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| Thread: I just had a topic erased |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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violent_flower
Promising
Supreme Hero
Almost there.
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posted November 10, 2020 09:51 PM |
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Minion said:
Well? 
Waiting xD
Well....I can't get a penalty just yet, just recently got back on. That and I will need to prepare myself if Gootch gets crazy, he will probably hit me upside the head with it from where he sits.
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Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted November 10, 2020 09:53 PM |
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violent_flower
Promising
Supreme Hero
Almost there.
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posted November 10, 2020 09:56 PM |
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Minion said:
Got it haha xD
If you have ever had the pleasure/displeasure of witnessing the unsubtle way that he and I can tear this up you would either need popcorn for the show or un$#%$ your eyes.
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Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted November 10, 2020 10:00 PM |
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The_Gootch said:
Corribus,
4. I've still never forgiven you for being a libertarian. Meritocracy is a myth in this country. Trump proved it.
I'm not officially a libertarian. I do lean left on social issues and right on fiscal issues, and agree with some libertarian positions on foreign policy, but I am not a member of the libertarian party. Or any party, for that matter. I was once a member of the Republican party, mostly due to inertia from my upbringing, but I renounced my affiliation once I realized that joining a political party is basically signing up for intellectual slavery. In any case Republicans have basically nothing in common with conservatism any more. Frankly, I don't even know what they stand for now and their behavior lately has been just appalling.
So no, I am not a leftist, or a rightist. In fact, I like to think of myself as just a critical thinker. I'm a scientist, after all. Unbiased decision making is a part of my professional training. That doesn't mean I'm perfect, but it is nevertheless my inclination.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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violent_flower
Promising
Supreme Hero
Almost there.
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posted November 10, 2020 10:09 PM |
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Corribus said:
The_Gootch said:
Corribus,
4. I've still never forgiven you for being a libertarian. Meritocracy is a myth in this country. Trump proved it.
I'm not officially a libertarian. I do lean left on social issues and right on fiscal issues, and agree with some libertarian positions on foreign policy, but I am not a member of the libertarian party. Or any party, for that matter. I was once a member of the Republican party, mostly due to inertia from my upbringing, but I renounced my affiliation once I realized that joining a political party is basically signing up for intellectual slavery. In any case Republicans have basically nothing in common with conservatism any more. Frankly, I don't even know what they stand for now and their behavior lately has been just appalling.
So no, I am not a leftist, or a rightist. In fact, I like to think of myself as just a critical thinker. I'm a scientist, after all. Unbiased decision making is a part of my professional training. That doesn't mean I'm perfect, but it is nevertheless my inclination.
Be prepared to get jumped on, some can't fathom not belonging to a party, they find it indecisive. I love your take on it, "intellectual slavery." I examine the policy not the person, I don't care if they can't figure out where the cigars are really supposed to go, how they got their money, what they did with their cousin while playing spin the bottle at summer camp. Furthermore the president actually plays little role in implementing policy anyway.
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Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted November 10, 2020 10:29 PM |
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For any party today, indecisive is not being on their side, basically. My stance is pretty much like Corribus's. I see advantages and disadvantages on both sides and I notice people in need of both sides either, but no side is perfect, no side has all the answers. There's no same recipe for two different people. And I see that as a very good thing.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted November 10, 2020 10:37 PM |
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violent_flower said:
If you have ever had the pleasure/displeasure of witnessing the unsubtle way that he and I can tear this up you would either need popcorn for the show or un$#%$ your eyes.
Oh popcorn it is, lol
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The_Gootch
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
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posted November 10, 2020 10:58 PM |
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violent_flower said:
some things never change.
"That's just the way it is
Ah, but don't you believe them"
~Bruce Hornsby
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violent_flower
Promising
Supreme Hero
Almost there.
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posted November 10, 2020 11:10 PM |
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The_Gootch said:
violent_flower said:
some things never change.
"That's just the way it is
Ah, but don't you believe them"
~Bruce Hornsby
Yes, that is the way it is, although sometimes there is peace in that.
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Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted November 10, 2020 11:41 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 00:05, 11 Nov 2020.
