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Cat
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Gonna Get Dirrty...
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posted July 29, 2002 04:20 PM |
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Edited By: Cat on 29 Jul 2002
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Hmm, possibly, but I don't like to drag history into things. It was DarGOON that did that. I generally prefer to focus on the here and now.. but he was arguing for history in point, and if a case in point is required, it is given.
My point is that evil cannot be so easily defined in a "this is evil, we are good" tussle. Every nation and even some individuals have commited atrocities in their time, and to turn around and be self-rightious about "evil" is absurd under these circunstances.
I am a amnesty member, yes... I have been since I was very small. No matter what has been done anywhere, human rights laws should always be observed. I was merely stating that if anybody wished to say that they had somehow forfieted their ight to a lawyer or to humn rights, some other examples ought to be used.
(PS... want me to show you your human rights, Bort baby...?  you know you want to...)
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted July 29, 2002 04:21 PM |
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Dargon I think that in general you may misunderstand my motives in this post. I have no intention of attacking every last point of American policy, past or present. You asked earlier what my point over PH was – it is simply my way of saying to people don’t accept the common story everyone tells you without looking at alternatives. I’m not saying you haven’t, but there are an awful lot of people who have in the past.
The US faces a time period where it is the only country with the power and money and will to enforce reasonable behaviour on the world. In the 19th Century Britain faced something similar and every century before that the world power has been judged on it’s behaviour towards others. In my opinion the USA does a better job than many other countries would do in similar circumstances. Your point about being damned if you do and damned if you don’t is a good one. Britain faced a similar circumstance in the Boer War. They were damned by Germany and France because they were seen to be gold grabbing, but many ignored the fact that British farmers were persecuted under Boer rule. Like you say damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
This is my overall point: I only try to point out alternatives to others thinking such as Bush needing support from other before going ahead. I did not try to say this is a bad thing, but merely that it is another reason. What is worrying though is what Pakistan and Russia, amongst others were offered to appease them. In 1973, after forcing the Israeli’s into a ceasefire the Americans and British were then forced to give major arms funding and contracts to them, to ensure that Israel was remotely reasonable at the peace table. I don’t wish to critcise, who would have done anything different? My point is it is very rare that any country helps another in such a way, let alone does it without payment in some form.
There is no denying America funds through charities and it’s government huge aid packages, I was only trying to point out so does the vast majority of the Western World. I would never say that the majority of the American population were not charitable! I would also rather not get into a debate on who gives the most – who cares? What matters is that nations such as USA and America and others give at all.
Can’t argue over the Hiroshima point though. It is nice to see that not all people think that Nagasaki was justified though. Well done Bort for looking at those two events unblinkered and realising that whilst one was justified and reasonable, the other was simple politics.
Nidhgrin
You make some valid points, but take them too far in my opinion. No terrorism? Bombing innocents deliberately is terrorism, accidently it is well and accident. OK it makes no difference to the dead afghan, but these people were living in hell, and many would rather risk bombing by the West to remove the taliban. At least now they can re-build. That is the one thing you seem to have missed out on. Terrorists destroy and think nothing of the effects, The US and others have at least been trying to rebuild Afghanistan after the war.
Terrorists may have families, but so do other mass murderers. The terrorist knows this when he commits his act. If he thought much of his family would he do it? There is do Evil and Good? only in terms of one person or country is not solely either, but it is against most people's morales to kill innocents with intent to do so. Most muslims you speak to will tell you that the events of spetember 11th and the palestinians blowing themselves up is AGAINST their koran and their moral upbringing. What kind of person brings up a child to kill others with no thought or care? Not the average Muslim who REALLY follows the relgion.
The attack may be seen by the terrorists as an act of vengence, but I have stated before and I will state it again FIGHT THE COUNTRY NOT THE PEOPLE! If you want vengence against the USA or any other nation then they should have targeted the country, not innocent people deliberately.
Peace and forgiveness can only work if both sides are committed. Remember the British tried peaceful means to stop Hitler's evils and look where that got them! Sometimes violence is the only solution to bring about true peace, that of which where we all agree to celebrate our differences and our shared beleifs and not fight over often petty diferences and arguments over unimportant matters.
Good point on Xray and Pinochet Cat. like many nations the US is sometimes guilty of only being just when it has a stake in the affair. We brits have stood shoulder to shoulder with you Yanks time and again and we often get ignored when it comes to the decision making. Did you know that despite all our support the americans STILL hold over the UK the fact that we owe them money on what we borrowed from them during WWII. Perhaps it's time to see some payback hey!
