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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Let's make our OWN HOMM game! "Heroes Infinity"
Thread: Let's make our OWN HOMM game! "Heroes Infinity" This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV
valgaav
valgaav


Adventuring Hero
posted March 18, 2017 02:13 PM

LucPatenaude said:

There is nothing in 2d graphics that are modern anymore. Get with the Windows 10+ era will ya! It is Direct X 11 and 12 only or, total bust.

I said VCMI is a modern 2d engine. I'm not going to talk about 2d generally, if it is modern or not. 3d is clearly better for most of games. However clearly there is still a niche for 2d games. Strategies are one genere that really doesn't gain much from using 3d over 2d.

Quote:

This 32 bit compatibility thingie ain't cutting it, bub! Must stick to 64 bit and 3D resolutions.

Vcmi can be compiled for both 32bit and 64bit, or even other CPU architectures.

Anyway you forget that community driven project will most likely not give the best possible graphics, that will compete with commercial games. That is how it is.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Famous Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted March 18, 2017 11:44 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 23:46, 18 Mar 2017.

Quote:
but my point was exactly as you stated yourself, you need someone in charge of the various parts to make a final decision. Either that or you go democratic and let the majority decide. Though you could still encounter obstacles if someone has to design something which goes against their opinion. That's the major downside of these volunteer projects and also the fact, that you don't sit face to face, being able to sort things out that way.
}

Your thoughts are very true and I also think the same way. If the programmer disagrees with something that he has to program, how to resolve? Simply, he has to start with the project knowing who decides on the design.

I proposed as such an hybrid approach:
- One project leader to determine which goes "in" and "out" of game design (which I didn't want to be, and would still prefer not to be, but people aren't queueing for the post apparently...)
- Polls to determine on non-core mechanics stuff (such as the number of creatures, what faction we add next, etc.)
Who decides which is a core mechanic or not? The project leader.
Of course the input of the programmer will be important, but I think it's cautious to keep these posts separate - One is the Engineer, the other the Technician, and of course we have the Community.

Quote:
If your biggest issue right now, is the lack of a programmer, perhaps you'd have more luck attracting one, if you can show you already have other team members in place, which are able to fill out the other tasks. Like others suggested previously, the more work you can show off, the easier it might be to attract others interested in helping out.


You mean already starting with concept art and creative direction, for example?
It's not a bad idea...

Quote:
One programmer alone won't be enough, I can help you with my (although limited) programming knowledge. At the moment I'm pretty busy with other things, but as soon as I get more free time I can contribute something.



What I meant was a "lead" programmer that tyackles the more code-heavy parts of the game. Of course others will be able to contribute to the code and scripting as well.

I myself am learning LUA right now by modding "Warhammer 40.000: Dawn of War - Soulstorm"
I have already made a mod. I can't say I am very confident in my abilities but it's something :v

(click for larger)




Quote:
What I recommend is using Unreal Engine, it's open source, it's relatively easy to use for level design (even for non-programmers), it's a professional standard already, also you can compile the C++ code directly into machine code and provide the so needed speed a heroes game needs for complex calculations (complex AI algorithms, PBR and more room for algorithms that aren't exactly as optimized as they could be).


Perhaps, it was one of my ideas, but the Heroes 7 having made in Unreal Engine 3 and turning out so buggy and poor performance brings serious doubts...

Quote:
First, what it's needed, is a skeleton for a heroes-like game, then we can talk about factions and such.


You idea is opposite to that of Karmakeld, though :V
Although on the other side, Erwan started with concepts and designs, then the game code was made secondary. Not sure if he is a good model to follow, lol, but I think games naturally start with concepts, concept art and design, and only then code...
The appearance of "game just waiting to happen", as karmakeld says, may draw in talent.

________________________________________

Now, there's the whole VCMI debate that sprouted, and 2D/3D debate with that...

VCMI has some shortcomings, its made for Heroes 3 to begin with. Implementing non-heroes 3 mechanics will thus be hard.
I am not so concerned about 2D but about the lack of 2.5D
In game like Heroes 4 (disometric), gratures and heroes have combat facings, etc. In Heroes 3 they can only look front and back - It's completely 2D, like older video games (for example arcade).

