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| Thread: Science or religion? (for those who still enjoy a civilized discussion) |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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Conn
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God slayer
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posted June 18, 2002 11:08 PM |
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Science or religion? (for those who still enjoy a civilized discussion)
I was thinking the other day, is science a religion in it's own rights? I mean, you can hear people saying that they won't believe in anything that's not proven scientifically. Maybe they're right. Can we prove that God exists? Arguments for science are many...*religion is created by fear of mortality... science offers eternal life in itself (cryogenics). People who accept that would rather live eternal life on earth than in heaven.*
On the other hand, some people say " Can we prove, or do we need to prove anything? " And maybe they are right too. For religion, one can bring Paley's argument: *If you were walking on a barren heath, and came across a pocket watch, opened the back and looked at the gears and how well they work together, the springs and coils in harmony, you would assume it was put there by a higher power.. now look and the world... look at a human body.. everything runs together in perfection.. how then can we assume this just came to be? We cannot. Like the watch, a higher power must have created it.*
So, what do you think? I am really curious about what your opinions on the matter are...
P.S. Everything that's between the stars (*) i have learned from Cat.
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Sir_Stiven
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banned
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posted June 18, 2002 11:17 PM |
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Nope, to me religion is something that can unite a people. Science doesnt have that since even if two people agree about something both of them can have totally different theories of why it works.
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"Youre zeroes and ones, youre wrong where im right"
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LordTitan
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posted June 18, 2002 11:33 PM |
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Um, no science is either right or rong, in my opion.
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Hexa
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Legendary Hero
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posted June 18, 2002 11:47 PM |
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hmm well the nice thing a but science that it is often right ... untill some years later it's proven wrong again ...
So the element time is very important here I guess!@
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hamsi128
Promising
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tosser tavern owner
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posted June 19, 2002 12:07 AM |
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science above else
religion exist because humans nature needs to worship to something.. and the most fanatics religious are the less educated on science...
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LordTitan
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Hit Dice: 76d12+608 HP
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posted June 19, 2002 12:15 AM |
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Science is cool, but scientists are always fighting.
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arachnid
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 19, 2002 01:12 AM |
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Heh heh recently i got handed a booklet by a weird religous nut called "can science and religion be reconciled?"
Conn are you now doing house calls?
I love crazy people leaflets but this bit is quite interesting :
The Roman Catholic Church condemned Galileo because he concluded that the earth revolves around the sun. His view was condemned because it was contrary to what the church taught at the time.
The way i see it is this: science makes mistakes but also progress making new discoveries
Religion hardly changes and just adapts around new scientific discoveries.
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Xenophanes
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posted June 19, 2002 02:34 AM |
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That's the unfortunate thing. The Roman Catholic Church is not what it once was...and it has never been what it could be. Farther back than Gallileo's time, the Church was still corrupt--and it still is, in some ways...
A Roman Catholic myself, I like things proven scientifically. I tend to blend science and religion. Where most Catholics seem to scoff at evolution as blasphemy, I firmly believe it and adopt the Calvinistic philosophy of evolution being a tool, created and used by God, to create life.
The Big Bang? Happened. It happened at God's command.
(I don't want to offend anyone, if I'm speaking a bit too bluntly. But, I want to give my honest opinion and beliefs...)
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<Dragons rule, Titans drool!>
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Lith-Maethor
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posted June 19, 2002 03:08 AM |
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Religon vs Science
...or better yet, Religion and Science...
both worlds have fanatics... and no, i'm not refering to the Roman church of the Dark Ages... they believed only in power and money... some people get overzealous about their religious beliefs, ignoring scientific facts and others only believe in facts and want proof for everything... even the presence of God (or any other omnipotent power)
...personally, I belive in both... for example I have no problem thinking that the seven days of Genesis were in fact, periods of time way longer than 24 hours (even billions of years at a time) but i do think that sometimes faith alone can override laws of nature (miracles anybody?)
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Xenophanes
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posted June 19, 2002 03:16 AM |
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Miracles?
Where? Where?
Although, no matter what miracles happen, there are always scientists who will try to explain them as happening in some other way....
Someone just needs to go out and find the Ark of the Covenant and be done with it...
I'm actually waiting to pounce on my issue of the Catholic Herald that has the headline "Lost Arc Found!"
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RedSoxFan3
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posted June 19, 2002 06:36 AM |
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Quote:
Science is cool, but scientists are always fighting.
Then what do you think about religion. Aren't a lot of wars and based on conflicts in religious beliefs?
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Oldtimer
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posted June 19, 2002 08:17 AM |
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The problem when you phase the question as science Vs. God is that they are not mutually exclusive. Science is just looking at things and seeing how they work. It doesn't make any judgement calls or say that there is no God no matter what humanists or atheists claim. If God does exist, (I personally have faith in God) then science is just looking at and examining the way God has set up his creation. As we gain scientific understanding, we can gain insight into how God has put together such an infinately complex universe together. On the other hand, if there is no God, science can show us the longest and most complex string of coincidences that went on to create this moment in time, the random chance against it happening is just mind boggling.
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RedSoxFan3
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posted June 19, 2002 08:34 AM |
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Quote:
The problem when you phase the question as science Vs. God is that they are not mutually exclusive. Science is just looking at things and seeing how they work. It doesn't make any judgement calls or say that there is no God no matter what humanists or atheists claim. If God does exist, (I personally have faith in God) then science is just looking at and examining the way God has set up his creation. As we gain scientific understanding, we can gain insight into how God has put together such an infinately complex universe together. On the other hand, if there is no God, science can show us the longest and most complex string of coincidences that went on to create this moment in time, the random chance against it happening is just mind boggling.
