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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Ideas and Suggestions This thread is 100 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 20 40 60 80 ... 96 97 98 99 100 · «PREV / NEXT»
monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted November 07, 2019 07:01 AM

you don't say! (I even admitted it)

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted November 07, 2019 07:37 AM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 07:39, 07 Nov 2019.

@Monere You know I love Fortress too, but you gotta admit Fortress has some problems. If not maining Tazar or Alkin or perhaps Andra their heroes are not that good, especially Witches, which gets terrible skills, very little attack, but a lot of Power and Knowledge, but few spells.
Fortress can do good in combat with level 1-3 spells, especially Water is essential for them, with Bless, Cure, Teleport, Weakness, Forgetfulness etc. But no level 4 means no TP, Resurrection, Water Walk, Meteor Shower, Chain Lightning, Prayer etc. Fortress perhaps needs level 4 guild more than Stronghold, because they have a harder time taking towns and Witches are more magic oriented than Battle Mages.
Fortress' creature abilities are good, but does'nt work much against Necro, Conflux or Tower. The creatures slow speed, fragile flyers and 1 poor shooter is also a problem.
I wonder what people would think about Fortress on a rich map, with no Dragon Fly Hives...

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted November 07, 2019 11:36 AM

phoenix4ever said:
But no level 4 means no TP, Resurrection, Water Walk, Meteor Shower, Chain Lightning, Prayer etc.


On a small map, you just don't need them.

on a big map, you're more then likely to capture a town along the way that can give you those.


phoenix4ever said:
I wonder what people would think about Fortress on a rich map, with no Dragon Fly Hives...


Remember, you have Beastmasters (amazing heroes) in general and Tazar in particular. So you can just recruit other troops on rich map if your own are not to your liking.
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P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted November 07, 2019 02:34 PM
Edited by P4R4D0X0N at 14:37, 07 Nov 2019.

Doomforge said:
P4R4D0X0N said:
Neela and even more Mephala are much more powerful when it comes to "Armorer" special


What? Neela is an alchemist which makes her trash by default (starts with useless scholar + very poor secondary chances, especially Archery which you desperately need for this town) and Mephala is just OK (troubled by crappy Leadership or Luck as a ranger; worse secondary chances; worse primary stat distribution).

Beastmaster and Barbarian are the best classes in the game.




You have to count in town specific units, aswell as other factor like native terrain aswell as prim and sec gains. Neela has the chance for "Fire Magic" even if the chance is low, also in case of stat gain its the same if it comes to Attack, only Defense is lower for Neela. Mephala is even better in gaining Attack than the other two imho that the better choice coz Rampart has a sh*tload of HP on their units anyway. For both their secondary gain are much better (at least for my playstyle). I agree on their secondaries, scholar is useless and I personally hope HotA Team will change the race specific secodaries soon with a complete rebelance of heroes. Leadership is okayish imho. But the whole concept needs a rebalance/polish anyway. I already posted a quite good working formula for it in this thread... In that case Leadership and Luck would work properly again. Anyway, if it comes to Tazar... with advanced armorer he has quit early the chance to get something crappy infact its decided in the first 2 levels if he gets something useful or a crap skill (Artillery and Ballistics, Tactics [I personally kinda never pick Tactics, but it may work well for Fortress] Archery (useless for Fortress) and Scouting are even more possible than for Neela and Mephala) so in the end you will end up in average with 1 or 2 crappy skills on Tazar anyway. I still hope for the "Markt of Time" or Character rebalance to fit in some better in the future. But we will see after the already anounced "Magic rebelance" how it will work out.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted November 07, 2019 02:51 PM

Why would you want Fire magic anyway?

Yes, Tazar may get 2 crappy skills offered at level 3, but Neela is GUARANTEED to have a crappy skill and Mephala is guaranteed to have an arguably poor skill. And the beastmaster's secondary distribution is pretty fine, alchemist's is awful and Ranger's is at best decent (only 5 Logs and 7 pathfinding, 7 scouting, 9 resistance - ugh. You're also very unlikely to learn Air magic).