I could live with Isometric game functionality (which could be implemented in maps in VCMI, even if it costs a bit because of the tiles being not in persppective but just a square matrix - yes Isometric objects can be used in it and have proven to work just fine), but completely 2D battles (for which we probably have to use 3D models like HoTA anyways if not ripping sprites) seem to be a buzzkiller.

Even so, I don't completely discard it, I just say it's a bit hard to take it as something finished just waiting for the game to be made in it. It has a good base for game mechanics, and is stable, that's for sure. But what are the hopes of making Isometric battles on it?
On what language is it scripted on?

______________________________________

Another thing that bugs me is simultaneous turns. If anything turns off new people these days from multiplayer Heroes games is "having to wait for the other person to have their turn", specially when online. People don't want to wait any more (unless it's a cell phone game that gives you "credits per hour" or something like that to keep you addicted with small doses and not saturated).
So having two or more people have the turn at the same time seems to be a compromise between TBS which we all like and something modern.
Specially waiting for the other person to finish all their battles (which in H3 doesn't count towards time turn limit) is particularly egregious.

Sim turns could be turned on or off if you are an "oldschool" gamer.
I am sure they can be achieved with Unreal Engine. Not so much from VCMI, or they would have implemented already... (I found this thread about it from 2012 that says not impossible, but to my knowledge hasn't been implemented yet)

Modern game mechanics to suit current playstyle trends is more important than 2d vs 3d graphics. Creature Quest has 2D graphics (which are completely 2D to my knowledge) and is a modern game. So do many other flash/android/ipad/tablet/iphone games.
People don't hate on 2D. What they hate is an outdated "feel" to gaming and graphics. As long as 2D graphics are fresh (not looking like 80's sprites) and with nice UI effects, they will like it (old UI style is another problem with VCMI for this).
________________________________

So to sum up my knowledge and opinion on this controversy:

- Modern look and feel is more important than 2d/3d
- Isometric is necessary at least I feel, but full 3D not so much.
- Even if we do 2D, we will probably have to render 3D models into sprites anyways.
- VCMI is moderately good for game mechanics, but would need a lot of work to make it a "Modern" Heroes games and not a Heroes 3 reimplementation.
- Unreal Engine is a nice alternative, but we would have to write all the mechanics ourselves (considering it's UE4 and not UE3, not even the ones from H7 will be of use... not that it's sane to want to use that buggy code anyways)

Not decided just yet, just putting those points there to keep debating the issue and have answers
Such as: could VCMI sections be rewritten for isometric battles/maps? Can it's UI effects be upgraded?
And others like: Which programming language and codes does VCMI and Unreal Engine use for their extensions? (surely Internet would say, but it's best to have it written here form people that know firsthand)
What really bugs me of VCMI is being forced to make a kinf of H3 bad clone, and then people complaining not living up to the ortiginal, instead of doing something new and exciting. >THis on my minds is the greatest problem. As such if it can't handle cool modern things like dynamic UI, isometric perspective and sim turns, there's not much point in it being for a new game... Perfect for Heroes 3, but not for 20 years later. If anything we could make more mods. Yet, if it can (with changes of course), it is worth considering.

I am open to hearing other engine alternatives of open source that can be applied to turn-based strategy.
____________
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LucPatenaude
LucPatenaude


Famous Hero
MMH7's R.M.G is really welcome
posted March 19, 2017 02:16 PM

Here is an undeniable fact about the use of the 64 bit mode.

It is no longer reserved to merely processing power.

The CPU is no longer in control of the many functions of all units of within the PC case.

Case in point: My processor die is an FX-6300 AMD 6 cores with an aging 2009 device driver for every processor core of it all.

All other chipsets on the mainboard and graphics card have reached February and March 2017 in level of device programming.

The only problem is: Both the optical drive and Hard Disk Drive have not received a single device driver update/upgrade since the standard one given automatically by my Windows 10's O.S. update(Version 1607 and beyond). My O.S. has been 64 bit ever since Windows 6.1(7) in 2009(8 years ago).

