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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Spy poisoning: Russian diplomats expelled across US and Europe
Thread: Spy poisoning: Russian diplomats expelled across US and Europe This thread is 8 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT»
blizzardboy
blizzardboy


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Prince of Poetry
posted April 07, 2018 12:32 AM
Edited by blizzardboy at 10:51, 09 Apr 2018.

Relatively speaking, yes. If you go from suck to blow, it is an improvement, hence the crowds of destitute serfs cheering him on while the de facto billionaire nobility drain the national resources into their personal bank accounts.

The Russian public are visionaries and poets (which is not their fault). The point isnt to flame the Russians since they are as much slaves to their social environment as anybody, but Zeno's pathetic cop out doesnt help anything. "The West has done meanie things so Russia doing meanie things cant be criticized".  It's an argument based on feelings and pride and it is conveniently usable by Russia until literally the end of time to justify limitless abuse on its own population.

Honestly, if you look at trolls like Erdogan or Assad, they use the identical cop out. They don't so much bother defending themselves but just stir up **** about foreigners to make the public desensitized and distracted. If everybody is just as bad, then there's no point to protest. Saudi Arabia and Iran are moving towards Cold War with each other, which mutually garantees no revolutions in either country.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted April 07, 2018 03:54 PM

blizzardboy said:
Relatively speaking, yes. If you go from suck to blow, it is an improvement, hence the crowds of destitute serfs cheering him on while the de facto billionaire nobility drain the national resources into their personal bank accounts.


Sure, and what part in the "relatively" you and your alike play, with endless and repetitive economical sanctions over issues again you and your alike did hundred times worse and got out without a scratch? Or maybe you genuinely think economical sanctions hurt Putin and the oligarchs? Nope, the russian people, but what would you care, they ARE the enemy, muh.

blizzardboy said:
The Russian public are gullible imbeciles


Oh dear, here we get the snowflake editing 35 times until calling russian people imbeciles doesn't look anymore as breaking the CoC, yet it does. I mean, come on, why not make your own ideas from first hand source, not from some John Oliver moron in need of prerecorded laughter for every sentence. The truth is seldomly fun.

Speak to russians, there are several in this forum: Berserker, Igrik, Sav, Nik, Docent Picolan, Orzie, most of them in their twenties and already more educated than you will ever be. Not only they speak fluently your language but also they forge and deliver original high quality content, they handle complex concepts with ease, they continuously help other people and share their knowledge, the russian people make this forum richer.  

blizzardboy said:
"The West has done meanie things so Russia doing meanie things cant be criticized".


That is arguable, because it is not Russia who wrecked the middle east so Europe is now getting waves of unassimilable migrants challenging our "life satisfaction rate" while you safely run your mouth on the other side of the ocean. Sure, Russia has its own problems, but is not Russia who constantly redefines national borders around around, is it?
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Zenofex
Zenofex


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Kreegan-atheist
posted April 07, 2018 04:41 PM

blizzardboy said:
As usual, a sad attempt to hide your veiled patriotism towards a country that has one of the lowest rates of life satisfaction on Earth. "Russia is bad but everybody else is just as bad". Nope. Wrong. England is an enormously better place, hence the defections from people that dont want to work for an oligarchy of fraticidal sociopaths. #BetterThanYouInEveryWay

And Moscow can expel as many diplomats from its 3rd world country as it wants. Europe/US can afford it far more than they can, and its pretty obvious that besides the dictatorship of Belarus, the entire Eastern bloc is moving away from its former imperialist ruler. Russia is a loser, literally.
I've no idea what "veiled patriotism" means as I am not Russian, nor do I have any great urges to live in Russia (their cuisine sucks). What was the point of that daft ad hominem post anyway? You literally didn't say anything on the topic.

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artu
artu


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted April 07, 2018 04:46 PM
Edited by artu at 19:33, 07 Apr 2018.