Beastmaster gets a way better 8 on Logistics, Earth Magic is his most likely magic and the biggest flaw he has is large chance for Artillery spoiling your level up).
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P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted November 07, 2019 03:37 PM

Doomforge said:
Why would you want Fire magic anyway?

Yes, Tazar may get 2 crappy skills offered at level 3, but Neela is GUARANTEED to have a crappy skill and Mephala is guaranteed to have an arguably poor skill. And the beastmaster's secondary distribution is pretty fine, alchemist's is awful and Ranger's is at best decent (only 5 Logs and 7 pathfinding, 7 scouting, 9 resistance - ugh. You're also very unlikely to learn Air magic).

Beastmaster gets a way better 8 on Logistics, Earth Magic is his most likely magic and the biggest flaw he has is large chance for Artillery spoiling your level up).


Well acording to that we kinda agree, that Mephala and Tazar are kinda even. Except the fact Mephala stats with Leadership. I still hope for a reasonable redesign of prim and sec skills in HotA. Since the heroes from Cove have really good sec skills.

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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted November 07, 2019 06:37 PM
Edited by monere at 09:10, 08 Nov 2019.

nordos... that's not a philosophy because we're not debating or analyzing whether or not this game should have only "x good heroes, and the rest simply useless". This is a fact, not philosophy. Each faction has few heroes that are the best in that faction, while the others are useless. Ok, I'm exaggerating a bit here because when I say useless I mean un-popular, but in this situation un-popular and useless are synonyms because if they were any good they would be as popular as the best heroes. Which clearly are not, hence why they are useless. And hence why this is a fact, not philosophy.

Also, of course it would be more engaging if all heroes had their appeal, but this is a 20 years old game, and at that time it's been freaking amazing despite its many flaws that have only become apparent as the years have gone by and the players have discovered them. And even today, look how amazing this game is despite it having so many downsides!

I said in the first reply that it would break this town, yes. But then I thought better about it and "backpedalled" as you call it, and that's fine. People change their minds all the time, on all sorts of topics so they can update the information that their brains operate with. In this case backpedalling is good... well, at least is not harmful to anyone, so I don't see a problem with backpedalling. It would be worse not wanting to admit your mistake and to continue making it.

Quote:
...saying that it merely doesn't fit the design philosophy
but it doesn't. If you're telling me that an offense specialist fits the design of a defensive town it means that you're either narrow minded (like I've called you before), extremely biased (which you are anyway since you have openly admitted that you don't like Fortress), or you are trolling me (in which case you've succeeded because being trolled infuriates me most of the time xD)

Quote:
I don't really understand how witches fit the design philosophy of fortress either
me neither. And they don't. But I don't care about it anyway because I only play Fortress with Tazar and I'm happy with this setup. So happy in fact that I absolutely ignore everything else besides the 2.

Quote:
So, all in all, what is exactly your point regarding that? Heroes shouldn't be changed because there are still some useful ones?
um... have we ever discussed the topic of changing heroes? I honestly don't remember and I'm not gonna read all comments prior to this cause I'm too lazy. But anyway, I don't mind if you, or anybody else changes any heroes because I simply don't care. The last time I have played against a human has been in 2002 I think, and after that I only play against the AI, and only the maps that I edit, and only the way I want to play. So I honestly couldn't care less about any changes made to any heroes (yes, including to tazar, mephala, monere, tamika, or whatever) because it doesn't affect me in any way.

Quote:
I don't see any coherence
me neither, but that's normal in my case because I'm rarely coherent, no matter the subject I discuss

Quote:
I listed the points I dislike about that town, you merely said that it is strong
what exactly should I have said? I'm not gonna write an essay on why Fortress is strong, and how one should play it. I'm not in the position to do that, nor do I have any motives, or knowledge about how to approach this subject. I merely said that it's strong because it's brought me the most victories in PvP games.

Quote:
I don't know under what circumstances, under which conditions or whatever your argumentation is true, since you barely supplied informations
what kind of information would satisfy you? I'm honestly asking so that I know what to answer.

