|
|
2XtremeToTake
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
posted August 10, 2002 01:51 AM |
|
|
-QP please thank you?
____________
I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met.
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted August 10, 2002 02:08 AM |
|
|
well I don't usually get into the -QP thing, but you have to be careful about giving minuses for stating a controversial opinion. (don't worry I don't agree with his opinion)
Energy I'm going to assume that either that was a joke, or was posted to get people angry, either way It won't work with me as I just won't bother lowering myself to those kind of comments. Back them up with reasons, then come back and say that, you never know someone might discuss it with you!
|
|
Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted August 10, 2002 03:05 AM |
|
|
Of course it´s a dumb post, but the way Dargon plays down the death of thousands Afghans and Palestinians is hardly any less narrow-minded and cynical. And Dargon even gets a +QP for his drivel, i.e. saying that it´s right to steal someones´ land because they´re not "people of the book".
____________
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted August 10, 2002 03:09 AM |
|
|
well I see Dargon's argument as basically the Israeli side of the coin as opposed to mine, which is the Palestine/Afghan side. I don't think Dargon ever intentionally meant to play down their deaths, though it may have come across that way.
____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
|
|
2XtremeToTake
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted August 10, 2002 03:21 AM |
|
|
i dont bother to read any post that isnt funny over 2 paragraphs =/
____________
I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met.
|
|
dArGOn
Famous Hero
|
|
posted August 10, 2002 04:16 AM |
|
Edited By: dArGOn on 9 Aug 2002
|
Bort
LOL…I was thinking about the same thing….though I have learned a lot nad erally actually enjoyed the debating…man I use a lot of time writing responses
I really wish we could of ended on an agreement….but dangit….if only you would of said french fries aren’t french fries without Ranch dressing…haha Ok lets see….hmmm…we can agree that a bread just isn’t bread without some butter?
|
|
dArGOn
Famous Hero
|
|
posted August 10, 2002 04:24 AM |
|
|
EnergyElemen...
First learn how to spell and then get a formal education so you can make intelligent posts
Lewis therin
Please read my posts before you make ignorant accusations. I NEVER said that nor said anything close to that thank you very much.
|
|
2XtremeToTake
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted August 10, 2002 04:38 AM |
|
|
Quote:
EnergyElemen...
First learn how to spell and then get a formal education so you can make intelligent posts
Yah! you go!!!!!!!
____________
I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met.
|
|
dArGOn
Famous Hero
|
|
posted August 10, 2002 04:48 AM |
|
|
Private Hudson
LOL…I loved Thatcher
I think the UN in theory is important. I would prefer if it were more of a forum for international debate and discussion. I don’t like them issuing orders and such.
I do think it is important to listen and address the concerns of other nations…but to follow every nations opinion would make us or anyone quite inept and we would lose all of our independent identity. I mean have you ever been on a committee of say just 12 people….it is amazing how hard if not impossible it is to come to consensus in a small group like that. Take that and multiply it by 1000 when you consider everyone’s religious, cultural, ethnic, educational, life experience, etc. and it becomes evident to me that he who tries to please everyone will please no one.
I have come to believe that no matter what American does we will be believed to have ghastly motives by a proportion of the world…we can never do right…even when we brush our teeth we are doing something wrong. It gets quite frustrating….to be the target of so much unfounded hate/envy/dislike. I know that isn’t everyone…but it sure seems like a lot non-Americans are negative about us.
I am sure someone will enlighten me to all the reasons we deserve this….but I got to say… no other freedom fighting democracies motives seem to be as scrutinized as America. It really is amazing considering that in some people’s estimation we are the only world super-power…..what if we actually had evil motives…we could do an amazing amount of damage to the world….but thankfully our country like many countries is basically good.
Regarding Israel….I was just reading today…in the last 2 years they have been assaulted by terrorist like 75 times….what does that equal like 3 times a month. I can’t say they have sympathy or even compassion…for I don’t know. It would be nice to think that they transcended human nature and did have such concern…but I also think I would find it nearly impossible to have compassion for people who were attacking my family 3 times a month and killing them.