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To be clear, policy disagreement had little to do with why I gave up political party affiliation - although being a centrist made it easy. I gave it up because I found myself voting for candidates ONLY because they had the same political party affiliation that I had. Giving up my party affiliation was liberating. It forced me to actually think of candidates as people with views that didn't fit into a box. I had to research them. I wanted to research them, and consult multiple sources to do so. It also just made me feel more empowered, like I was voting for a candidate because I wanted to, not because my club said they were the best fit for me.
I don't talk politics with my parents, but they are Republicans and they vote Republican. They are also not stupid people. They surely voted for Trump. If I asked them why, the conversation would probably go something like:
Why did you vote for Trump?
Because he is the Republican candidate.
Yeah but why did you decide he was the one you wanted to vote for?
Republicans vote for Republicans.
Who did you vote for sheriff?
The Republican.
Why?
Because he's a Republican.
But what does he believe in? What makes him a good sheriff?
...
Sure, the conversation would be peppered with pieces of information that they learned from Fox News, which is on the TV all the time at their house, but that would be more or less the gist of it. Republicans vote for the Republican candidate, full stop. Republicans watch Fox New and only Fox News, full stop. If I bring up some piece of information contrary to Trump that was aired on CNN, my dad would tell me in no uncertain terms that he doesn't watch CNN. My dad would probably call it fake news, and maybe throw in a communist or socialist or two for good measure, because fake news is what Trump says it is, and what Trump says is affirmed on Fox News, and Fox News is all my dad - not an uneducated man, mind you - a good Republican, watches and trusts. Never mind the fact that the Republican party is not the Republican party he grew up with, or even the Republican party of the Bush years. But my dad is a Republican, dammit, and whatever the Republican party says is good for him is good for him, and that's so who he votes for.
Political parties are poison to reason, thought, and an open flow of ideas. We lock ourselves in intellectual cages because we are, at our psychological cores, tribalists. We like to belong to a club, and only our club is good. Worse, our clubs don't even just disagree on policy issues any more. We disagree on basic facts, we exist in different realities, realities created by our self-selected media sources. Compromise isn't even possible on policy, because we can't even agree on what is real or not. When Kellyanne Conway infamously word-vomited about how they have alternative facts, I thought it was a joke, but it's not. It's the new paradigm.
My wife asked me the other day how evangelicals can vote for Trump when he seems to be the antithesis of everything that's Christian. I answered that it's because they are Republican, and their Republicanism, not their religion, determines where they get their information. They watch Fox News because that's what Republicans watch. And Fox News feeds them a reality that's different from our reality. They don't make decisions based on the same information that we make decisions based on, so of course their conclusions make no sense to us. Their (beliefs) facts are different from my (beliefs) facts. But to be sure, there's not necessarily a flaw in their logic when they say they love Trump. Two people can arrive at different conclusions with the same logic if their input information is different. If their media source tells them Trump is a good Christian, and they don't trust media sources that tell them differently, are they wrong to vote the way they do?
Of course the facts are the facts. There is only one objective truth out there - we operate only on what we think or believe the facts really are. We can only have mutually agreeable beliefs on truth versus fiction if there are nonpartisan and authoritative sources of information. But those don't exist any more - or, rather, we do not know how to access them - or, more so, we place trust in sources we think are authoritative, but actually aren't because these sources artfully blend fact and opinion, or they have agendas beyond giving us truthful information. Media is big business, and Fox News makes a lot of money by convincing Republicans that Fox News is the only reliable source of information.
The more it goes on, the more we become slaves to political parties and the media forces that feed them, the more the walls of our self-constructed bubbles crystalize. The more resistant to non-complimentary information we become. The more we hate the Other Side, the more polarized our political beliefs, the more extreme our viewpoints, the more outlandish our perception of reality, the more it is disconnected from the real truth, a truth we probably won't ever know or won't trust if it is shown to us. The more persecuted we feel when we are challenged or criticized. The more we find comfort in extreme views or even less credible sources of information. The more trouble we have even judging a good source of information from a bad source. The more we find truth in conspiracy.
The closer we get to autocracy or anarchy.
