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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: Firebirds in HotA
Thread: Firebirds in HotA This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 16, 2020 07:50 PM

Firebirds in HotA

Firebirds lost their Fire Immunity in HotA and instead gained 50% Fire Resistance. That means they are also vulnerable to Blind, Berserk and Frenzy, which they should'nt be. I assume they did this because external dwellings accumulate in HotA and if you find an external Pyre and get some fast Firebirds you have the possibility to cast Armageddon. (If you have learned Armageddon that is.)
Was this change necessary and do you also believe they did it because external dwellings accumulate??

If anyone knows how to make Firebirds Fire Immune again, I would like to know how.

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AlfWithCake
AlfWithCake


Known Hero
posted September 16, 2020 08:38 PM
Edited by AlfWithCake at 20:38, 16 Sep 2020.

 I know how, you install ERA

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 16, 2020 08:56 PM

Sure, if it worked with HotA.

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BTB
BTB


Known Hero
posted September 16, 2020 10:25 PM

Mind magic immunity

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 16, 2020 11:13 PM

Yeah, but then they will also become immune to Hypnotize, Mirth and Sorrow, which they were not supposed to and they still take half damage from Fire spells.

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BTB
BTB


Known Hero
posted September 17, 2020 12:28 AM

Oh, you want to just make them fire immune again.

I'm guessing that HotA overwrites the fire immunity function so you can't just set the bit again (or, more likely, it's USING that bit)

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 17, 2020 07:23 AM

Yes Firebirds still has a "40" as Fire Immunity, so they have implemented it some other way.
The did the same with some skills and building requirements, it's annoying cause you are stuck with their changes. If only they had done it through hex editing, so it could at least be changed again.

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Baronus
Baronus


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted September 17, 2020 08:51 AM

Its weak ability.
I think better will be 25% rebirth. If unit is reduced to 75% strenght will automatically rebirth to 100%. If its eg. 12%, rebirth is at the end of battle.
For phonixes 50% rebirth the same type.
And growth 2 not 4.
NWC rebirth is good idea but weak realisation.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted September 17, 2020 11:19 AM

I guess the point was/is to further nerf conflux. Firebirds 15 speed + fire immunity is a deadly combo, and there's was even no need of upgrading the birds to make powerful arma bombers. I belive it has nothing to do with creature dwelling changes. Conflux is currently seen as the 2nd strongest town, so I guess they had a point of changing that as Well.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted September 17, 2020 11:31 AM
Edited by FirePaladin at 11:32, 17 Sep 2020.

^
The main point of the thread still is replacing the res with immunity again though.
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 17, 2020 11:31 AM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 11:34, 17 Sep 2020.

Why is Conflux still seen as that strong in HotA?
Phoenix growth was nerfed, Conflux became very expensive, 5 out of 7 units can't be resurrected and 4 out of 7 takes double damage from certain spells. Is it because of Armageddon?, well Conflux can't learn Armageddon in their town, so they have to learn it somewhere else. But Armageddon is still too powerful in HotA imo. Or maybe it's because of Magic University?
I would currently rate Conflux 7th with my own mod.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted September 17, 2020 12:23 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 12:25, 17 Sep 2020.

Pure numbers certainly don't support the "Conflux is strong in HotA" theory, but maybe there's more than meets the eye.

It's probably my least played & least liked town, so I can't say much about advanced Conflux strategies and abuse besides what was used back in the days (and what was basically obliterated by HOTA), namely bird bomb (armageddon) grail rush, sprite abuse against neutrals, Luna abuse vs. stupid neutrals, yada yada.
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted September 17, 2020 12:29 PM

^
In the hands of a player who knows what he's doing, Luna and Sprites ASAP is still very OP no matter what, as well as all magic schools available by the time Luna picks up her Sprites from the town (unless hero chaining is used to deliver Sprites to Luna). And until you get Sprites, you can use Air and Water Elems.
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"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 17, 2020 12:58 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 12:59, 17 Sep 2020.

But even Sprites were nerfed in HotA, it takes forever to get them now. You will most likely get them after you get Pyre, Vault of Ashes, Garden of Life + Magic University!
I don't see the point of getting all magic schools, 2 or 3 is more than enough.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted September 17, 2020 01:35 PM

FirePaladin said:
^
In the hands of a player who knows what he's doing, Luna and Sprites ASAP is still very OP no matter what


Yeah but with magic school requirement for sprites, the buildup is super awkward. You can't snowball as hard as in the past and you don't get rewarded with 4 phoenixes per week anymore so your snowball is even further limited because it's nowhere near as good against conservatories and stuff.

