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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: Forge mentality
Thread: Forge mentality This thread is 10 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · «PREV / NEXT»
artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted July 13, 2017 09:06 PM
Edited by artu at 21:07, 13 Jul 2017.

@xfing

English is not my mother tongue, so if franchise is what you say it is, fine, replace the word with "product" or "series" and the argument is still there. (Although, I'm still skeptical that one would call Iron Man and Thor the same franchise just because they share a universe.) The style of the HoMM series (not just the third game of the series) was always pure fantasy, not a sci-fi, no matter the lore behind. Heroes 3 alone worked perfectly as pure medieval fantasy.

Now, some say Forge was going to be campaign exclusive, but then it would have meant an expansion with one less town outside that campaign and I'm really not so sure that was the case anyway.
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted July 13, 2017 09:45 PM

As far as I'm concerned, the thing about Forge being campaign only is just hearsay at best. I haven't seen any source for it, plus having a town excluded from the rmg makes no sense.
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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted July 13, 2017 10:10 PM

Found this interesting piece.

GameSpot said:
Then concerned parents began to post letters and send e-mail saying they were worried about the violent nature of Forge Town and that it should be pulled from the expansion pack at all costs. While the identity of the parents has yet to be confirmed, several posts by hard-core fans allude to the fact that they may have forged those letters in order to get 3DO's attention. And they were noticed.

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Erwin Loses A Kidney
posted July 13, 2017 10:19 PM

artu said:
Now, some say Forge was going to be campaign exclusive, but then it would have meant an expansion with one less town outside that campaign and I'm really not so sure that was the case anyway.


bear in mind that the Forge was only to be enabled if the mapmaker enabled that mate, Cepheus said that in his big article on the Forge which Celestial Heavens published, check that on the Celestial Heavens cheers lol
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Xfing
Xfing


Hired Hero
posted July 13, 2017 10:27 PM
Edited by Xfing at 22:36, 13 Jul 2017.

Yeah, not exactly campaign-exclusive, but possible to exclude from random games if the players so wish. So yeah, optionally omitted from the RNG when "random faction" is chosen. I'd be perfectly fine with that too.

Still, I'd only really enjoy Forge gameplay-wise if it had noticeably stronger units on average than the rest of the factions, as was discussed on the first pages of this thread. Making all those versions where the units are nothing special is missing the point IMO.

Baronus said:

Yes as you see faction that be cant be victored without only the best artifact is completly nonsence.


Ok, so according to this way of thinking the Kreegans from Armageddon's Blade are nonsense too, because the Armageddon's Blade was necessary to beat them for good.

In-game you can defeat Inferno without this artifact, but not in the story. Have you ever heard of story and gameplay separation? Or stuff you can't do in-game, but happens just like that in cutscenes. These are basic video gaming tropes. Do you even storytelling, bro?

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted July 13, 2017 11:50 PM
Edited by Stevie at 23:51, 13 Jul 2017.

verriker said:
artu said:
Now, some say Forge was going to be campaign exclusive, but then it would have meant an expansion with one less town outside that campaign and I'm really not so sure that was the case anyway.


bear in mind that the Forge was only to be enabled if the mapmaker enabled that mate, Cepheus said that in his big article on the Forge which Celestial Heavens published, check that on the Celestial Heavens cheers lol


Do yourself a favor and read that article again, mate. There's no such mention by him. He didn't even use the words "enable" or "mapmaker" in the entire article.

But reading the article, it's become apparent that the source for the campaign-only thingy is just a supposition. There's no reference attached to it or anything like that. Given that the article was posted in 2011, he probably took whatever speculation he found on the forums and included it in the article. Little did he know about the people in 2017 taking it for gospel.
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Erwin Loses A Kidney
posted July 14, 2017 12:03 AM

Xfing said:
Yeah, not exactly campaign-exclusive, but possible to exclude from random games if the players so wish. So yeah, optionally omitted from the RNG when "random faction" is chosen. I'd be perfectly fine with that too.