Political parties are poison. As thinking citizens of a free society it is our responsibility to think critically of the information that is fed to us. Seek out good quality, non-partisan new sources. Failing that, at least read from as many media outlets as you can. Democrat? Watch Fox News. You may hate it, but at least it gives your views context. Republican? Watch anything but Fox News. Try to do it every day. When I wake up, I go to about 20 news sites, including Fox News, just to see what's there. If you watch only one media source, the same one every day, every week, every month, you're part of the problem. If your preferred media outlet interviews a political candidate and doesn't ask at least one challenging question, they aren't doing their job. Complain to them. If you don't, you're part of the problem. Research the candidates before an election, think about whether they actually stand for what you believe in. If you don't, you're part of the problem. Give a candidate from another party a chance, go to their website, read what they have to say. You might not agree with it, but you might find that some things they say make some sense. If you don't at least go in with an open mind, you're part of the problem. The independent press is the fourth arm of government. Embrace that. Celebrate it when they give politicians a hard time. It's their job. It makes Democracy function. Demand it loudly and often. If you don't, you're part of the problem. Don't fall for conspiracy theories. If you repost something without seriously considering whether it makes sense, or comes from a reliable source of information, you're part of the problem. If you go to the voting booth and you vote for the "Republican Ticket" or the "Democrat Ticket", you're part of the problem. Be informed. If you don't recognize half the names on the ballot, and you vote anyway, you're part of the problem. Talk to other people about their views. If theirs don't agree with yours, ask why they believe what they do. Listen to their answers, and think before you respond. Consider the possibility that their facts may be better than yours. If you don't, you are part of the problem. Especially, trust in evidence for political claims and actions. If evidence isn't presented, demand it. If you don't, you are part of the problem. If a media outlet doesn't demand it, they are part of the problem. And if you keep trusting that outlet as credible, YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.
Don't be part of the problem. Don't join a political party. Don't get your information from one place. Don't be a dupe or a stooge or a sap or a lemming. Think. Question. Educate yourself. Trust in credentialed experts. Be open minded. Demand accountability. Treat people with respect and dignity. Be slow to mete out judgement. Be fair.
And wear a snowing mask.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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The_Gootch
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
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posted November 11, 2020 12:05 AM |
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This level of detail and honesty requires quid pro quo. I have the day off tomorrow.
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evildustructor
Known Hero
Pizza Man dominos pizza yummy
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posted November 11, 2020 12:50 AM |
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enojyed the read 
I do think neutrality is very important in having a healthy argument as well as keeping yourself in check. However, some points struck me as faulty - I fear there can never be a fully neutral side in any political climate. TV and media simply are the sole source of information for those people, and to get their attention political work from the ground up must be done.
Corribus said:
Political parties are poison to reason, thought, and an open flow of ideas. We lock ourselves in intellectual cages because we are, at our psychological cores, tribalists. We like to belong to a club, and only our club is good. Worse, our clubs don't even just disagree on policy issues any more. We disagree on basic facts, we exist in different realities, realities created by our self-selected media sources. Compromise isn't even possible on policy, because we can't even agree on what is real or not. When Kellyanne Conway infamously word-vomited about how they have alternative facts, I thought it was a joke, but it's not. It's the new paradigm.
Agreed, despite us most probably having striking ideological differences in our politics and general way of thinking. I think embracing this kind of mentality disconnects us from the reality we want to achieve. It is true that the sense of belonging fulfills us as human beings, but there must be a connection to make a democracy truly work. Tribalism is something that we, in my opinion, should strive to move forward from, not embrace - despite it arguably being an integral part of our nature.
However, how does not being a member of a political party, despite all its faults, help the situation? A fence-sitting mentality surely gets an upper hand in discussions but still I can't help but think it doesn't do any good in a fair political climate. The american system is very unique in its ways, considering the winner-takes-all electoral college and how the registration and party structures work - I would probably describe it as one of the least fluid ones in the western hemisphere. The mentality not to pick a side might work for a private person, but for a political organizer this mentality is probably harmful for the democracy itself, which is why I personally do not stand behind it. I feel like the democratic and the republican ballots will for a long time be how the system works and influencing the democracy in good ways outside of the two-party system will be an extremely hard mission considering the frigid system in place, and any good aspiration for political change has to - most probably - be done within those parties.