Though perhaps the inclusion of firebird conservatory in HotA does fix this slightly.
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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted September 17, 2020 04:38 PM

It's not actually a theory, I think there's a general agreement in MP community to rate Conflux as the second strongest. Ofc, this is just one point of view, but it tells us for sure that Conflux can get going faster than most towns. This is because

1) Luna is more or less op hero, and can do extremely stupid fights with no support from her army. She also allows Conflux to fight in two fronts (other hero has the army) without any kind of chaining. Therefore, Conflux can creature some insane early game tempo.

2) Overall great hero pool. Planeswalkers have 3 attack to start with, elementalists have +1 stat point compared to other magic heroes, and nearly all heroes have very usable starting skills. Ciele is amazing hero in early as well, and playing as Grindan kinda feels a bit of cheating as well.

3) Magic university allows you to get earth magic always and asap,  not needing to stress if you manage to learn it or not naturally.

4) Pixies allow all your heroes to travel fast very cheap, and there's no need of spending an early build turn to develop fast troops to your secondary heroes, if you're into that kind of strategy.

5) Air/Storm elementals are great tier 2 units.

6) Firebirds - as an unupgraded unit - outspeed nearly all units, and Phoenixes are the fastets creature in the game. Also, while there is no more double growth, you can still have +1 tier 7 creature, and now there are Red towers as well. And yeah, the arma immunity grands another way of playing the game.


The elemental weaknesses are not actually a thing, they don't really play any kind of role in hero vs. hero battles. If all creatures would be weak to one certain element or if there was a way to hoard a certain elemental, then that could actually mean something. But since that's not the case, the weaknesses are only there for neutral fights.

The ressurrection mostly not being available doesn't actually matter. If one is willing to have creatures that can be ressurrected, then the unneeded parts of the flux army can be replaced. I can understand the way of willing to play with an army only consisting of creatures from one town type, but unfortunately, that's not exactly a very good strategy.

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 17, 2020 04:57 PM
Edited by Phoenix4ever at 16:58, 17 Sep 2020.

Hourglass said:
I can understand the way of willing to play with an army only consisting of creatures from one town type, but unfortunately, that's not exactly a very good strategy.

If Town Portal only takes you to nearest town and the map is'nt filled with stupid creature banks, then it can be a necessary strategy.

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Zaio-Baio
Zaio-Baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 17, 2020 11:10 PM

Lets not forget that in hota there is the tournament rules setting. If its on then:
Ban on hit-and-run: while attacking an enemy hero, your hero cannot retreat in the first round if he/she cast any spell. The ban does not apply to the defending hero.
Which hurts conflux the most since they have the fastest unit in the game. In other words you can no longer attack with just phoenixes, cast arma/implosion on opponents army and then retreat.

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Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted September 17, 2020 11:51 PM

In the chess world, no one ban chess opening 1. e4 e5, so white has chance of winning, but if black plays 1. - c5, it means equal strong or black plays 1. - c6, it's a draw. White plays 1. d4 also we don't ban it 1. d4 means equal strong, if black gives an answer 1. - f5, etc then black loses the game. White has blind and garbage opening moves, it happened rarely. But black is casucial player.

So heroes fan/freak should be casucial player. But no. Full disabled player with dwarf brain. I'm sorry.

Another what? Single player and map never seen Conflux. Impossible maps like Salamandre, but he hasn't selected Conflux. Because his resurrection trick, etc. No one mapmaker selected Conflux. Only one map in the internet, he or she gave many dwellings, etc and go to against opponent, what? All creatures are destroyed, but beaten the enemies, how? Normal that cannot resurrection. Hmm map has twisted, first player must building Cloak of the Undead King. I haven't used and I also tested.

Why a impossible Conflux? 4 Phoenixes like skeletons. Ok nerfed, and rule yet, no. Casucial player must have.

I make a map, name's Homecoming. The strongest team is Conflux has +2800hp, the last Tower has +2460hp. No problem. Those h4 stats. More 340hp. But can't resurrection.

Idea what? Only non-living resurrection 5lvl spell. So nerf and casucial freely. Do you have fear? I play Heroes. I accept win and lose. No problem with nerfed or rule, but I don't like that first player advanced a new level, it after playing normal. If he/she thinks so.  

How?
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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted September 18, 2020 12:04 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 00:04, 18 Sep 2020.

HotA also added a creature bank that gives Firebirds I think.

Deleting creature bank meta would allow to make some units such as this useful again.

Plus they are also vulnerable to Armageddon
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https://www.moddb.com/mods/greatest-mod

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