Oliver's laughs are not prerecorded, that's the audience. He's really good. And if you're specifically referring to his video on Putin here, the other candidates in the video who were rivals and who had been intimidated or even directly killed, were also going to be potentially voted by the Russian people, not Americans, weren't they. Btw, I don't know about blizz, but I did discuss Putin with Orzie (the other Russian members are completely absent in political threads) and he wasn't exactly a great fan, if you know what I mean. Does the West have double standards when it comes to such issues, certainly. (This is not the comedian's doing though and he's just as critical about his own society.) Those double standards doesnt justify the other side of the conflict though, on the contrary, they make it even worse, because then, the authoritarians use such double standards to gain support in their own community. That is not something to back up, one should be against both and in favor of dealing with one's own authoritarianism as a priority. It is much harder to raise the democratic standards of your own country when one of the additional arguments you have to deal with is how it's all a farce anyway. No democracy is perfect but the thing is not a complete farce either. You say, when you moved to France, you accepted the fact that it was much more progressed than Romania, what if you stayed or returned, voted for Romanian politicians who were in favor of such progress but were confronted by Romanian conservatives who objected to you by arguing French imperialism and how the French dont give a damn about North Africa and so on... Does that change the corruption in Romania or somewhere else you have to be dealing with, no.
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Zenofex
Zenofex


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Kreegan-atheist
posted April 07, 2018 04:55 PM

These things have nothing to do with democracy and authoritarianism, they are standard realpolitik state practices which go beyond the prevalent ideology. Interests usually have little to do with one's love for free elections and dislike for corruption, especially on international level.

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artu
artu


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted April 07, 2018 05:04 PM
Edited by artu at 17:05, 07 Apr 2018.

Yes, the main subject has everything to do with international affairs but the thread recently kind of shifted to Putin himself. Also, while I do agree that international affairs is a different arena, I would be hesitant to completely isolate it from the regimes of the involved parties. Conflicts that damage your economy or international credibility can be disregarded quite faster in more democratic regimes because they have much more potential to end your administration. I know it doesnt always play out like that but sometimes it does, the biggest example would be the Vietnam War, where protests and civil disobedience played great role in how things unfolded.
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Zenofex
Zenofex


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Kreegan-atheist
posted April 07, 2018 05:24 PM

During the Vietnam war you had a relatively balanced world with NATO on one side and the Warsaw Pact on the other, none of which was all too eager to press the other side too hard. Now there is no such balance and you can see it even in this big-scale melodrama triggered by the UK and parroted by dozens of "allies", the US included, while they are failing to present a single evidence about their accusations to this date. Nobody will go as far as to declare war on Russia but such a mass expelling of diplomats over what essentially weights less than a street rumour was unthinkable 30 years ago. And since everyone is being constantly reminded that Putin is the latest Antichrist incarnate, it won't be difficult at all to get away clean even if there are rock-solid evidences against the accusation. It will take the MI-6 director to show up on BBC and declare that he ordered the poisoning to have some effect different from "so nobody knows for sure but the Commies Putin still sucks".

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Salamandre
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posted April 07, 2018 05:31 PM

Well, I didn't make allusion to our russian members as Putin supporters, but mainly to challenge the narrative that russians are some dumb peasants smuggling around and asking to be whipped. Now about Putin and western medias, I talk to them sometimes and in general they have same cold blooded perspective - an already lost game with rules changing every week, but also where Putin has some hidden jokers and knows how to place them. To quote Berserker:

Val, information background is before-war background. They need our resources. They don't need our army or any attempt to influence on world politics. Solution: censoring, propaganda, mass media control, "non-commercial" organizations pressure, financial pressure (sanctions), war (Syria, Ukraine), provocations (stupidest gas attack), etc. It would be funny if we didn't see those methods along the whole history of Russian/USSR. You make maps for Heroes 3. Strong opponents must be destroyed, their cities and mines captured. That's all.

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artu
artu


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted April 07, 2018 05:34 PM
Edited by artu at 17:35, 07 Apr 2018.