Why I personally regard it as strategically bad is because every person might be a possible organizer in a workplace or in a democratic arena. Recommending to people not to be part of a party once in their lifetime might be good for their health, or good to try to see the whole political spectrum from an unbiased viewpoint, but straying too far from the system will just give more power to both the parties and increasing the divide between average people and professional politicians. While I would not personally endorse a party such as the democratic one, I think I would probably sign up for it - it would simply be the only way for me to go (from what I can see) as I am politically organized myself where I live. Working within the system and trying to make your voice heard for change (or the preservation of the current status if that is one's preference) is the best alternative there is for the democracy to work. Clear cynicism has, in my opinion, no place in politics trying to move society forward, which we can see from basically every successful politician there is - every single one of them has some kind of a plan forward. And of course only the minority strives to be a career politician, but personal responsibility still stands clear as a good part of working democracies.
I fully agree with the notion that factionalism serves no direct purpose and is dangerous for the democracy, but at the same time I feel a clear platform for information must exist for these commandments to work. As you say, today's media climate is rather chaotic to say the least - but asking people to not pick a side and do their own research runs with the big risk of people gathering around conspiracy theories. I feel the system behind the wheels must be of a whole other nature for the self-education mentality to work. Facts are always facts (peer-reviewed studies and such, "facts" as in findings through the scientific method), and one opinion is probably of a more correct nature than another until the opposite has been proven scientifically. Some matters are of course much more complex, but I feel the general issue usually has a factually correct answer despite it all. For self-education to work, there must be a pretext of one actually being capable to do so without finding "alternative facts" (like how youtube's recommendations radicalize people, both young and old, with ease) - I think the whole education system has to come to some sort of reform as it is obviously not enough as is. The responsibility to stay correct lies as much in schools, colleges and universities as in yourself. Rationality has to be omnipresent for individualism to work, and to spead rationality I feel some sort of collectivist action is the way to go - schools need funding to spread neutral and scientific information on basic political science and how to collect and process data.
But yes, in today's political climate, not all opinions even reach the top level arenas at all - probably due to various interests of both external entities as well as in-party organizing. I keep faith in that the system someday will change for the better, and until then, I fear in-party organizing and keeping in touch with local politics is unfortunately all there is to work with. Which is not much by any means, considering the general apathic, or uninformed, stance the average person has towards everyday politics. And to be fair, I can't blame them.
Political parties in themselves are not to represent all of one's opinions, but simply more than the other side, if it wasn't this way then the democracy would be defunct. It is a poison, but a necessary one since the system is built around it and is currently the sole way for the american democracy to work, unless a revolution would be had - which simply put would be completely undemocratic as most people support the current system (despite its flaws). If most people were to leave their respective parties, bigger interests would occupy the power instead of the people.
Slow and steady thinking and clear rationality requires both respect and dignity, but people have either learned to dismiss it as it hasn't worked, or simply weren't aware of the importance of it to begin with. I fear people's faith in respect and dignity has probably diminished with a whole lot of different factors behind it, and amongst them lies influences such as misinformation in social media (traditional media too) and problems with today's education. Shortly put, I think reorganizing the education system, making sure all people got work to do and educating people on e.g. the weight of workplace organization would do a whole lot of good for the political climate as well as the democracy.
In an utopian world rationality would take place everywhere though, we're far from there but I'm certain that point can be reached.
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Gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted November 11, 2020 01:14 AM |
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Cor.
That was beautiful. <3
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 11, 2020 01:24 AM |
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Corribus, or maybe your father is smart enough to realize there would be a waste of time to unveil his mind.
For a self-claimed centrist, you bring a lot the Fox News and republican partisan issues (there certainly are) but not a single one about other side, CNN & company - sure, you vaguely point to both sides but complete identifications are clearly missing.
That's not being centrist, but leaning left while trying to smoke others into believing you are not.
You constantly put on fred the "right-wing" label, where it doesn't take much observation skill to see he is just victim of serious psychological deprivations, gets overemotional in a second when bamboozled then loses ability to properly evaluate what's going on. I can find in the minute thousands of videos about left-leaning people doing even worse. Is that a political side symptom, I don't think so.
Not to mention all the plonkers ruthlessly ganging on him, knowing where this will lead, him being penalized and humiliated. So satisfying, right?
