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FirePaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted December 01, 2021 11:49 PM |
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I know that HotA wasn't entirely faithful towards MM's and H3's design with Cove at least, but daaaang, this goes beyond the tens of crappy town ideas I heard over the years. I'm bewildered, almost speechless and feel like I'm about to short-circuit, and this is no easy feat to do unironically. I'm sorry if this comes off as offensive, but this is really....
tl;dr NWC's HoMM and not even Ubisoft's HoMM games work like that. Rather, they just use well-known fantasy (or even sci-fi! In the case of Forge) themes, like nature town with elves, magical town with constructs etc.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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Treth
Tavern Dweller
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posted December 02, 2021 12:32 AM |
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Edited by Treth at 00:37, 02 Dec 2021.
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Please excuse Fire Paladin, that's just what looking into lore and design inspirations of this game can do to one's perception.
In advance I can assure you that HotA team is rather reserved when it comes to listening to wishlists, especially if it is calling for things of this caliber (entire new faction, as maybe you've read in the main HotA thread is quite a lot of legwork, and everyone would rather do it with their own ideas than just taking someone's rough draft and doing all the tedious stuff for them).
But as for your idea itself, allow me to point you in a few directions that can improve it.
First of all the storyline of the faction, along with campaign you'd want to tell can be inspired by the historical or legendary events, but telling precisely these event from a legend or history is, well, just awkward, as this would not be set in our world, but a world of Heroes of Might and Magic (not necessarily Antagarich, there are other places where there's space for that), with its own kingdoms, history, geopolitics, mythology and all that ecosystem. Trying to put a story from our history word per word in here would fit as well as faction of German Empire with campaign about uniting all German Duchies under one governship.
Second thing, even more important, is what Fire Paladin said about mythology and accessible tropes from it. Greek myths and some other creatures from other cultures have been overused to death, to the point nobody bats an eye despite Minotaur being a single unique beast from Greek myths and Medusa beind one of three Gorgons, they appear in droves in every second piece of fantasy work. It's just that with less overused creatures it probably is going to be a bit harder to pull off. I am no expert but there must be some interesting creatures from Biblical sources or Israeli legends that could be used. Some of them were already used in varying contexts, Behemoth being a creature from Bible, Sephinroth and Golem being derived from Kabbalah and mythology around it.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted December 02, 2021 02:26 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 02:28, 02 Dec 2021.
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Barakon said:
If I were to be the one to work on Horn of the Abyss I would try to add a faction which at least resembles the Maccabees from the story of Hanukkah along side with their adversary so that players could hypothetically reenact The Hasmoneans' rebellion.
Why would I want such a thing?
Because the story of Hanukkah is not given enough adaptations within the arts, at least anywhere besides Israel I suppose...One of the few movies it got in the US film industry was made by Adam Sandler after all so...yeah...
Sidenote; I envisioned that the Hasmoneans would had a dragon for their 7 tier that would have the body and mane of a lion, head of a mountain gazelle, wings of a dove, and iridescent scales for the upgraded form, I call it the Opal dragon. The Opal dragon would be on par with the gold dragon if not between the Gold and black dragon. Its weaker first form is called the white dragon and is white and periwinkle or white and chartruse.
Perhaps to make things fair one could give the Greeks a dragon or otherwise powerful 7 tier which would be on par with the Opal dragon and or equal to the Black dragon. You could also add an alternative form of the Minotaur to the Greek faction or otherwise good Greek mythological creatures.
They could even be used as for some of the altered monsters in the factory faction's side that seeks to control nature.
Is that request too much to ask for or is otherwise ridiculous or is it an interesting idea?
TBH, Hannukah town and "greek" town is a less bad concept idea than wild west town with colorful mesoamerican max level unit... at least it is well within antiquity style as the myth units of most other factions and H3 in general.
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Kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted December 02, 2021 09:55 PM |
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how's a jewish holiday themed town is gonna work? Unless you go for biblical Kingdom of Israel, to flesh it out proper. And while real hebrews might apreciate the gesture, you're also gonna offend a whole lot of the cult of non-virility, no matter how you spin this project.
How about you make it for VCMI first, it already has a Christmas themed meme town, along with 546486416 different Castle recolors.