That deserves a QP.
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Avallach
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Disputo ergo sum.
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posted June 19, 2002 10:09 AM |
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Science itself is not a religion... it's just that some people tend to make a religion out of it. When somebody claims that Science will solve all of humanities problems (such as giving them eternal life, as per the example), they're making it a religion. But that's not science.
Science can get mixed up with religion in other ways too. The most common, I think, is its confusion with the philosophies that are often associated with it. Take basic naturalism/materialism for example - the belief that nothing exists outside of nature, that there is no non-material existence. Most scientists work according to this assumption, but it is not something that science can prove. Nor is it really necessary for science, but only for the view that through science we can explain and discover everything. The problem can be seen in the subject of evolution, where at times, some would say, the science is subservient to the scientists' philosophy. The science is both interpreted according to the philosophy, and at the same time used to try and justify it. In this way some see it as taking on religious aspects, but it is not 'science' itself, only the way it is being used. Perhaps we could talk of a religion of 'Scientism' or somesuch, but again, that is not the same thing as science.
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- Edmund Spenser, on the death of Philip Sidney
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Romana
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Thx :D
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posted June 19, 2002 01:37 PM |
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both..
Scientology follows a long tradition of religious practice. Its roots lie in the deepest beliefs and aspirations of all great religions, thus encompassing a religious heritage as old and as varied as man himself.
Though drawing upon the wisdom of some 50,000 years, Scientology is a new religion, one which has isolated fundamental laws of life and, for the first time, developed a workable technology that can be applied to help one achieve a happier and more spiritual existence. Scientology is therefore something one does, not merely something one believes in – an important point which will be greatly clarified as you read on.
That Scientology’s development and rapid promulgation was made possible, in part, by advances in the physical sciences through the first half of the twentieth century is significant. Scientology constitutes man’s first real application of scientific methodology to spiritual questions.
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bort
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posted June 19, 2002 04:41 PM |
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Somebody (I think CS Lewis) wrote a book called "God Did It, But How?" I haven't read it, but my friend, who goes to one of those wonderful Fundamentalist Christian Colleges that seems to be a purely American idea says that the basic idea of it is, no matter what the rules are, God made them. If there's evolution, it's because God decided that's how it works, if there was a Big Bang, it's because that's how God decided to start the universe (who knows, maybe, "Let there be a singularity, in the first femtosecond following the creation of the singularity all matter and energy will come into being" got mistranslated as "Let there be light." Things like that can happen when you misplace and accent, you know) and if God wants to play dice, well, that's just because he likes dice. I guess it sort of plays into the Bible as metaphor argument (interesting, seeing as how he goes to a Fundamentalist school...). Presumably, most religions could be reconciled with science along these lines. (Of course, religions such as Buddhism don't really have issues with scientific evolution/universe creation theories. Well, at least according to the Dalai Lama, I'm sure some sects of Buddhism have issues with them). I believe the Roman Catholics position on Evolution is that it's not contradictory to the Bible, you just have to allow that God intervened at one point to give man a soul.
That said, I generally use the Ockham's (spelling?) razor argument on all of those. "Yes, it's possible that God set evolution in motion or it's possible that God caused the Big Bang, but since God isn't necessary for the theory to work, why include him/her?"
Of course, if religion inspires people to do charitable deeds, who am I to tell them their God is redundant?
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Gem
Known Hero
Sorceress/Druid
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posted June 19, 2002 05:00 PM |
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Science has to be proven.
Religions are based on the people, whether you believe or not. Tell a pious Christian God does not exist and she'll chase you out of her house with a broomstick (maybe not).
Several scientists have been trying to prove that God does exist.
Basically I don't know what to say so enlighten me.
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Xenophanes
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posted June 19, 2002 05:11 PM |
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Two steps for enlightenment:
1. Scroll up to the top of this thread.
2. Read all the way down.
Scientists trying to prove that God exists...interesting. Does anyone have links to web pages about these people, or any other tidbits that have to do with this discussion?
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Conn
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God slayer
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posted June 19, 2002 09:15 PM |
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Wow! So many people, so many opinions...this is really nice... I see many people feel that religion and cience do not exclude each other, and they are only two different facets of the same thing...exactly my position on the subject...
Ok, let's put a little spin on this thread...
I wanted to ask you how do you feel about human cloning? Are the arguments in it's favour strong enough to allow it or is it just the result of a demented mind? (this does not mean that you can't post your opinions about the original subject, off course...)
Keep them coming people, this is really nice and educational...
P.S.
Romana, i don't know much about Scientology...( except that they have some high profile members.. ) Could you explaine a bit?
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Perji
Known Hero
Necromancer
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posted June 19, 2002 10:10 PM |
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Tricky question: Science says the human being comes from the apes. Religion says that God created the man by his on appearance. So does God look like an ape? (OK, this seems pretty stupid, but makes you think)
Religion only exists today because during he Middle Ages it was the only institution that could leave and did leave documents and archives for the historians. Those were some 15 centuries of church power above all... It is natural that this left rooted feelings deep inside every man or woman. Besides, humanity needs something to believe in. Have some of you just tried to imagine the world without religion? Religion is something natural. The first cavemen who believed in an upper conscience didn't make a philosophy out of this. They just started to believe because it was something instinctive. But nowadays you can see people are getting away more and more. Especially for some sects, faith has become a bussiness. You do everything, allowed by the church or not, go to church, pray, now you're clean, and the next day it all repeats.
Come to think about it, most of the bloodiest wars were started because of religion.
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Things go wrong because people build walls instead of bridges
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