Be in control of the prisoners? hand them over to the court of war crimes at the UN. That is the only reasnoble thing to do. Besides do you think holding them on an island with god knows how many american hating cubans nearby is really that safe?
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Juulcesaar
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 29, 2002 04:45 PM |
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Quote:
Be in control of the prisoners? hand them over to the court of war crimes at the UN.
Do you mind being reminded that this court has been rejected by the Congress and any USA civilian can be LEGITIMATLY rescued by a US STRIKE FORCE? I don't want to say this isn't loved by any nation, but using 2 types of weights can make some people going mad.
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I do no longer exist...
Check 'reynaert' if you want to see me...
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted July 29, 2002 04:52 PM |
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Quote:
(PS... want me to show you your human rights, Bort baby...? you know you want to...)
I know that it's a right, but it seems so so wrong... oh yeah. (Barry White voice)
PS I, too am a member of that organization of Amnesty that spans International borders.
(And hey, Nidhgrin, y'all *still* hold it over our heads that we arrived late for both world wars ;-)
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted July 29, 2002 04:53 PM |
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Yes I do mind America thinking that it is above the law of the UN by refusing to accept that on some occaisions it's troops may in the future be guilty of crimes in war! The US is perfectly happy to use the court to try Milosevic, but wants immunity for itself! What will the court do to these prisoners that is so dangerous - give them a fair and unbiased trial?
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted July 29, 2002 04:56 PM |
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Never mind bort at least you guys have made up for it since by jumping in first wherever you can!
JOKE FOR ALL OF YOU OVERPROTECTIVE YANKS OUT THERE!
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted July 29, 2002 04:56 PM |
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damn another double post sorry guys!
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted July 29, 2002 05:06 PM |
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Quote:
Never mind bort at least you guys have made up for it since by jumping in first wherever you can!
JOKE FOR ALL OF YOU OVERPROTECTIVE YANKS OUT THERE!
Well, as they say, "Last one waist deep in mutilated corpses is a rotten egg!"
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Juulcesaar
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 29, 2002 05:07 PM |
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O yes, jumping first out there... With a stealth bomber, and weapons that Europeans aren't allow to make. We Europeans aren't allowed to make a sattelite group to match the GPS. 'use ours' Yes, but GPS is 10 meters accurate for private clients, and 1 meter for soldiers -American soldiers. So we try to make our own- but we have 'some' American resistance.
I personally think the Usa 'no' was to make sure no people will be put on trial for the Death Penalty, not for some soldier
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I do no longer exist...
Check 'reynaert' if you want to see me...
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted July 29, 2002 05:30 PM |
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jull
America has always held something over Europe's heads for ages (like most other countries have done). GPS is just one example, that way they can withdraw it or threaten to and get people to behave. That's diplomacy and bargaining for you!
And the court i'm thinking of is the one they rejected because they felt that some of their soilders would be tried for warcrimes and therfore they could not accept it. We brits did, we may not have perfect soilders, but at least we are prepared to have their actions examined and not expect to go around the world doing as we please and no-one saying "hang on a minute that ain't right". The US signed up to the charter of the UN and largely agree to it's laws, then why won't they let it's citizens and soilders be examined by it?
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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2XtremeToTake
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 29, 2002 05:37 PM |
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who is worse?
osama bin laden or adolf hitler?
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I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted July 29, 2002 05:41 PM |
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who is worse?
osama bin laden or adolf hitler?
Neither, they both killed innocent people, the number is irrelevant. (assuming OBL planned that assault or any of the other crimes the US has accused him of)
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Juulcesaar
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 29, 2002 10:48 PM |
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Hitler definatly: he attacked countrys weaker then his own. He killed a lot more people. He has done atrocitys. He forced his own people in a war they don't want.
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted July 30, 2002 07:08 AM |
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Nidhgrin there are no terrorist in this world???…well I am aghast…I guess you will just have to be a victim of them before you will see that terror is alive and well….there are terrorist in every nation and all of them are to be despised. Standing up for ones beliefs is one thing, but intentionally killing innocent people is the definition of terrorism. I am glad to see that the civilized world has evolved to having very few terrorist governments.
Evil definitely exists…have not all the wars and killings taught us that. Have you never met a person who is truly evil…I have. Though I will admit is easier to see evil in others..we must also examine our own demons. But even though every person and government has its shadow side that is very different than a truly evil person….Hitler, Manson, OBL, etc.
Of course there are areas where reasonable people will disagree as to what is wrong or right…but most people are able to know true evil when they see it. There is a continuum of evil and those at the far end need to be called what they are…evil. The book “People of the Lie” by psychologist Scott Peck makes a very thorough examination of what true evil is. Believe me I have worked in social service system and what you see some people to do children can NEVER be categorized as a different moral perspective…they are overcome with evil intent.