Still, I'd only really enjoy Forge gameplay-wise if it had noticeably stronger units on average than the rest of the factions, as was discussed on the first pages of this thread. Making all those versions where the units are nothing special is missing the point IMO.


for sure mate, it is a good thing we had Cepheus and his great research to confirm that those were campaign only or mapmaker enabled, he was certainly not a mediocre HC member unlike some I could name lol

I am legit interested in trying to make that Armageddon's Blade remake btw even though I have no skills or talent lol, if I get that far I would love to borrow from you your balance concept if you would be gracious to let me lol
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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted July 14, 2017 08:22 AM

Kreegans in HIII is normal city and never in look or in fabula is told that they are overpowered cosmits. In fact one of 3 evil cities.
Forge with supertechnologies shoud be 100 to 1000 times powerfull than castle. Or be a stupid faction when pikemans using pikes, beat goblins with blasters and calvary beat cybertanks :-):-):-) Completly idiotic idea. No way to add forge without parody to medieval world.

It was difference which concept of forge you mean?
AB concept changes:
1. Forge as normal city.
2. Players protests.
3. Adding only one campaign city.
4. One campaign city is a nonsense and harm to lost time, lets do new city.
This is logical storyline reconstruction...

And violence was a problem. First hear. Fact. Using  mechanical saws to killing with sounds is rather psychopatic. In MM play kids..

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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted July 14, 2017 12:33 PM

By same logic, it was an idiotic thing to make the Mountain town in Heroes I because it was simply overpowered.

I'll only say there has to be some time invested in playing MM1 to MM6, at least, to get the basic idea about medieval and sci-fi elements in the same game, to know why Forge was to be added.

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted July 14, 2017 02:25 PM

It's not a question of being overpowered, it's a question of preserving the thematic approach of Heroes 3. In that respect, a game has to make sense by itself, without relying on any other title. It's called thematic cohesion. Forge was breaking that for Heroes 3 and the fans didn't like it, hence the overwhelming anti-Forge response from the community boards (overwhelming meant by comparison to the very little pro-Forge activity, just so everyone understands). This isn't about customer entitlement or a lack of trust either. Let's not forget that Heroes 3 was already in place, popular and very successful and that Forge was only an expansion to be added to it. If Forge was planned ahead, then JVC and co. shouldn't have reinforced the medieval fantasy theme to the point that sci-fi would come as a shock that made people believe it didn't belong. Or, he should've gone with it like he did and never consider Forge for an expansion. So either way you want to look at it, the mistake was on their side and the community was only there to flag it. I find it really absurd that people come in retrospective and blame the community for "what could have been". It wasn't an exercise of mass psychosis, people reacted the way they did for a very legitimate reason.
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Xfing
Xfing


Hired Hero
posted July 14, 2017 04:44 PM
Edited by Xfing at 16:49, 14 Jul 2017.

Stevie said:
It's not a question of being overpowered, it's a question of preserving the thematic approach of Heroes 3.


Well, maybe not to you, but to Baronus it certainly is. And he is wrong about that too - modern firepower indeed beats middle-ages weaponry, but no one ever said it also beats freaking DRAGONS and SORCERERS. Those are not real life, so a comparison to real-life is only half valid. Anyway...

Quote:
In that respect, a game has to make sense by itself, without relying on any other title. It's called thematic cohesion.


Well then, even with how Armageddon's Blade turned out, you can't have Armageddon's Blade without Might and Magic VII. That's because you use king Roland as a hero in the campaign, and if you've only played Heroes 3 before, you'd have no idea how the hell come you're able to play him now all of a sudden. Hint: he had was being held prisoner by the Kreegans during Restoration of Erathia (captured sometime between Heroes 2 and MM6) and was rescued during Might and Magic 7. Ergo, Armageddon's Blade only makes sense (fully at least) if you know what happened during MM7. The stories of Restoration > MM7 > Armageddon's blade form a cohesive chain.

Quote:

If Forge was planned ahead, then JVC and co. shouldn't have reinforced the medieval fantasy theme to the point that sci-fi would come as a shock that made people believe it didn't belong.


What do you mean "reinforce"? Enroth IS a 100% legit mediaval fantasy world, at least on the surface. There is not much else to present here - all the modern technology is buried, forgotten or closely guarded. Kinda like Atlantis - everyone has heard of its wonders, but it's basically faded into myth. If you were thinking about JVC and co. forcing more sci-fi elements into Heroes earlier on, you should know this wouldn't be possible just like that, simply due to the specifics of the setting. It would require a plot justification - one that was only prepared in MM7. Then the path was clear.