Well take care my friend.
|
|
IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
|
|
posted August 10, 2002 05:10 AM |
|
|
Quote:
in the last 2 years they have been assaulted by terrorist like 75 times
and I bet it does not include the bombings and soldier deaths by terrorists.
Quote:
but I also think I would find it nearly impossible to have compassion for people who were attacking my family 3 times a month and killing them.
It's impossible and yet if any of you ever lived in Israel you would have seen that everybody is trying to reach peace no matter how many people die and how impossible it might seem. I don't think it's possible for anybody who did not experience this himself to judge Israel. On September 11 I was sure that the world would understand how it feels but it doesn't seem that anything changed. The local news only show how soldiers shooting rubber bullets at children without showing how the children first shot at the soldiers with machine guns.
|
|
dArGOn
Famous Hero
|
|
posted August 10, 2002 06:04 AM |
|
|
IYY...wow I was beginning to wonder if there were any pro-Israel posters out there! I seemed prtty alone in that perspective.
I can't speak for others, but I do know 9/11 made this American MUCH more sympathetic to Israel's plight
|
|
bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
|
|
posted August 10, 2002 04:22 PM |
|
Edited By: bort on 10 Aug 2002
|
Quote:
i dont bother to read any post that isnt funny over 2 paragraphs =/
How do you figure out if it's funny without reading it?
Edit 1: Dargon - I've interpreted the post 9/11 change in attitude as being less sympathetic to the Palestinians rather than being more sympathetic to the Israelis, but maybe we've been talking to different crowds (now gee, why would that be?)
Edit 2: Sorry, Dargon, don't normally put butter on my bread. Umm... Football isn't football without a beer?
|
|
Oh_Smeg
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted August 10, 2002 05:09 PM |
|
|
Come along Bort...you figure out if a long post is funny without reading it by reading the entire thread backwards.
If noone posts any LOL posts you know there aren't any funny threads coming up.
Btw, I think Bin Laden is dead and NOONE wants that little bit of info to get out.
____________
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted August 10, 2002 11:54 PM |
|
|
Well I would not consider myself anti-israeli, only against any country that considers that meeting one type of needless killing with thoughtless action. What is intersting about 9/11 is that since then America has finally realised that there are nations out there Like UK and Israel that are under terrorist attack and what that feels like.
As regards anti-american feeling as I'm sure you know Dargon I would never stoop to that kind of attitude. The USA is hated now for a number of reasons, most of which are unfair, none of which I support:
They are the World's only big superpower so this leads to jealousy that they can do things other nations can only dream of. In this capacity (say like a mod at a forum) you will be constantly scrutinised by others and mostly criticised by people who do not understand the problems caused by it.
Many nations resent anyone who is not of their ethnic group/religion/skin colour/political persuasion interfering in their affairs, whether it is for good or bad. To take the Islamic nations as an example, countries such as Saudi Arabia and others are strict Muslims and some of them see the west as the embodiment of evil, with it's free trade, lax women and attitudes (not my opinion - theirs please note!) and this leads to hatred when the two cultures meet. There is a certain amount of hypocrisy in that since they are prepared to have you give them guns/tanks/soilders whenever they may need them!
This will always happen. The Romans were hated no matter their great legacy to the world in their time because they were their times great Power. In the 19th Centuary Britain was a target because we held great power throughout the world, but no matter how many times we tried there was always some other country questioning our every action.
Israel is one of those things, like I said I can understand their motives, but I can also understand their fears. Ivy said that unless you'd lived through terror you cannot understand it. Well I have in Britain. OK so not 3 a month or something on that scale, but when I grew up the only thing we all knew was that you should be afraid of ever criticising the IRA (I live near Liverpool which has a considerable Catholic Irish population), NI was somewhere to fear and the threat of my town or city being torn apart like Manchester or Omagh was bery real. I know what it's like, I also know how we have acheived relative peace in the province. I know we did not acheive it by retaliation, but by having to take the higher morale ground. Someone has to take the first step or else the genocide Dargon fears will happen, but this time both peoples will fall.