What is out-most troubling is: Microsoft is planning a major upgrade in how an O.S. should be configuring our new and old multi-core PCs. Now, my intuition is that these devs are definitely working on the next generation of an Operating System(even replacing the onboard Bios). The imminent implementation of the 128 bit mode.

Since the world wide launch of the AMD's latest Z processor dies along the socket AM4 that goes hand in hand with the DDR4 chipsets, processing power could reach the 5 Ghz in processing abilities for all cores of the same die. So, obviously, 128 bit mode comes to mind and, quite possibly, 256 bit as well. Now, both hardware and software(mainly the internet browsers will be able to jive in perfect harmony). Mind you that, 512 bit browsers might come out hot within the next 5 years or so.

Expect my most frustrating side to all of this huge hardware and software progress. No more 32 bit programming will ever be backward compatible, ever again. All of my 32 bit games down the sewer drain but one. Unbelievable that would seem, only our Heroes 7 game might survive this ordeal, for the next 5 years or so.

10 years from now, no more keyboards and mice to use and, just like the tablets, the camera + microphone will be built-in features of most computer monitors/TVs.

All of this predictions of mine are seriously educated guesses and speculations that will undoubtly have a real happening in those next 10 years(decade).

Therefore, programmers have to adapt and readjust their coding abilities/capabilities in order to tackle this severe set of changes coming our ways. Who is to mainly blame for this severe forwarding of changes: The millenials and, of course, the pure 100% 21 century bound new young adults(27 years old in 10 years from now - 2027).

Also, expect planet Mars to be bulging colony of at least 10 million inhabitants by 2037(a mere 20 years from now).

OK. Enough with my godhood predictions. I wonder what kind of changes will happen in your modding minds upon reading this article like post.


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olorin
olorin


Adventuring Hero
tophatchild.blogspot.com
posted March 19, 2017 03:44 PM

@LucPatenaude

I read carefully, I mean CAREFULLY every post within my range of interest in HC and to be honest I've never understood what are you talkin' about man

You're an interesting dude though.
____________
Top Hat Child dixit: http://tophatchild.blogspot.com.es/

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valgaav
valgaav


Adventuring Hero
posted March 19, 2017 08:54 PM
Edited by valgaav at 20:55, 19 Mar 2017.

@Nimostar:

VCMI adventure map can be (semi) isometric view without code changes. It's just that most of h3 objects were not in that view. However you can do it if you make new objects that way :
Example from my project :




If you really want full isometric view with changing the squares to h4 like then this would require code change in VCMI. IMHO though it isn't needed.

As for battlefields personally I'm doing it with Vcmi way with properly adjusting perspective in backround on battlefields:



However if I had a choice I would most likely would like to do it like this h3 chinese clone :


Full grid change to something a bit more modern then hexes. That however requires code changes in VCMI.

As for sim turns. Vcmi doesn't have working multiplayer ATM. I can bet they would eagerly accept sim turns code, and I remember that one of the devs said that sim turns were planned.  Only It's just that no one from their team works on it ATM, as there are other things to do.

Same for UI, only adventure map UI is configurable and allows for example moving minimap to different position. Then again I can bet adding configurability to other windows would also be welcomed by the team.   It is open source so with code changes anything is possible.  VCMI is C++ and uses SDL libraries for rendering 2d graphics.

The choice will mainly depend on what your programmer will want to do. When and if one arrives here . He/she might have his/her own ideas.

As for other alternatives there is also https://sourceforge.net/projects/fheroes2/. But I believe that h3 engine reimplementation is more modern and will require less changes then h2 engine reinplementation.


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dredknight
dredknight


Promising
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted March 19, 2017 09:49 PM
Edited by dredknight at 07:18, 21 Mar 2017.

Hey everyone! I want to congratulate you for the very nice thread you are making here on HC! I went through all the pages in one breath.

I would like to share a thought or two as well so here it goes!

THE THESIS
Some time ago I was also thinking about an open source Heroes-like game brought to life by the community. I believe we have everything we need to make the project come to life... in theory.

What we lack is the practice to try. I mean how many people did try to make a heroes like game alone? I dont mean anything cutting edge, just some black and white dots fighting with each other on a battlefield. Just for fun? If you want something you need to try.  Enough with the philosophy and more with the story.