And quite honestly - they couldn't have done it any quicker if they tried. It's not like they deliberately delayed introducing sci-fi elements into Heroes. They merged the settings by releasing MM6 on April 30th, 1998, setting its action on Enroth. Heroes 3 was released less than a year afterwards, in February 1999, and Armageddon's Blade the very same year. If you ask me it's not much of a delay, it's a little over a year. If there had been no Heroes I and II (which until MM6 was made were considered to be in a completely separate universe), this shift from high fantasy to science fantasy wouldn't have been so difficult for the fans to accept.

Quote:
Or, he should've gone with it like he did and never consider Forge for an expansion. So either way you want to look at it, the mistake was on their side and the community was only there to flag it. I find it really absurd that people come in retrospective and blame the community for "what could have been". It wasn't an exercise of mass psychosis, people reacted the way they did for a very legitimate reason.


Yeah, for the reason that only at Heroes 3 did NWC realize that they wanted it to play out in the same universe as Might and Magic did. This was literally NWC's only fault - either lack of foresight or an abrupt decision with consequences.

That said - you have to admit that just as many if not even more fans were and still are disappointed, due to losing what would have not only been a shocking (and rewarding) plot twist, but also an example of some really amazing storytelling.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted July 14, 2017 05:27 PM
Edited by artu at 17:30, 14 Jul 2017.

Xfing said:

Quote:
In that respect, a game has to make sense by itself, without relying on any other title. It's called thematic cohesion.

Well then, even with how Armageddon's Blade turned out, you can't have Armageddon's Blade without Might and Magic VII. That's because you use king Roland as a hero in the campaign, and if you've only played Heroes 3 before, you'd have no idea how the hell come you're able to play him now all of a sudden. Hint: he had was being held prisoner by the Kreegans during Restoration of Erathia (captured sometime between Heroes 2 and MM6) and was rescued during Might and Magic 7. Ergo, Armageddon's Blade only makes sense (fully at least) if you know what happened during MM7. The stories of Restoration > MM7 > Armageddon's blade form a cohesive chain.

To repeat myself, when talking about things like thematic cohesion or consistency in style, people are referring to the game play experience itself, NOT the story (or lore as some prefer to call it) behind. I know that some players like to get into the lore and think of themselves as enacting the characters in the story and they have a hard time grasping this but to most of us, the lore is just irrelevant second-class children literature that has nothing to do with enjoying the game. I played Heroes 3 for years constantly and I didnt even bother to remember some of the Heroes names, Salamandre one of the most prominent and dedicated mod makers of the game, wrote here that even after all these years, he has no clue when people start talking about Enroth or Aschan, some heavy players I know, can't even speak English to read the lore for once. In short: No one gives a crap about the lore and where did Armageddon's Blade came from, it's just an artifact that looks like a magical sword on fire and we're fine with it as long as it doesnt look like an Uzi gun.
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Xfing
Xfing


Hired Hero
posted July 14, 2017 05:47 PM
Edited by Corribus at 03:09, 14 Aug 2017.

artu said:
Xfing said:

Quote:
In that respect, a game has to make sense by itself, without relying on any other title. It's called thematic cohesion.

Well then, even with how Armageddon's Blade turned out, you can't have Armageddon's Blade without Might and Magic VII. That's because you use king Roland as a hero in the campaign, and if you've only played Heroes 3 before, you'd have no idea how the hell come you're able to play him now all of a sudden. Hint: he had was being held prisoner by the Kreegans during Restoration of Erathia (captured sometime between Heroes 2 and MM6) and was rescued during Might and Magic 7. Ergo, Armageddon's Blade only makes sense (fully at least) if you know what happened during MM7. The stories of Restoration > MM7 > Armageddon's blade form a cohesive chain.

To repeat myself, when talking about things like thematic cohesion or consistency in style, people are referring to the game play experience itself, NOT the story (or lore as some prefer to call it) behind. I know that some players like to get into the lore and think of themselves as enacting the characters in the story and they have a hard time grasping this but to most of us, the lore is just irrelevant second-class children literature that has nothing to do with enjoying the game. I played Heroes 3 for years constantly and I didnt even bother to remember some of the Heroes names, Salamandre one of the most prominent and dedicated mod makers of the game, wrote here that even after all these years, he has no clue when people start talking about Enroth or Aschan, some heavy players I know, can't even speak English to read the lore for once. In short: No one gives a crap about the lore and where did Armageddon's Blade came from, it's just an artifact that looks like a magical sword on fire and we're fine with it as long as it doesnt look like an Uzi gun.