Quote:
sure, Gorgons are one of the best T5 units out there, if not the best, but the rest of the town simply strikes me as .... imbalanced
when you say "imbalanced" you mean that it has goods and bads because that's what "imbalanced" means. Had you said "weak" things would have been simpler because you're calling Fortress' creatures weak, but when you say "imbalanced" it means that you are afraid of calling the town weak, and the reason you might be afraid of doing so is because you have started to change your mind (even is subconsciously only) after these discussions. So, you're not sure yourself anymore that this is a weak town which is cool. Once you practice with it more (like 20-30+ times more) and start winning you;'re gonna see its power and beauty. But you need to get out of your comfort zone (stacking skeletons and abusing CH's offense) and practice the defensive style. Only then will you see where Fortress shines and how to play it.

Quote:
Basilisks, Wyvern and Gorgons loose a bit chunk of their effectiveness if you are mainly dealing with constructs and or undeads
not sure I understand this phrase. And what are constructs anyway??

EDIT: disregard the last quote. I understood what you mean, even if I still don't know what constructs are

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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted November 07, 2019 07:25 PM

P4E... I have always admitted that Fortress has problems. It's just that I don't think their problems are the ones that people bring up (lack of mage guild level 4, bad heroes, etc). I think Fortress' problems are lack of speed (with the except of Dragonflies all other creatures should get +1 more speed), and the (low) HPs of wyvern monarchs and chaos hydras. I think the monarchs should get at least +5 more HPs (yes, only the monarchs), and the chaos hydras +10 more HPs. With these minor improvements I think Fortress would be able to last longer in battles and even win more, even without Tazar.

Quote:
Fortress can do good in combat with level 1-3 spells, especially Water is essential for them, with Bless, Cure, Teleport, Weakness, Forgetfulness etc. But no level 4 means no TP, Resurrection, Water Walk, Meteor Shower, Chain Lightning, Prayer etc.
I would reply with the exact same words as Doomforge, so I'm not gonna repeat what he said because I think the same, too

Also, prayer might be good for other creatures (personally, I don't like this spell), but on Fortress' creature is a waste of turn. Haste does more good thing for the sluggish Fortress than an extra +2 ATT and DEF that prayer gives at the expense of less speed than mass haste. And the same can be said for Meteor Shower and Chain Lightning. Fortress doesn't need offensive spells because their creatures' abilities are too good to waste in favor of offensive spells. It makes much more sense to cast mass bless, or teleport the hydras behind the enemy lines and cast counterstrike on them

Quote:
Fortress' creature abilities are good, but does'nt work much against Necro, Conflux or Tower
Necro is the 9ayest, cheatest faction ever created, so I'm not surprised they have the upper hand against anyone. But why Tower??? The abilities work against Tower perfectly. Ok, death stare doesn't work on golems and gargoyles but who's gonna fear these creatures when you're up against Naga Queens and Titans?

Quote:
The creatures slow speed, fragile flyers and 1 poor shooter is also a problem
speed and fragile fliers, yes, but personally I like the lizard warriors more than the gogs. Hell, I like them even more than magogs, even though the magogs are better. The lizard warriors with bless on them are pretty good for a level 2 shooter

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gatecrasher
gatecrasher


Famous Hero
posted November 09, 2019 01:08 AM

No, buying Lizard warriors is wasting an army slot and gold. They are slow and higher in Defence than Offence which is not useful for a shooter. No good bang for the buck.

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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted November 09, 2019 03:28 AM

gatecrasher said:
No, buying Lizard warriors is wasting an army slot and gold. They are slow and higher in Defence than Offence which is not useful for a shooter. No good bang for the buck.
on tazar they die hard (even harder than bruce willis) and they tear you down little by little

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gatecrasher
gatecrasher


Famous Hero
posted November 09, 2019 05:29 PM

But any other unit on Tazar will die even harder and tear your opponent down faster.

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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted November 09, 2019 05:42 PM

not if they can't get to you. And with Fortress' speed they can't ^_^

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted November 10, 2019 08:18 AM

monere said:
Haste does more good thing for the sluggish Fortress than an extra +2 ATT and DEF that prayer gives at the expense of less speed than mass haste.

It's four of A/D and speed with expert Water. You only lose one of speed and you need Water for Teleport anyway.
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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted November 10, 2019 10:30 AM

bloodsucker said:
monere said:
Haste does more good thing for the sluggish Fortress than an extra +2 ATT and DEF that prayer gives at the expense of less speed than mass haste.