PROGRAMMING AND HOW MUCH OF IT DO WE NEED?
First and foremost I go by as a senior system administrator). My field of knowledge goes around things likes coding (bash, ruby, C/C++, python), Server and Desktop virtualization, corporate monitoring, backup solutions and other stuff like this. The stuff I do, I never learned them anywhere(or get tutored by anyone). There was a niche and there was my desire to give it a try.

A few months ago I decided to try Unity engine I went through the basic lessons (and not much past). What I found out is that the codding skills needed to make a game, once you have a decent engine are really funny. By no means I want to say there wont be a lot of code. In theory a heroes game will be vast amounts of code but what I mean is that it is not that complex to get around. Taking it as granted (from the opinions here) I believe that Unreal 4 engine will be even easy to grasp.

For the time I had the fight with Unity I found that it is not the code that matters but the sequence of elements you build and the conventions you create to make your life easier (how do you arrange all the texts, pics, and game-mechanics files, you need to chose one abstract slice and go with it till the end, knowing its benefits and disadvantages prior begining)

A mere example, if we are going to build 8 towns, the programmer needs to create just 1 and use it as a blueprint, for second, third,..., tenth, eleventh etc..

Another example from things I see in a corporate environment.
When it comes to coding skills an excellent programmer can out work 50 average ones. It is not because he works 50 times more but because he uses his wits to counter code issues unexperienced coders will be fighting with (not to mention is that issues multiply with the time if not taken care of, just like Might heroes strength snowballs after month 3).

So I pretty much think the game is doable if you know what you do.

THE AI

When talking about programming the second thing which is just as important as molding the game engine is the AI. Since this year I am digging into this in my free time and I found the following.
It is going to be easier to build a neural network (a.k.a. what google does with AI)

Why because it is actually easier to make an A.I. instead of putting down huge lines of code that force push 10-15 best combinations. The old school option require a lot of hand work which will be really a lots and lots of code because you are typing in bes-fit playstyle combos. On the other hand with the AI we will be working only with lets called them learning equations that will be generated by playtesting the AI and every next time the AI play a game it will be actually better then before.

PROCESS OF CREATION

A lot of stuff were said in this thread about people with possibilities to contribute in different areas - coding, design, lore. But does anyone knows how they fit together in practice?

From what I have seen by some names like Blizzard Starcraft 2 and Firaxis games X-COM and X-COM2 - it all first start with the game engine and I dont mean something like Unreal 4 or Unity but a framework build for the game that allows you to make all things in game do whatever they are supposed to do. Before you have a good framework you cant even begin. So artists and lore practitioners will come a bit later into the game.

Once we have a good enough framework actually the process of game making becomes easier( and more enjoyable) not because the work is less but because you can actually see some progress (adding visuals to the mechanics, stuff starting to move!). So I believe this project should start with little steps in order to grow big.

A brief mini project list should go something like this:

1. Make decision on core game mechanics
2. find a few good progarmers (1-3 should do).
3. Evaluate engines - find the one that will make all things in point 1. possible but is also the easiest to learn (probably Unreal 4 though).
4. Make the game framework tech tree (based on the chosen engine).
Here code guys will:
- make text/pic/mechanic folder trees. Basically where files will reside and how they will be accessed.
- make a PoC items (one very simple basic thing of everything - town, unit, adventure board)
- make a PoC functionality (making of actions - commands, engagements , pickable objects, building action, turn pass etc..)
- decide on code architecture
...

A lot of stuff I can say here but I prefer to stop as this became way too longer then it was originally supposed to.

FINAL THOUGHTS
If you want something just try. It will probably never happen as expect but extraordinary things may happen, you never know...

P.S.
valgaav said:

However if I had a choice I would most likely would like to do it like this h3 chinese clone :


Full grid change to something a bit more modern then hexes. That however requires code changes in VCMI.



This looks great!

____________
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted March 22, 2017 05:05 AM

LucPatenaude said:
valgaav said:
You sir are wrong. Vcmi is a modern 2d engine that does have transparent png support. So it isn't stuck with 256 colors bmp files like original h3 is.

There is nothing more that you could support in 2d engine really. So it is the question of going 2d vs 3d.

