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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: The Very Definition of Boner Killer
Thread: The Very Definition of Boner Killer This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT»
revolut1oN
revolut1oN


Famous Hero
posted January 06, 2019 12:28 PM
Edited by revolut1oN at 12:38, 06 Jan 2019.

JollyJoker said:
I'm not sure whether anyone actually plays with RANDOM hero in multiplayer, but IF you do and IF you play templates and settings that force you to a) get a spcific skill fast and b) get it to expert, then what you do is gambling, not playing a game of skill



1. Nobody plays with random heroes, but heroes like Alamar are very solid pick often allowing for much faster breaking than Shakti for example. 2. All templates from Jebus to any mirror or H3DM1 favour the same skills to be pumped asap, thats how game balance works. Even when offered offense early on for example Grindan you are very often forced to skip it to maintain tempo, even though it would allow the hero to be stronger (with better skills) in the long run.

JollyJoker said:
If you play with CHOSEN hero, picking Malekith is a gamble in the first place and going for expert Earth (the 3rd skill) is inviting desaster.


Nobody picks Malekith, but many pros pick Alamar, sometimes Deemer and of course hunt for Earth asap. If playing by your logic, one  can indeed use good planning and a little bit of luck to have even Malekith with many good skills like with Offense, Logistics, Armourer, Earth etc. early on but everything will be on basic level. By the time you will have mass slow and expert logistics the map will already be cleared by the skilled opponent.

JollyJoker said:
Generally spoken, playing templates that reduce the game to getting the right skills ASAP (and force you to disregard perfectly viable skills) is utter folly. Or, to phrase it differently, if you need to get a specific skill set fast, it's not about playing the game, but picking the town/hero combination offering the best chances to actually get it (fastest).


But thats exactly how the game balance works and always worked. However it is now that it becomes obvious, since the multiplayer gameplay level skyrocketed recently. Pump Earth/Log asap, then some good all around skills like Offense, Armourer, Archery, Intelligence, finally just accommodate to the gameplay situation; Resist, Fire, Air on maps with double DD etc., whatever the situation demands.

Ive seen many pro games where Ufretin or Mirlanda become main heroes since they got exp earth fast and then some favourable skills later on.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 06, 2019 12:44 PM

The game always has been about getting mass slow and logistics ASAP, it's the same even for single player and campaigns, those things are just an absolute must in all situations.

I'm honestly surprised HotA did not remove "mass" effect from slow and haste to make those less ridiculous. Seeing how they nerfed Conflux and necromancy, I'd assume they don't have issues with nerfing (perhaps it's because it's technically available to all factions, thus not inducing any castle imbalance?).
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted January 06, 2019 01:39 PM

I am not surprised, I would be surprised if Homm3 still gets wide audience and support if Hota team starts to gamble with core mechanics. I mean, how many people out there you know and which agree each other on how exactly to change slow, earth, eagle eye, etc? So far ideas on that are like anuses, everyone has one and is unique.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 06, 2019 02:35 PM

revolut1oN said:

But thats exactly how the game balance works and always worked.


No, that's not BALANCE, but an agreed upon IMBALANCE in a very specific environment under very specific rules.

As I said, it's more like gambling than playing a game of skill, because if the correct road is known and all you do is following it, then the game is decided by plain LUCK (of the draw). Get Exp Earth or go bust. Boring.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 06, 2019 03:53 PM

JollyJoker said:

As I said, it's more like gambling than playing a game of skill, because if the correct road is known and all you do is following it, then the game is decided by plain LUCK (of the draw). Get Exp Earth or go bust. Boring.

Could'nt agree more.

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted January 06, 2019 06:44 PM

phoenix4ever said:
JollyJoker said:

As I said, it's more like gambling than playing a game of skill, because if the correct road is known and all you do is following it, then the game is decided by plain LUCK (of the draw). Get Exp Earth or go bust. Boring.