It's four of A/D and speed with expert Water. You only lose one of speed and you need Water for Teleport anyway.
ok, 4, my bad. But if I'm gonna get water (which I will) I'll definitely cast mass bless, forgetfulness on titans and mages, or teleport the hydras / gorgons (because I assume the enemy has cast mass slow first). Still better than prayer

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mihaid
mihaid

Tavern Dweller
posted November 11, 2019 10:56 AM

monere said:
bloodsucker said:

It's four of A/D and speed with expert Water. You only lose one of speed and you need Water for Teleport anyway.
ok, 4, my bad. But if I'm gonna get water (which I will) I'll definitely cast mass bless, forgetfulness on titans and mages, or teleport the hydras / gorgons (because I assume the enemy has cast mass slow first). Still better than prayer


Forgetfulness doesn't work on titans. They are immune to mind spells.

Prayer is a mass spell. It will grant slowed Mighty Gorgons 7 speed (+1 from base) and Chaos Hydras also 7 speed (same as base). This assures that both will be able to reach any corner from the middle of the battlefield.

Teleport is single cast. It guarantees an attack for one creature, while others may miss their attack because they can't reach the enemy.

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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted November 11, 2019 12:11 PM

I know that Titans are immune to mind spells but I still cast forgetfullness on them. Also, if you teleport the hydras in the enemy crowd this "single use" spell is more worthwhile than prayer. Besides, I've never seen prayer giving 7 speed. Not even mass haste gives this much speed, much less prayer. Mind you, I haven't updated my version of WoG since 15 years ago, so in the version I play things might be different to what you're playing

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nordos
nordos


Known Hero
posted November 11, 2019 12:17 PM

monere said:
I know that Titans are immune to mind spells but I still cast forgetfullness on them. Also, if you teleport the hydras in the enemy crowd this "single use" spell is more worthwhile than prayer. Besides, I've never seen prayer giving 7 speed. Not even mass haste gives this much speed, much less prayer. Mind you, I haven't updated my version of WoG since 15 years ago, so in the version I play things might be different to what you're playing


- immune to mind magic = immune to forgetfullness (since that is a mind spell, similar to berserk, frenzy, ...)
- he said that the total speed of gorgons will be 7, after they got slowed and then prayered. He simply told you that this speed is good enough in most cases, so you don't need to have some weird Mass Slow -> Mass Haste -> Mass Slow -> ... chain.

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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted November 11, 2019 12:20 PM

so I misread then

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted November 13, 2019 05:33 AM
Edited by MattII at 11:15, 13 Nov 2019.

A few more adventure map object suggestions:
Mage Guild (All-Terrain)
A visiting hero can buy any or all of the half dozen spell contained for a cost of 150/200/275/375/500 gold for levels 1/2/3/4/5.

Dwarven Bank (Grass)
Acts like a Treasury at the Rampart.

Traveller's Inn (All-Terrain)
Visiting hero can pay to learn any of three secondary skills on offer, for a cost of 2,500 gold for Basic level or 5,000 Gold for Advanced. Skills change each week.

Eye of the Magi
Different groupings for The eyes of the Magi, like in Heroes 4.

Spy's Nest (All-Terrain)
A visiting hero can pay to reveal the position of an enemy's castles for 500 gold per castle (picked at random per player if you can't pay to reveal them all).

In general, I'd also like more terrain-unique buildings, like the Water Wheel for Grass, Magic Spring for Rough, or Hermit's Shack, Gazebo or Junkman for Highlands. I want that to be especially true for Sand, it being the only terrain without a native town.

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mihaid
mihaid

Tavern Dweller
posted November 13, 2019 07:49 AM

MattII said:
A few more adventure map object suggestions:
Mage Guild (All-Terrain)
A visiting hero can buy any or all of the half dozen spell contained for a cost of 150/200/275/375/500 gold for levels 1/2/3/4/5.



I like this one. It's like an University for spells. I would probably make the costs higher and eliminate the level 5 spell though. Just have 4 spells, one of each for levels 1-4 at the cost of 250/500/750/1000.

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