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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: E.P.I.C. Visions of HoM&M Thread!
Thread: E.P.I.C. Visions of HoM&M Thread! This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT»
veteran_player
veteran_player


Adventuring Hero
posted August 21, 2020 08:06 PM
Edited by veteran_player at 20:08, 21 Aug 2020.

This latest thread is meant as a continuation of our HoM&M-theme, community-spirited thread-making initiative!

Feel free to post anything you want! - Whether HoM&M-related - or Not!
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veteran_player
veteran_player


Adventuring Hero
posted August 22, 2020 08:01 PM

What makes a good Heroes game

Being the first and only poster so far, I would like to summarize my experience in reply to another thread...
:     http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=46303

What makes a good Heroes game?...
...What makes a good Strategy game?...

Alon said:
Heroes 3 was great in 1999. So were Alpha Centauri and Starcraft.


FirePaladin said:
veteran_player said:
For me, Sid Meyer's Alpha Centauri was a decisively better strategy game than the popularly/(nostalgically?) beloved Heroes of Might & Magic III.


From what point of view? Visual, strategical, feeling, etc.?

And even so, I believe HoMM should be very similar in mechanics to H3. Otherwise, it's not HoMM (as it happened several times).


veteran_player said:

From the thematic point of view! Alpha Centauri was a beautifully crafted, immersive space simulation. It connected with you, the player, from the planet's perspective. Both games being released in 1999, SM's AC left the player with a deeper, more meaningful earthly experience than teen-favorite HoMM3.


- visually rewarding - graphically engaging - strategically challenging - exploration and discovery!
...without being "handicapped" to the third installment(Heroes 3! )...


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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted August 23, 2020 12:13 AM

The problem with trying to ditch HoMM3 is that that game was a development of HoMM2, so getting too far away makes it no longer recognisable as a HoMM game.

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veteran_player
veteran_player


Adventuring Hero
posted August 23, 2020 12:27 AM

MattII said:
The problem with trying to ditch HoMM3 is that that game was a development of HoMM2, so getting too far away makes it no longer recognisable as a HoMM game.


Like a forum thread has different branches with replies, so does the HoMM series have different titles and incarnations. There is no ideal, definitive solution. HoMM3 is just one branch of this tbs, that is popular with the younger players, but the roots are HoMM1 and the trunk is HoMM2!
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted August 23, 2020 01:09 AM
Edited by MattII at 08:32, 23 Aug 2020.

No, they're all in the same 'branch'. H2 is H1 with secondary skills, H3 is H2 with spell schools, H5 is H3 with perks and faction skills, etc.

It was the times when they (first 3DO/NWC, then Ubisoft) tried something revolutionary that they screwed up.

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veteran_player
veteran_player


Adventuring Hero
posted August 23, 2020 04:45 PM

MattII said:
H3 is H2 with spell schools


Spell schools(with some magic-favored imbalance, imo!), notwithstanding, H3 doesn't measure up enough to lead and represent the series. In the broader strategy field, H1 and H5 stand out better when pitted against other stand-alone strategy contestants. While, H2 was a good sequel, H3! has become an internet fixation(imho!)...


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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted August 23, 2020 05:04 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 17:05, 23 Aug 2020.

It's not just fixation, H2 is really a downgraded H3, tbh, for most people (yes, I played all HoMM games). The only actual thing that changed is the graphical style, everything else was just an evolution of the stuff in H2.

Almost everyone who has played both can tell you this, not because they have a "fixation" or "childhood memory" of H3 (dang, some of them weren't even born when H3 was released), but because H3 is truly just an upgraded H2. Now, I'm not saying people who like H2 more don't exist (I personally know some), but their main reasons are graphic and they're also the minority)

And after all of this, I'd rather say you have a fixation on people seeming to have a fixation on liking H3 more for no apparent reason (although I admit, H2 dragons were dope, but still, I honestly like H3 more than H2 or H1).

(No offense meant in the entire post)
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veteran_player
veteran_player


Adventuring Hero
posted August 23, 2020 05:39 PM

FirePaladin said:
It's not just fixation, H2 is really a downgraded H3, tbh, for most people (yes, I played all HoMM games).


Another poster, thank God!

I appreciate the criticism, it is the healthy thing to do on your part! It is also an essential part of constructive dialogue!

The HoM&M series encompasses and unites us as fans and community-members! I am not saying that H3 is a bad release, but that it is one that has become outgrown in comparison to other releases and contestants...

Actually, to be fair, thankfully, after so many years, much of the fan-base has matured - as exemplified by this intelligent and modernistic intercourse on our part!

Heroes 3 is a part of this phenomenon, one that has become inflated by idle internet users, imho.

Here, on this forum, I try to "draw" - in words... The broader history of the subject, hopefully to our common benefit and that of future generations of fans and internet users!