@Zenofex

Actually, when it comes to the very reelpolitik you talk about and not symbolic things like expelling diplomats, both sides are still not trying to press so hard. Just look at Syria, the Esad regime is still there because Russia backs it up to prevent another fiasco like Iraq, Crimea didnt evolve into a completly hostile situation either. Things are tense but I wouldnt call it "hotter" than the Cold War era. After the collapse of Soviets, Russia is starting to get back on its feet, and that creates some waves on the water, but it's not exactly a storm, is it.
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Zenofex
Zenofex


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posted April 07, 2018 05:48 PM
Edited by Zenofex at 17:49, 07 Apr 2018.

Of course, they won't directly engage each other but on a lower, provocation level, things are getting too pushy. Expelling diplomats is a hostile action by all rules - certainly not as severe as dropping the diplomacy altogether and kicking the ambassadors but it does deliver the message that you want the other side to follow your terms or else. That's far from a normal dialogue even by the Cold War standards.

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blizzardboy
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posted April 07, 2018 10:32 PM
Edited by blizzardboy at 22:40, 07 Apr 2018.

@sal:

If "learned my language" means "exposed to English-speaking media from age 2", then sure. Honestly, being basic conversant in English might have said something in the 70s but it doesnt say much in 2018.

@zeno

"Balance of power" meaning "the most murderous state in the history of planet Earth vs a coalition of everybody else". Face it: nobody ****ing likes Russian soft power (culture, economics, etc) because Russia is a horrible place controlled by ugly oil mafia brigands. People like American values because they are immensely superior in literally every way: and not just superior to sad little Russia but also to the bigoted and mentally confused Islamic and Hindu world, and the ultra corrupt self-abusive tribal rivalries of Africa. In either scenario: we win by a landslide, and its kind of obvious that Russia's actions are a desperate attempt to maintain solidarity within its pathetic and shrinking sphere of influence.
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Zenofex
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posted April 07, 2018 10:52 PM

That was terrible. You're obviously exercising in low-quality trolling but got in the wrong sub-forum. The VW is thataway, cowboy.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted April 07, 2018 10:53 PM

Did some russian chick cheat on you or what?
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artu
artu


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted April 07, 2018 11:05 PM
Edited by artu at 23:52, 07 Apr 2018.

What you call "American values" have a history older than America, and they are not what comes to people's mind when they think of America as a foreign force, especially in countries where America directly intervenes. And that's quite normal, since America does not intervene to spread those values, it intervenes for its own interests. People who are in the recieving end of this relationship are very much aware of this. You must have heard that during the invasion of Iraq for instance, especially after the weapons of mass destruction bullcrap was exposed, your dislikability among all countries simply skyrocketed. That doesn't mean people would prefer a Russian "influence" either of course, but nobody in this part of the world goes "well, at least America has good values, so let's go along with their plans."

We can also discuss if what you call American values are the real American values, in times when so many of your own citizens lost faith that they are in practice and they vote for someone even like Trump just because they are under the impression he is "anti-establishment" but that is another topic.
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Galaad
Galaad

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posted April 07, 2018 11:19 PM

blizzardboy said:
Face it: nobody ****ing likes Russia


I do.
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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


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posted April 07, 2018 11:26 PM
Edited by blizzardboy at 23:27, 07 Apr 2018.

Galaad said:
blizzardboy said:
Face it: nobody ****ing likes Russia


I do.


*sigh*

I concede.
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artu
artu


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted April 07, 2018 11:54 PM

Galaad said:
blizzardboy said:
Face it: nobody ****ing likes Russia


I do.

So does the Beatles.
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blizzardboy
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posted April 08, 2018 07:08 AM
Edited by blizzardboy at 07:25, 08 Apr 2018.

@artu:

Let me word it differently: American values = Western soft power vs Russian/Eastern soft power.