That's quite a big assumption you're making here. Lots of people actually care about the lore. More even - if you're playing single player, a good story will be the deciding factor of whether you'll be enjoying the gameplay. Why would you force yourself to beat a difficult game if you don't care in the slightest about who the characters are, and whether they live or die?

Heroes is a strategy game, right, but it is also a very good vessel for telling stories. You have the right to not give a snow about plot, but you shouldn't go around assuming everyone's like that, or should be like that. You're basically reducing Heroes to chess with fancier graphics and mechanics, which is fine, but by no means the only valid approach.

MOD EDIT: Images removed.

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AlHazin
AlHazin


Promising
Supreme Hero
Tutto possibile
posted July 14, 2017 05:55 PM

Drop those pics, there is a violation of the CoC here.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted July 14, 2017 06:00 PM

Xfing, I already said some people like to get into the lore, didn't I. I know they happen to exist. What I mean is, taking them as the base when the ones making the objection are the ones who don't is pointless. No one gives a crap about the lore in the sense that when someone says HoMM series is medieval fantasy and the response is "oh, but the demons are actually aliens and the blade is actually this and that," it's missing the whole point.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 14, 2017 06:54 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 19:04, 14 Jul 2017.

I respect people who dedicate and debate about the lore. However, in 15 years of playing this game, I never met ONE seriously active player who cared about the story behind, the connections between sequels or the thematic. I think that once you go much beyond the first hand experience and you are ready to invest serious time, you discover that the best part is playing against others, also that best ever maps are not connected to any lore. Then you just don't care anymore as you are hooked into realistic and enthralling action. There are, however, situations where you need to memorize and think the lore: if you plan to create a campaign sequel, a game sequel or some add on, but as a pure player you can just skip the lore and play the game.

But thats me, I also never understand people who wrote full pages about "possible factions or towns", with huge descriptions and pics from random links. For me, if you have an idea, sit down and make it real, and if you can't, lower the requirements until you can do it, so others can directly profit along with you getting better.

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salubri
salubri


Adventuring Hero
posted July 14, 2017 07:03 PM

I am one of those who cares about the lore. Thats why H5-7 and MM10 is total nonsence to me. Everything was changed so much. Even orcs arent orcs anymore. Some dragon gods crap. Its hard to play when you know only a little and further exploration of lore doesnt interest you. A new heroes game comes out. You just explore units, artifacts and uninstall cause you dont really care why all of that is in there. If people dont care about the lore then why complain about the forge? Without the lore you can add anything. Oh but its medieval... Nope without the lore it can be anything. Oh but heroes games were always medieval... Yeah because of the lore that kept them medieval.

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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted July 14, 2017 07:08 PM

I'd say that ignorance towards the lore IS what led to all those death threats for the Forge. Would be better to invest some time on prequels than to badmouth Forge and live in ignorance.

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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted July 14, 2017 07:10 PM

We must stop offtopic MMVI, MMVII. We are telling about HIII. Forge fit TO THIS GAME or not. NOT TO MMVI or MMVII, another system another gameplay. Completly another all. And forge dont fit. You mustnt be a genius to see that forge city ecran completly dont fit to rest game. Graphic style is first barrier. Second is world coherence. Sci breaking rest. Third is ballance. This city must be overpowered because if will be the same power like others it will be stupid. Gnolls or pikemans destroing blasters troops.
In fact is impossible to ballanced it. I dont want stupid Heroes III where primitive armies destroing tanks robots and other high technology units. One is fantasion but second is idiotism. Minimum sense is needed in fantasy too.

Other question is forge city design. Idea was good. City design too. BUT DONT FIT! Good design to another game. And thats all.

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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted July 14, 2017 07:19 PM
Edited by EnergyZ at 19:22, 14 Jul 2017.

But let me ask you this: if the devs back then thought of it like that way, they wouldn't have spent time to make such designs, concepts, maps, creatures and tons of other things, would they? The world is affiliated with the franchise that mixes both medieval and science-fiction themes. More importantly, how would you even explain the fact Might and Magic, at its core, has those two elements that spawned out 9 RPG sequels? (The MM10 isn't counted because, well, Ashan, only fantasy there.)

It's like reading a book, you can't understand the ending if you just skipped the rest.

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