____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
|
|
IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
|
|
posted August 11, 2002 12:44 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Someone has to take the first step or else the genocide Dargon fears will happen, but this time both peoples will fall.
The first step towards peace was already taken more than once by Israel but every time they try to reach peace, another bus or restaurant blows up. Do you think that if you were in that situation you would have kept trying to reach peace without doing anything to the people who are trying to destroy your nation and clearly are not interested in peace unless you give them your home? I don't think it's possible.
____________
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted August 11, 2002 01:07 AM |
|
|
Excuse me if I repeat myself, but I was in that position! We in the UK put up with terrorism for 30 years until we have finally got to talking peace, and still the so called "real IRA" bomb and create terror - Omagh where many people were killed in a crowded centre of town being an example. Do you think in all that time the British people did not want revenge? Or after Bloody Sunday when innocent Catholic civilians were shot in error by British Soilders, do you think that did not enrage the IRA and it's supporters?
Conflict happens all the time, but if there is one thing history tells us it is that at some point to end it you have to TALK, not respond in kind. That will lead to one side running out of people, and given the number of Islamic people surrounding Israel then there is only ever going to be one end. If Israel and Palestine continues the way it has then who will stop first? Who will be wiped out first?
Both sides are to blame here, you can hardly solely blame the palestinians for the problems today. Israeli people may want peace, but they voted for a man who clearly is hardline, suspected of warcrimes against Islamic people and was heavily critical of previous attempts at peace. If they truly wanted an end to the violence why put a man like Sharon in power? It looks like a proportion of Israel simply wanted revenge and Sharon is the man to give this.
The point is they both are at fault here, Israel is hardly saintly, Do you think that you would be pleased if land promised to you by peace accords was continously having Israeli settlers put on it? The two communities clearly have problems living alongside eachother, why enrage eachother more by doing this?
Please try to understand I do not solely blame Israel for the current crisis, but they are not realising where they are at fault and to ingore that is clearly wrong.
____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
|
|
IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
|
|
posted August 11, 2002 02:32 AM |
|
|
First of all I must say that I am not fully aware of what is happening in the UK right now but I am quite sure that it's not as big as what is happening in Israel: in your case it's just several acts of terror while in Israel it's a war. I can see that you have some understanding on what is happening in the middle east but the story that the whole world is getting is quite biased against Israel.
As to Sharon and his party, they are not half as bad as you think them to be. They want peace as much as me and you, only that they believe (and latley I tend to agree with them) that it cannot be achieved by running away from problems but only by facing them.
Another thing that many people seem to miss - Jews and Arabs can and do live together in reletive peace in some communities in Israel. The Arabic language is taught as third language in almost every school in Israel and the young generations are taught how to love their nehibors - not hate them. In fact, peace is as important to Israel as patriotism is important to the US: it's what parents teach their children and teachers teach their students. Jews and Arabs work together and in some cases even live in the same city (like the one I lived in). The Israili people only want to find and punish the people who organize the acts of terror and are responsible for the deaths of thousands of Israily people.
When the Israili soldiers enter a town where terrorists are hiding they do not kill civilians unless the civilians attack the soldiers.
You say that it might be possible to have peace, and I believe so too, but it cannot happen if the Hamas and the Hisbala keep attacking Israel and go unpunished.
____________
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted August 11, 2002 02:54 AM |
|
|
Let me assure you there has been more than just several acts of terror in Ireland in the last 30 years! 10 Years ago Belfast was just a very dangerous place to be. They had Catholic pubs, Catholic sides of the street and Catholic Taxi Drivers and the same for the Protestants. You use the wrong one then you may not live to tell the tale. No matter the scale it was then and still to some extent is now a terror every bit as equal to Israel. We have spent decades like you afraid to walk certain streets, worried about parked cars you don't recognise and bags left in a public place.
As far as Sharon is concerned it depends on what you mean by facing his problem. If his solution is to kill palestinian terrorists to stop them bombing, when will he work out that it is not working? You destroyed some of their infrastructure, invaded the west bank, killed Hamas leaders and other things in this "war" yet you are still getting bombed. How long will Sharon go on for, when all the Palestinians are dead?