For the ones claiming the empathy is on their side, their doesn't even top an ameba's level.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 11, 2020 01:52 AM |
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Where exactly did he mention fred?
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 11, 2020 02:08 AM |
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On first page of this thread.
Corribus said:
I hold no political bias in the way I moderate but the simple fact is that most of the offenders recently, those that treat people with the least respect and lob the most insults, happen to be people who hold right-leaning views. And it's only one or two of you for the most part who get the most warning and penalties.
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Era II mods and utilities
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted November 11, 2020 02:13 AM |
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As detailed and well-written Corribus's essay is, Salamandre's got quite some points.
____________
Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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Blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted November 11, 2020 02:27 AM |
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@Sal
I will say 100% honestly that I get zero enjoyment from Fred being penalized or silenced. I'd prefer to ignore him but it is hard to do that completely because he's in like every single thread and he starts off calm for maybe one or two posts before he starts going berserk.
I want him to go see somebody to get some help, but we've argued heavily in the past (which was my fault as well) and so he doesn't trust anything I say. Who he votes for is entirely his own business.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 11, 2020 03:19 AM |
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Edited by fred79 at 03:21, 11 Nov 2020.
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i love how people here think i'm mental. please, explain that to me. is it because i'm a patriot and wanting to keep my country intact? is it because of me mentioning and trying to educate people on the globalists and their agenda?
ffs, you people deny conspiracies even existing, why the snow would i even bother trying to get your snowing OPINIONS on anything?
for anyone on this forum to spout msm garbage, deny actual conspiracies, deny even plain TRUTHS, and then call ME crazy...
you know, that so many of you don't get it, after i've broken it down for you all repeatedly, and the obvious evidence everywhere of it, you don't get to judge me.
simply put, you people deny plain truths; it is not with ME where ANY issues stand.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted November 11, 2020 04:06 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 04:22, 11 Nov 2020.
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@ Salamandre
First, a person can hold a political viewpoint and yet be unbiased or neutral in carrying out his or her professional responsibilities. In fact, this is a requirement in many jobs. Just because I think this or that would be a correct policy standpoint does not mean I cannot respect the rights of people to hold alternative viewpoints and defend their right to express themselves. In fact, I regard this as another responsibility of people living in a free society.
Second, I mentioned nobody by name, Fred or otherwise, and nor did I put a label on anyone as right leaning or left leaning. So please don’t put words in my mouth.
Third, my post about Fox News is based on personal observations of the way certain members of my family consume popular media and they way the discuss politics and voting preferences. I can offer no similar anecdotes about left-leaning media, and so I did not. I do not intend to imply that only conservatives or Republicans intentionally select media sources that reaffirm their own viewpoints. This is, I am sure, a general phenomenon. My wife only watches CNN - she would never deign to watch Fox News. Not a great sample size, but there it is. Nevertheless, the truth remains, that our current Republican administration has, in my opinion, a deplorable relationship with the truth, does not base policy decisions on the opinions of qualified experts (to the detriment of our health and safety), and is on record as saying that it views alternative facts as a real thing – suggesting that certain individuals in the administration do not even understand what a fact is in the first place. Fox News is undeniably serving as an echo chamber for really bad information that comes out of this administration, so the criticism stands, regardless of whether it is endemic to news media more generally. (And this says nothing about even less credible right wing media sources.) When we have a Democrat back in power, it will be interesting to observe whether left-wing media sources behave just as irresponsibly as Fox News does now. They very well might, and if they do, I will certainly call them out on it. Until then, I can offer no opinion.
Third, you are neither a physician nor a mental health professional, as far as I know, and even if you were, it is usually considered a breach of ethical practice in those professions to diagnose individuals without conducting proper medical exams in person. Particularly given the (unfair, in my view) stigma associated with mental health issues, I would kindly ask you and everyone to refrain from armchair diagnoses of Fred’s or any other users mental health at Heroes Community. It is at best unproductive and not factually supported, and at worst deliberate provocation. In short: insinuating that fred or anyone else is insane, mentally ill, "needs help" or whatever because of the views they hold is basically insulting them and disrespecting the community. I will ask you kindly this time: please don’t do it.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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