HotA is essentially the devs' headcannon of Enroth, that's what it's gonna be and remain. Don't really think you can supplant any of the M&M cultures well with a jewish one tbh. Even on the aesthetic side.
Now if you'll excuse me, imma go hide from ADL.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 02, 2021 11:11 PM |
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kwanza town. 
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Kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted December 03, 2021 05:59 PM |
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fred79 said:
kwanza town.
Even better.
we waz kangz wakangda foreva town with a campaing "the genysys av wyte pypo" where the first uncle tom Yakub creates white heterosexual men, and ushers in the downfall of all black civilisations ever.
Das rite.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted December 03, 2021 06:33 PM |
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Yasss! The campaign would end with heroic Kwanza town erecting their massive grail structure The Big Black Dee, making all the white women join them. A tiny angry white barbarian tribe called Kincels manages to survive, adopting Malding as their new religion.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 03, 2021 06:51 PM |
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big laughs here. 
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PiggyChu620
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 04, 2021 10:12 AM |
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Artifact suggestion
Is it possible to make an artifact where the hero could send the army back to the castle "remotely"?
I like to "collect" wild monsters through diplomacy but always find it very pita to "transport" exceeding armies.
I could make it with ERA, but unfortunately, HOTA doesn't support ERA.
So I'm here to sincerely request the development team to kindly make one for me, thank you VERY much for your help and consideration.
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VampMarcie
Hired Hero
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posted December 04, 2021 01:01 PM |
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PiggyChu620 said:
Is it possible to make an artifact where the hero could send the army back to the castle "remotely"?
I like to "collect" wild monsters through diplomacy but always find it very pita to "transport" exceeding armies.
I could make it with ERA, but unfortunately, HOTA doesn't support ERA.
So I'm here to sincerely request the development team to kindly make one for me, thank you VERY much for your help and consideration.
This will never happen outside of ERA or VCMI unless they implement caravans into H3, but again, that's not gonna happen.
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PiggyChu620
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 04, 2021 01:26 PM |
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VampMarcie said:
PiggyChu620 said:
Is it possible to make an artifact where the hero could send the army back to the castle "remotely"?
I like to "collect" wild monsters through diplomacy but always find it very pita to "transport" exceeding armies.
I could make it with ERA, but unfortunately, HOTA doesn't support ERA.
So I'm here to sincerely request the development team to kindly make one for me, thank you VERY much for your help and consideration.
This will never happen outside of ERA or VCMI unless they implement caravans into H3, but again, that's not gonna happen.
Why can you be so sure?
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FirePaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted December 04, 2021 01:34 PM |
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HotA team won't add something that changes the gameplay this much, simple as (they also got hero chaining already anyway). Besides being busy with Factory town and who knows what and if they'll bring more updates, and again, doubtfully something like caravans. As for it never happening outside of ERA or VCMI, I wouldn't be sure about that either.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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PiggyChu620
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 04, 2021 01:42 PM |
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FirePaladin said:
HotA team won't add something that changes the gameplay this much, simple as (they also got hero chaining already anyway). Besides being busy with Factory town and who knows what and if they'll bring more updates, and again, doubtfully something like caravans. As for it never happening outside of ERA or VCMI, I wouldn't be sure about that either.
Oh! What a shame! But thanks anyway!
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted December 05, 2021 06:18 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 06:21, 05 Dec 2021.
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Well, for those that complain about jewish mythology, golems and angels (yes, even of the humanoid kind) are already jewish mythology in the game, along with a bunch of other stuff (flaming swords, walking on water, divine-type resurrection as with archangels, etc.)
If Castle can feign to be "medieval western europe: The town" I don't see much trouble with one based on the twelve tribes or such-
(Funnyly enough, in H3 maps I saw, russians self-represent as Castle whereas they make the USA as necropolis)
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FirePaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted December 05, 2021 01:55 PM |
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"Medieval western Europe: The town" is a very classic trope in fantasy, thing which H3's design philosophy is based on (yeah, I'm not pulling this out of my ass, you can read Gregory Fulton's newsletters or even talk to him directly if you wish). That's also why pretty much the only other possible towns that would be (partially at least) human-based would be barbarians (Stronghold), wizards (Tower, Dungeon) and alchemists (Courtyard), most of which are already in. I may have missed a few, but without offense, a Jewish town is definitely not a classic fantasy trope.