Thanks for your companionship and participation!
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veteran_player
veteran_player


Adventuring Hero
posted August 23, 2020 06:16 PM

veteran_player said:
Heroes 3 is a part of this phenomenon, one that has become inflated by idle internet users, imho.


And by this, I mean "S.P.A.M. P.L.A.Y.E.R.S."
...
Little content... but a lot of participation!!!

The Heroes Community is actually better than that!
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Jiriki9
Jiriki9


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
posted August 23, 2020 08:13 PM
Edited by Jiriki9 at 20:14, 23 Aug 2020.

Well, the point is that H3 has aged MUCH better than many other games, and, to me, certainly better than H2. (And I did start with H2, although briefly before changing to H3). The point is that H3 is really easy and good-feeling to return to, much more so than most other parts. That goes especially for MP, imho.
Also, as a sidenote, I am not sure that H3 is a favorite of "young players". Depends on who you call young, certainly. But I guess (and have read so in the past), that there are a lot of players who have entered the series with H5, and they have a tendency to that part. Fascinating though, I never got the feeling H6 or H7 have managed thus even by an inch - which is their tragedy as they did neither satisfy the fanbase nor reach a large new target group...

Matt has summoned up how the best-received HoMM-games evolved from one another quite well. I agree, as well, that the more "change-oriented" parts of the series were screwed up. I do not think that all about these parts were bad, though. H4, f.e., had a lot of good ideas - it was mainly bad execution.

BTW, I am 100% unsure what you want to do with this thread...

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted August 23, 2020 09:08 PM

veteran_player said:
MattII said:
H3 is H2 with spell schools


Spell schools(with some magic-favored imbalance, imo!), notwithstanding, H3 doesn't measure up enough to lead and represent the series. In the broader strategy field, H1 and H5 stand out better when pitted against other stand-alone strategy contestants. While, H2 was a good sequel, H3! has become an internet fixation(imho!)...


H1 was a good game in its day, but H3 is better in terms of mechanics and graphics, and H5 represents a tonal shift.

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veteran_player
veteran_player


Adventuring Hero
posted August 23, 2020 09:14 PM

Jiriki9 said:
BTW, I am 100% unsure what you want to do with this thread...


#1 entertain
#2 educate
#3 try and evolve the genre/series past Heroes 3!


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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted August 23, 2020 09:27 PM

You complain a lot about Heroes 3, but thus far you haven't exactly (AFAICT) offered us much in the way of mechanics or concrete ideas to move beyond it.

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veteran_player
veteran_player


Adventuring Hero
posted August 23, 2020 10:33 PM

MattII said:
You complain a lot about Heroes 3, but thus far you haven't exactly (AFAICT) offered us much in the way of mechanics or concrete ideas to move beyond it.


I did, actually. In my previous thread, to which you also were a major contributor.



My main idea was to design H8 as more of a hero-centric open-ended strategy, by allowing the heroes to support/fight with a larger variety of creatures from different alignments. An idea I got from HoMM1. But adapted! - to the already evolved and successful HoMM5! Increasing the number of hero army slots to at least 8 or 9. So they are more independent, alignment-neutral, and free from the strategy-draining hassle of depending on weekly castle creature growth so much...
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted August 23, 2020 10:44 PM
Edited by MattII at 22:51, 23 Aug 2020.

Mm, not in favour of ditching towns/resource management, as those are an integral part of what makes HoMM what it is.

Extra slots would be nice, except that IMO a fixed number of slots are an impediment to begin with.

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veteran_player
veteran_player


Adventuring Hero
posted August 23, 2020 10:58 PM
Edited by veteran_player at 02:28, 24 Aug 2020.

MattII said:
Mm, not in favour of ditching towns/resource management, as those are an integral part of what makes HoMM what it is.

Extra slots would be nice, except that IMO a fixed number of slots are an impediment to begin with.


Well, each HoMM is really only a program/a computer application. It is the people/fans that have used them over the years that comprise the integral part. And I, for one, am not proposing ditching town/resource management, but maybe redirecting it, away from the town itself, and onward onto the adventure map(and whatever lies therein!)
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted August 23, 2020 11:30 PM
Edited by MattII at 00:33, 24 Aug 2020.

So like in HoMM4 where you had untapped veins of resources, but needed a hero to build a mine there? Not a bad idea.

Here's an idea, the ability for heroes to parley with neutral towns, maybe buying off the defenders.

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veteran_player
veteran_player


Adventuring Hero
posted August 24, 2020 04:55 PM

MattII said:
So like in HoMM4 where you had untapped veins of resources, but needed a hero to build a mine there? Not a bad idea.



