Capitalism and Liberalism was born there, oppressed not by the Church, but by the French and the Germans.
And by the way the best brothels were in the Papal States.
@Svartzorn
Do you have any books of the first Christian philosophers by chance? I'd like to expand my library, and I'd like some advice.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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Drakon-Deus
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Qapla'
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posted January 06, 2016 10:39 PM |
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Great names there Svartzorn. And for Neraus too I would add Gregory of Nazianzus (also known as Gregory the Theologian), Saint Basil the Great, John Chrysostom, Gregory of Nyssa, to name a few of the important Early Church Fathers...
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artu
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posted January 06, 2016 10:54 PM |
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@Neraus
It's not a "what if" story in the sense that I remodel him according to Buddhism. I'm simply emphasizing that Kant did not originate his reasoning in the Bible. To a degree, philosophical thought is influenced by environmental (cultural) feedback but what actually constitutes it, is the structure of the reasoning behind. And his reasoning is not explicitly Christian. What makes Kant matter, what separates him from some theologian who's work is only relevant to faithful Christians, has almost nothing to do with his cultural identity, just like we have zero interest if Platon believed Zeus threw around thunderbolts. An overlap is not necessarily causality. Art is a little different, since the outcome is not only about the analytical structure, "the body of work," but also about how it relates to your subjective taste and world view which is extremely relevant to what captivates you. Needless to say, not only Christianity has monuments of great artistic value, though. Renaissance art is exceptionally great, no objection there, but its universality doesn't come from its religiosity.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted January 06, 2016 11:01 PM |
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"What you do not wish for yourself, do not do to others."
-Confucious
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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Drakon-Deus
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Qapla'
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posted January 06, 2016 11:08 PM |
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Yes, Minion. And with Christianity it's "Do to others what you would want them to do to you"... but how many have followed either of them? Not too many...
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Neraus
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posted January 06, 2016 11:30 PM |
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@artu
I mentioned Renaissance art as an example of how Christianity wasn't as oppressive as flaunted.
The other point is that Kant's line of reasoning couldn't have been the same if he didn't live as the historical Kant, if you were just changing his religion, I would be more inclined to agree, but since you posited another chain of events the result wouldn't be the same. Now I see that you were talking about how he doesn't derive his philosophy from Christianity, but the point you miss is that he is tangentially related to Christianity, even if there is no causality they still dabbled in the previous philosophy, as I said, if only to criticize it, and so there is a relation.
The amount in which we measure how much Christianity contributed to the development of modern philosophy may be debated, but it did contribute.
The what if scenario was in regards to Constantine not adopting Christianity by the way.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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AlexSpl
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posted January 06, 2016 11:41 PM |
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Religion is just the brake that postponed *the now*. People tend to believe that they are not alone, comforting themselves that there is an instance that can control this world. Moreover, if this *faith* is official, they usually become mad. Poor men.
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Drakon-Deus
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Qapla'
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posted January 07, 2016 01:35 AM |
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I think you don't need religion to be mad. Or to be sane. It is seen differently by almost every other person, and most of my friends never cared about it in the slightest.
It was good for me to read all I wanted on the subject, on the internet, though.
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