Edit: Yes, the same goes for Angels and golems, both incorporated into modern fantasy tropes, and I suppose D&D as well, at least for the golems.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted December 06, 2021 04:55 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 04:56, 06 Dec 2021.
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Might and Magic is old enough to make its own tropes. It doesn't need to rely in "Generic fantasy" (as if such thing was even possible)
Fantasy is always evolving, Rampart has asian themes and is a grass town; this is definitely not standard. You can see that Inferno has asian architecture (Torii) in demon's gate. And that's not even entering in the "Japanese Nagas" faction of Heroes IV.
An ancient jewish town is as plausible as Academy as an arab/egyptian based town which is exactly what happens in Heroes V and VII at the very least.
And by the way, jewish and egyptian civilization themes are already very stablished in semi-fantasy "biblical movies".
Dungeon, Tower, atthe very least, are definitely not based on any "Preexisting generic fantasy cultural stereotypes".
Also, while we're on the topic, "THE WILD WEST" is definitely not a classic fantasy trope-.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 06, 2021 10:59 AM |
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Edited by fred79 at 11:13, 06 Dec 2021.
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i kinda like the idea of a jewish town. a jewish town's strength would be subversion, an entirely new tactic in homm3. they infiltrate other towns and corrupt them from the inside, stealing resources and causing infighting amongst the target town's troops; and they recruit creatures in that town to go to war for them. they also create low-level golems during their infiltration, like how skeletons multiply.
i think their town lineup would be:
1. golems (replicating ability, like skeletons)
2. magogs (because their attacks would also harm their allies)
3. imps (more powerful versions that run rallies, campaigns, schooling, and such)
4. enchanters (self-explanatory)
5. vampire rabbis (self-explanatory)
6. reverse medusas (because you can't gaze upon them without them acting like they're being harmed*)
7. hydra (because cutting off one head produces two, and because "hail hydra", obviously)
*the grail building would give all creatures this ability.
what do you guys think? i certainly would like to see this town created. somebody get on it.
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FirePaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted December 06, 2021 01:38 PM |
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@NimoStar
Might and Magic doesn't make its own tropes. That's one major design philosophy. Or at least it didn't while it ran. I cannot change that myself while respecting their philosophy, after all there's still much to discover. And yes, it's possible if NWC developed their games exactly like that (sidenote: D&D, at least at that time, was a good indicator of generic fantasy stuff).
Yes, you have a point with the more Asian-themed Rampart, but: that's another part of their philosophy, combining some more other underlying cultures with a generic culture.
Also, who here said anything beyond HoMM4 was relevant? HoMM5+ used other design philosophies which do not fit those used by NWC, why did you even bring those up? While we're at that I could say that Spiderpolis was a good idea. Ubisoft's HoMM games were nation/culture-based.
Semi-fantasy biblical movies aren't really part of your generic fantasy. Simple as.
Dungeon and Tower are wizard factions, based on the evil and good wizard tropes, with their slight twist/trait (one is constructs-based, another is dragons/beast-based). So yes, they are quite classic tropes.
And yeah, I definitely agree with the Wild West part, the more I study NWC's design philosophies and all that, the less it fits and it looks silly. Even if it's supposed to be a whinner-friendly Forge, it doesn't mean it's not actually silly.
And again, I'm not talking out of my arse, both Greg and the loremasters agree on this exact design philosophy of using generic tropes with some slight twists, like Rampart's Asian touch. Idk why we're even having the argument if there's this little point to it.
@fred79
You forgot the big-nosed dwarves and their banks, I'm utterly disappointed and won't get involved in this project until you fix that major flaw.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 06, 2021 01:43 PM |
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no, the harry potter universe has that already covered. i'm trying to stay within the bounds of the heroes universe. dwarves in our neck of the woods are a different creature altogether.
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FirePaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted December 06, 2021 01:46 PM |
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But then, what about the classic trope of this culture?
Perhaps a totally new creature as an alternate? Or maybe the heroes would look like this, while having a better version of the "Treasury" building, that passively takes money from everyone else as well?
Edit: Jesus Christ, this pic is bigger than I thought.
Edit 2: Fixed that.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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