Could'nt agree more.

actually, you can do pretty fine without Earth ( except Jeb ). albeit it requires more skill from the player, to keep losses at bare minimum. eventually everyone gets Earth for main battle. maybe 1/100 games where you don't. and still even then is because, like Joker mention, bad planning

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fred79
fred79


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 06, 2019 07:53 PM

Salamandre said:
So far ideas on that are like anuses, everyone has one and is unique.


Yeah, but so many of them look the same.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted January 06, 2019 08:01 PM

fred79 said:
Salamandre said:
So far ideas on that are like anuses, everyone has one and is unique.


Yeah, but so many of them look the same.


They smell the same - they all stink!

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted January 06, 2019 09:25 PM

You both sound experts in the field, can't cope with that
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fred79
fred79


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 07, 2019 03:25 AM

Maurice said:
They smell the same - they all stink!


They don't all smell the same. And if they're clean, they don't stink.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted January 07, 2019 10:19 AM

Based on that answer, I suspect Fred is much more of an expert than me, Salamandre .
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 07, 2019 05:04 PM

I have to go with fred on this one ...

Salamandre said:
I mean, how many people out there you know and which agree each other on how exactly to change slow, earth, eagle eye, etc?


I guess most people would agree upon removing the "mass" effect from slow and haste would do the trick entirely. Still plenty of tactical use for a low level spell, no longer a must have. Though it would make a lot of fanmade maps impossible, since they force you to rely on slow + AI abuse (sometimes artillery as well).

eagle eye - nah, that's just a can of worms. Either ban it entirely or let it rot. Nobody cares about those and introducing new mechanics is dingy at this point of the game's life (which is extremely long and I take that the remaining scene doesn't take innovations kindly).
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted January 07, 2019 08:43 PM

I don't think people would really want slow to become single target, they only have some vague ideas about the spell being op but no precise ideas about how to change that effectively. WoG allows that within one code line yet I didn't see one single individual from the many asking such, materialize their wish, proceed to some real game testing then post results.

Clearly, this never gonna happen but remain to b!tching state.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 07, 2019 09:24 PM
Edited by JollyJoker at 21:25, 07 Jan 2019.

Ridiculous.

Just start by setting all mass spells to Basic spell value-(Slow: Basic -25% for one target, Advanced -50% for one target, Expert -25% for all targets).

Do that for ALL spells (that is, Stone Skin and so on as well). Set Advanced Haste to +6 (instead 5).

Test that.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted January 07, 2019 09:39 PM

yeah, please do that, instead of ranting endlessly. Make yourself useful for once.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 07, 2019 09:42 PM

I tested it and it's fine.

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fred79
fred79


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 07, 2019 10:32 PM

i think we should test that "all buttholes" thing.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 07, 2019 10:42 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 22:45, 07 Jan 2019.

Salamandre said:
I don't think people would really want slow to become single target


but that would literally solve the 'problem' of slow/haste being an absolute must without rendering the spell useless. Isn't that what we want?

it used to work like that in HoMM2 where mass haste was tier 3, mass slow was tier 4 (both were rare on top of that) and obviously they were much sought after. Even as tier 3-4 they were on top when it comes to usefulness. Them being tier 1 is a joke.

in fact, perhaps mass haste/mass slow could be reintroduced as tier 4 spells. Obviously with reduced effect compared to single target one. I don't have much problem with that, except piling more RNG on top of an overpowered spells (okay, it's not so good... )
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Gandalf196
Gandalf196


Known Hero
posted January 07, 2019 11:30 PM

fred79 said:
i think we should test that "all buttholes" thing.


But that goes directly against this topic
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 07, 2019 11:36 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 23:38, 07 Jan 2019.

I think Haste is perfect at +3/+5/+3 mass and Slow is perfect at -30%/-50%/-30% mass, works like that in my game and I'm very satisfied with it.
Haste at +5 mass and Slow -50% mass is incredibly overpowered, they should have been expensive level 4 spells like Prayer when their effects are that powerful, even more so because one cancels the other.

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