I'm not trying to be biased against Israel, hell I hate any terrorist, including those involved in Palestine and Ireland. My point is Sharon has tried violence and it has not worked. I don't miss the fact about living together, but placing right wing settlers in the midst of anrgy palestinians is hardly a good startegy is it? How pray tell me does that help to create peace?
My point is that you can kill all of these people, kill all of the leaders and where will it get you? Sure you will have revenge, you may even stop the attacks for a short while, but in doing so you only create a generation who hate Israel and all that it stands for. Israeli soilders on the ground may not shoot innocents, but shelling buildings with tanks, and bombing them from the air is always going to cause civilian casualties, but nowhere do you see an end to that. The world may get less "biased" if Israeli politicians said sorry occaisionally for the accidental casualties and actually meant it.
I have said it before and will again Israel cannot afford to go toe to toe forever with the Palestinians, it must get peace to survive. You cannot achieve peace until one side is prepared to forgive the other. Since Hesbollah or Hamas are never likely to do this, perhaps Israel should take the lead. You can be angry and want revenge all you like, but the palestinians clearly won't stop if they think the first part of any settlement involves the handing over of Hamas terrorists. We Brits only got this far because we released those terrorists in jail. If as you say this is a war, then surely they are POW's, so when peace comes, will they be released? Not under Sharon!
____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
|
|
IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
|
|
posted August 11, 2002 03:43 AM |
|
|
I can't say that I do not agree with most of the points you made, because throughout the ten years I lived in Israel I always supported the "left wing parties" (the ones that support all of your points and believe that peace can be achieved without war). You say that Israel tried war and it didn't work, well you might not know that the left parties were in control of Israel for a very long time and tried every possible way to get peace without killing the terrorists but it didn't work. A few hours after every peace agreement another bus exploded or we had to sit for days in the bomb shelters.
Quote:
We Brits only got this far because we released those terrorists in jail
And you don't think that no terrorists were ever released from our jails? The thing is that after a guy is released he just goes and commits the crimes again: those terrorists just don't think like us, for them it's all a part of their "Jihad". They believe that by killing our soldiers they will have a great afterlife and do it with a clean conscience.
You say that Israel has to take the first step: do you have an actual step in mind? I am quite sure that it was already attempted.
____________
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted August 11, 2002 04:02 AM |
|
|
Ah we can agree on somethings, even small ones!
Sorry I wasn't clear on the Terrorist release thing, they were only released when some form of agreement on a cease fire was in place. Please read a few posts back for my ideas on suicide bombers and their uncontrollable nature. Can they be stopped, No. Can Arafat do more to stop them and should he? YES!
Just one bit to add, which is something not completely related and not arguing with you on. Jihad from all that I have read is very much a personal thing. In terms of Islam it represents a individual persons struggle against evil and is personal, therefore it is an abuse to call upon people to do so! I think in this issue the Palestinian bombers are seeing Israel as Evil for the way they lost their homeland and therefore a jihad is declared. What differs here is that it seems likely that Hamas leaders are calling this Jihad and they presumably treat those who do not answer the jihad as unbelievers. Interesting since this is against the koran is it not?
The step is a figure of speech. I mean Israel must always prove itself above retaliation and war. You must never stop looking for peace, never choose war if peace would get you further. Never give up as this gives in to what they want. Believe me terrorist groups like the UDF (protestant) IRA (catholic) in Ireland and Hamas in Palestine thrive on your retaliation. Every time a civilian is killed accidentaly is more recruits for their cause. Every bombing run brings more funding from outside organisations and countries. Every tank shell fired causes another person to step down that road to terror in return. Unless Israel stops they could find themselves so far into a war with their own population they may never dig themselves out.
I'm sorry if any of that sounded arrogant or like I am talking down to any of you. It's just how I feel and my opinion of that crisis in the area. If I said "You" when Israel would fit better then please feel free to sustitute it!
____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
|
|
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