Thanks to you, Matt, we've been able to articulate a potentially successful new strategy path for the series to evolve in! Building upon the historic success of both Heroes 1 and Heroes 5! The - Heroes 3 - focused approach of MMHVII - having proved itself to be a blind alley and a dead-end, there is still light at the end of the strategic tunnel that is HoM&M design and development!
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PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted August 24, 2020 05:57 PM

I think what kills the most these games, for me at least, is the multiplayer feature. Multiplayer sort of forces the game to balance factions at some point (not throroughly, of course). This is the main reason why I started to lose my steam of likeness to HoMM when the third installment was released. Now, everyone had 1 ultimate beast which somewhat similar attributes; angels added to humans. That was so anticlimax; I had so much fun having paladins and crusaders fighting dragons, and that was because they were not as strong, but they had their talents to overcome the differences. Now, everyone had upgrades; I confess that back then I thought it was awesome. After some time, not so much. Having upgrades just for the sake of having it felt hollow.

It makes me cringe reading things like: 'if you don't have certain creature at day 7, you'll lose'. I might be generalizing a bit, as an example, but I don't feel like strategy when you have a decision-making strategy that is cemented like that.

The Heroes game I most like is H2. Things were uneven. Just like how they should be. The universe, the world, beings and, what derivates from that, fantasy, is not fair nor ethical. You had crusaders fighting dragons, a single genie which could break half the number of an entire stack of enemies, ghosts that added to their own numbers when killing peasants (this one was gamebreaking, but somewhat funny), you had 'spells' instead of schools, so you were not debating how awful Fire School seemed in comparison to Air School (and that goddamn Dimension Door brought dread when the enemy had it), just some units had upgrades, whenever they seemed like changing something, some real improvements, even coming with very high costs. And some other details. Then there's the Heroes I played the most, which is H4. Its exotic nature might have taken hold of me, specially having heroes in combat. And also because the game seemed uneven again. Having choices of dwellings in town, no upgrades (and never missed them either), some cool mapmaking designs, and, of course, a lot of problems; although I was spoiled by Equilibris mod, that helped fixing tons of features. The idea of heroes in battle always appeased me and the skill system felt fitting. In H2 or H3, they were basically statues, if you didn't have a book of spells. However, having a hero beat down scores of dragons by only kicking them was lame as well. Still, the feature could have been kept. But then it came H5 and I lost my appettite. It was the last one I really played (not mentioning H6 demo, when I realized things were going downhill forever), most likely to get a feeling of the factions, play the campaigns and lose half of my life waiting AI turns. The 3D addition was another fluke, given that it was a pointless feature, as far as I was concerned. Funny thing is that when I was younger, I imagined 3D townscreens. And when they came, my PC barely could display that with proper rendering and, again, there was no point in it. But that was that, heroes back to the backlines, 3497863498364893 upgrades, introduction of Ashan and Warcraft-like visuals, my BLAH! vampire gone, my BLEAAH! lich gone. One thing that got me sort of divided in H5 was the sort of turn the game had, not really turn-based, but somewhat like speed-based, where you could have units moving and acting twice, thrice before another slower unit could act. It made sense. But all in all, it might be one of the most balanced (and less realistic) of the lot. And that chess-like battlefield seemed to be shrinking.

For multiplayer and competitions, the game should have customized balanced features, as to get it even, if that was the necessity. But for the normal playthrough, there should be a way to have it crude, brute, at least have this option.

So, it all come down to this. What makes a good Heroes game? It's a very personal question that's has no proper answer. Some key features, perhaps, keeping its gender, factions, units, fantasy setting, heroes with armies, lots of exploration on maps. For me, I would add: having uneven factions, heroes on the battlefield, cut upgrades when there's no need, add equipment (as a variable), make unique heroes (not one with a single specialty but a copy-paste of another, if having the same skill set), have other siege-mechanics, governing influence on the surroundings, interaction with geology, buildings and objects, weather, uneven battle-field, which high and low ground, and different sizes, army-size limitation.

Of course, adding this stuff, for other people, might be completely irrelevant. But hell, one can imagine, until next UBI's fiasco.
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frostymuaddib
frostymuaddib


Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
posted August 24, 2020 06:52 PM

PandaTar said:
I think what kills the most these games, for me at least, is the multiplayer feature. Multiplayer sort of forces the game to balance factions at some point (not throroughly, of course).


I couldn't agree more. I'm all for multiplayer where it makes sense. SC2 did that rather well, factions in multiplayer are one thing, but in single player are/can be completely different. But, I do not think that Heroes games should be multiplayer oriented, the game loses the charm. The only multiplayer that makes sense for me is when I'm playing with a friend against several boosted AI, on giant maps - that way there is still a sense of adventure.

This multiplayer balancing is the thing that killed my interest in HotA in the end.

Lately I do not play Heores as much as I used to, bun when I do, I play H5.5 and I do some mapmaking.

But as mister Panda said: "It's a very personal question that's has no proper answer". For me, H5.5 would be a good basis (that is already great on its own) for a new Heroes game.
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"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN

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