BTW when you said “life is not always black and white” is a statement that is black or white also when you said “Violence in any form is bad” is also another example of an absolute …all or nothing thinking…so you argue against yourself. Life may not be not be always black and white, but there are many things which are black and white…such as murder, rape, molestation, etc.
I did appreciate your statements to people who broad brush and claim “ 'I hate Americans' and your sensitivity to the 9/11 attack. We can have an honest disagreement that I think USA’s current leadership has never been more in tune with true integrity and care.
Catnip..since you are apparently dropping to the level of childish name calling I thought I would come down to your level.
Anyone can be knowledgeable about history but many miss the lessons of history…so if you claim that you are knowledgeable about history than I will not dispute your claim…but as far as wisdom from history..there I think you are weak when you make statements like can’t we just all get along and why do innocents have to be harmed during war. History teaches us over and over that war is a necessity at times and people get hurt…but to stand by the side and scream catchy anti-war rhetoric will only assist in purportrating evil. Yes there is that word…evil…deal with it…live with it…if you cant’ identify when something is evil then there is little hope for you. The attack on USA was EVIL period. Just the same as the USA having a period of slavery was also EVIL.
I love how you holy then everyone else pseudo intellectuals try to accuse someone of a double standard when they don’t have a clue as to how the other person judges their own actions and their nation’s actions…where ever did I state that USA’s motives are always holy and good. We have plenty of history to not be proud of…but on the whole I think we are a good nation with good people.
Of course you can define an evil mindset…are you kidding…you get 20 people in a room from 20 different cultures and you are going to find agreement at least 80% of the time about what they consider evil. Your own involvement in Amnesty proves your hypocrisy on that point….you have defined something as evil or if you prefer “incorrect” and you are taking steps to correct what you perceive as wrong…so there you have it,,, you in your own mind have defined evil or else you would not act to change things!
Privatehudson I get the jest of you wanting to look at all the aspects of an issues and apologize that I missed that. I just get tired of so many people saying USA does everything wrong. I now understand that you are just trying to give multiple viewpoints and not just dogging the USA because it is the cool thing to do in today’s world.
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Snogard
Known Hero
customised
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posted July 30, 2002 09:41 AM |
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privatehudson:
"... and realising that whilst one was justified and reasonable, the other was simple politics."
Who said (can say) that the act of dropping the bomb that killed more than 20K people was "justified and reasonable"?!
dArGOn:
"Nidhgrin there are no terrorist in this world????Eell I am aghast?E guess you will just have to be a victim of them before you will see that terror is alive and well?Ethere are terrorist in every nation and all of them are to be despised. Standing up for ones beliefs is one thing, but intentionally killing innocent people is the definition of terrorism. I am glad to see that the civilized world has evolved to having very few terrorist governments."
Perhaps (as it appears) the term terrorism needs to be more "clearly" defined. And, "intentionally killing innocent" ... hmm... that's a diffcult problem too... INTENTIONALLY...
"BTW when you said “life is not always black and white?Eis a statement that is black or white also when you said “Violence in any form is bad?Eis also another example of an absolute ?Ell or nothing thinking?Eo you argue against yourself. Life may not be not be always black and white, but there are many things which are black and white?Euch as murder, rape, molestation, etc."
Black and White only exist WITHIN a paradigm. You're probably correct to say that murder, rape, molestation are "black" in THE PRESENT paradigm. I'm not sure, but perhaps you've misunderstood Nidhgrin's "life is not always black and white". I cannot explain any better than Nidhgrin, but maybe we can say that life is "absolutely relative and relatively absolute".
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Seize The Day.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted July 30, 2002 10:26 AM |
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Snogard
It was justified in my opinion because of the reasons I gave earlier, ie the number of allied soilders and citizens/soilders of Japan that would have been killed in the invasion of Japan. Others have also stated that they can understand the reasoning behind dropping the bomb. You said that a terrorist kills innocents intentionally. I would add something to that he is someone who kills intentionally and without first making sure that his actions will save lives. In my opinion the bomb was dropped paradoxically to save lives.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Romana
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Thx :D
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posted July 30, 2002 11:03 AM |
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hmm..something here bugs me a bit..
I personally think OBL is a confused nutcase..like all the other *evil* leaders outthere..But what I find a bit weird is that OBL and hitler are mentioned in one sentence..and I don't think the 2 of them can be compared..now If you would say Hitler, Milosevic, Saddam Hoessein .IMO they fit in the same *category*
As for OBL..I think he's the same as one of the parties in Ireland or ETA or whatever other terrorrist organization..