There is more to "heroeslike" game then just graphic engine. All the game mechanics, AI, Random map generator. That is a lot of work, and it is already done in Vcmi.


There is nothing in 2d graphics that are modern anymore. Get with the Windows 10+ era will ya! It is Direct X 11 and 12 only or, total bust.

This 32 bit compatibility thingie ain't cutting it, bub! Must stick to 64 bit and 3D resolutions. Many people such as myself, has not had a pure, 100% monitor for a display for at least a half decade.

Besides, TVs are going literally smart as in being to self connect to the internet without the aid of an external modem nor the use of a PC. These Smart TVs are all-in-one units now. Pretty much like the all-in-one printers(printer, scanner, photocopier), these TVs have the whole PC electronics within its own case(Quad Core processor, Sound chipset, LAN chipset and, of course, the embedded G/VPU + chipset; even a generous amount of RAM is also included).

So, the PC has become a retro-active workstation/complex gaming unit and, of course, Internet connectivity for all other System Administrator bound maintenance activities.

Therefore, the TV could handle the 2d gaming like garbage games anytime, any-day. Civilization Revolution 2 has been specifically made for Tablets and Mini-Tablets like phones. Getting my vibes here? I really hope so.


Maybe you've not realised it yet, but this is not going to be a big studio production with a massive programming team and millions of dollar behind it, so all those fancy-shmancy graphics are going to need to take a back seat to actual useful elements, like the ability to play without crashing.

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LucPatenaude
LucPatenaude


Famous Hero
MMH7's R.M.G is really welcome
posted March 24, 2017 03:17 PM

Crashing? For such a small and, insignificant game?

My answer to mere PC performance problems is: Get a PC that is a mere 4 to 5 years old in overall hardware quality.

Anyone can get a 6th generation of a Quad-Core 4 Ghz a core like machine these days.

I currently have an aging AMD FX 6 cores die of a PC and, looking for a really cheap upgrade to an FX 8 cores die of a CPU for the very same set of hardware that compliments my PC(very same 5 year old mainboard).

That very same mainboard is said to fully support Windows 10(home and pro). The reality is: Must upgrade her to her latest available Bios and, gradually upgrade the device drivers of all her chip-sets up to March 2017. Then and only then, your PC will up to the every possible tasks that is brought upon her. Gaming becomes a complete pleasure to her user. Crashing is not an option nor, a problem at all.

Bugs and glitches that you kept having, just fade away in an absolute nothingness. That is why, bugs fixings created more instability in the game instead of improving the game play in its overall use.

My thorough point comes with a serious reality check: A single or dual core PC is no longer a gamer's rig. These two types are restricted to being mere work stations or terminals to a way more performant Server board.


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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted March 25, 2017 09:34 AM

Crashing is a result of bad coding, not the performance of the computer.

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LucPatenaude
LucPatenaude


Famous Hero
MMH7's R.M.G is really welcome
posted March 27, 2017 07:39 PM

Bad Coding? Has not happened to me, yet.

MattII said:
Crashing is a result of bad coding, not the performance of the computer.


Does that crash event happen in Campaigns and pre-made maps by the Might and Magic map-makers or, what else is there?


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bigpawz83
bigpawz83


Hired Hero
posted May 04, 2017 07:41 AM

You only have to change something 10% to be able to copyright it... For example evil eye to floating eye... Boom make it look different... Just food for thought

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Karmakeld
Karmakeld


Famous Hero
posted August 22, 2017 03:11 PM
Edited by Karmakeld at 15:14, 22 Aug 2017.

I stumbled upon this link. It seems someone is actually attempting to make a new Heroes game. Restoration of Heroes

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Karmakeld
Karmakeld


Famous Hero
posted August 22, 2017 03:13 PM

I stumbled upon this link. It seems someone is actually attempting to make a new Heroes game. url=https://restorationofheroes.com/]Restoration of Heroes[/url]

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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted August 22, 2017 07:46 PM
Edited by Baronus at 19:47, 22 Aug 2017.

Nice someone do it... But its not your own concept?:-)

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted August 23, 2017 08:20 AM

Well according to the latest post, he's going to release the code open-source, so it could be modified.

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