And yes, love it or hate it, the flagship of Western soft power is in Washington, NOT anywhere in Europe or anywhere else. Even if you have little white racist countries like Switzerland that put forward a better image in terms of crime, corruption, etc, none of those little dots have a lot of influence and they are 100% aware of that fact because population wise they are insignificant and smaller than some major cities. If you put the Big 5 together that would carry a lot of power, but Europe is fractured and suffers from the equivalent of multi-personality disorder, and its redneck populace is retarded enough that they seem to be throwing away their chance to change that. So, again, the flagship of Western culture is in the US and that isnt changing anytime soon, if ever. It isnt in London or in Brussels. It has nothing to do with love/hate/admire/deplore but just the indisputable reality that the US is huge and solidified and when it does or says something EVERYBODY pays attention.

Idealogically China sometimes sees eye to eye with Russia but they still take far more priority with Washington than Moscow. Russia is not a service economy or even so much a manufacturing economy. It is a RESOURCE economy, which basically puts in on par with Africa. It is going to continue to lose soft power and as oil gradually goes obsolete it will be a barren landmass brimming with suicide and poverty and sex trafficking.

Which is why NOT everybody defects equally. There is a reason Russia is forced to gas their wayward operatives because they hate their own country. England & co is saying "enough".

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artu
artu


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted April 08, 2018 07:59 AM

It is not a binary position of completely surrendering to Western soft power versus Eastern soft power, international affairs are much more complicated and everchanging than that. This is WHY the U.S. doesnt like Russian influence getting back on track, not because people would ideologically prefer it or they adore it, but it is another card in the deck now which can be preferred and played against the U.S. Russia may not be an ace of spades but it's not a six of clubs either. Just look at Esad and Syria.

Here is another example for you, although not a major power for the last two centruies, Turkey is not a backwater country, it is a vital ally in the region, it is a member of Nato, EU candidate, has a history full of Russian wars especially after the 18th century. During the Cold War, it was like a border headquarter of Nato, always in sync with U.S. interests. Now, that it's gaining back a little bit of weight and not always seeing eye to eye with such "soft power," coup attempt comes. Russian intelligence warns against it. The result, we are closer with Russia more than ever and distanced to the U.S. But that doesnt mean Turkey now bends its will to Eastern soft power instead of Western soft power. It is still in Nato etc. But it can back up a Russian move on the board or make a move in sync with them, if it doesnt like the particular situation. Or Russia can tell us to back off a bit in a certain situation and that would hold more water than Yeltsin's Russia.

And if we put aside states that are completely puppets, that is how international affairs work, contextual alliences, not "best friends forever." The Middle Easterns know this extremely well, since many countries were screwed over by the U.S. accordingly, backed up first, left out  when things changed later, just read Bernard Lewis about it, it is his number one objection to U.S. Middle Eastern policies, the fuzziness of it all.
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Salamandre
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posted April 08, 2018 10:17 AM

We shall not conflate politic ideology with culture. West is Europe and East is Asia, and the Russian core is geographically, culturally, and genetically in Europe, not in Asia. Also when we associate everything positive with the word "Western" we forget that it was not too long ago a host also to predatory and absolutist empires, right?

Russians have same values, family, friendship - even much stronger -, life values (no death penalty), gender equality, also freedom (although in some different perspective from west). Also highly nationalistic, but so we are and hardly trying to hide it; very corrupt, but so we are at astronomical levels and smartly hiding it, dreaming of a great empire, but so we are (EU, Nato) at some meta-national level. They have same shocking contrasts as we have: space programs and African corruption levels, can build nuclear weapons but not maintain clean public toilets, can produce scientific and artistic genius like no other, but also some fine examples of sadistic barbarism. What's so different once you debunk the propaganda painting the other as evil?

As said Solzhenitsyn once, be nice to Russia. Just because it looks like it cant build a road without craters for potholes, donít assume you can speak to it with haughty airs. Russia is never as strong as it seems. Russia is never as weak as it seems.    
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