Also..there is no worse or better when it comes to these kind of people..the result is the same..A lot of pain and anger.
To bring the subject of propaganda into this..we are all influenced by what we see on the news or hear on the radio.
No-one in the world is not-biased.
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The darkest skies show the brightest stars
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2XtremeToTake
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 30, 2002 11:29 AM |
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dArgon is taking this a bit too seriously
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I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met.
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Nidhgrin
Honorable
Famous Hero
baking cookies from stardust
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posted July 30, 2002 11:50 AM |
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It seems you have misinterpreted several things I said, Dargon. Evil is a word from fearytales and fantasy stories. Good and evil, black and white, no, they don't exist in real life. Like I said before different people have different morals. That implies that some people may have morals or ideas that are inhuman, horrifying and unimaginably cruel or foul. As Romana mentioned, some people are ill, very ill in the head. They have sick thoughts and should probably be locked away in an asylum for treatment. If those insane people happen to be leaders, catastrophies happen. I wouldn't call it evil, only ill, really ill.
The ones you refer to as 'terrorists' are desperate people, people willing to give their life to improve the situation of their comrades. Freedom fighters, like I said before. Why are there so few so called terrorists in the so called civilized world? Simply because life is damn easy and good around here. There's no need to try and use all means possible to get a better future. Then again, people with miserable lives tend to go crazy every now and then over here as well, slaughtering off their family, firing guns in schools or shopping malls. Do you call them terrorists? They also kill innocent people, so following your line of thoughts, they must be.
I was shocked to see you using Hitler and OBL in the same sentence. Do you know anything about the atrocities that took place during WW2?! Now really, what kind of a comparison is that. Man, think of the huge difference in magnitude between the two events before you write something like that.
I must correct myself, 'life hardly ever is black and white'. That's an absolute. Violence in any form is disgusting and should not exist is a personal opinion of mine. It's one of the things that is always on my mind, solving things in a peaceful way, no other. If you believe violence is permitted, then I seriously start questioning the healthyness of your own morals, my friend. And by the way, IS murder always black? I think not. Say a burglar breaks into your home, your wife goes downstairs, gets raped and killed. You happen to have a shotgun in your closet and pump the dude full of lead in a flash of rage (a very human emotion by the way). That's murder, right? Can you call it 'black', or 'evil'? I don't think so son, I don't think so.
On what you spit over Cat's head, war is NEVER a necessity. It's a sick human invention in order to get what one wants. Whether it be more land, freedom, revenge... War can never be justified, same with violence. People who have really looked into history know this, all of them! You are obviously not among this group of 'pseudo intellectuals', so you shouldn't criticize people who have a superior knowledge on the subject.
Before you write things like this again, make sure you've read some history books, some books about anthropology and I think philosophy would do you good too. Some of the things you write are outrageous and completely single minded. Do you look at things from different points of view, ever?
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~Vegetables don't spam~
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Cat
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Gonna Get Dirrty...
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posted July 30, 2002 12:38 PM |
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Edited By: Cat on 30 Jul 2002
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Welll.... DArGOON
Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. This is true, but the individuals which you hold up do not even show any sign of learning from the recent past.
A big outcry by the American people after 11th sept was "how can anybody hate us that much?". Well, it wasn't them personally who found themselves hated, but their government for many reasons, but mostly for their bizzarre middle east policies (to gather the jewish vote, which any government depends on), and their covert operations (ie, Iran-contra).
None of these have been stopped, not once! The policies are still there, despite the fact that they fuled hatered and handed ammunition to what you refer to as "evil". How is this learning from the past?
Also, the definition of evil. Lets look at the religious sense, where "evil" springs from. Many (fanatical) chrisitans believe anybody who does not believe in their god is evil, many fanatical followers of Islam feel the same way. They both would believe the other to be evil. This is a short form, but it shows how subjective the word is:- "One man's freedom fighter is another's terorist".
As for defining evil myself, I have not and do not. I believe certain things are wrong, but I go by ethical values. Evil is a very powerful word, and I was always told to think twice beofore using a word of that magnitude untill I could be sure in my mind of it's meaning. If you look, I have never in this thread called anybody evil in my own words. Wrong, yes, unjust, yes, but not evil. I am not qualifyed or clear enough on it's meaning to use this word.
Again, I am interested by the pacifist tag. You cannot lable everybody who does not subscribe to your beliefs and practises with a white feather of the coward. I shall explain again:- I do not agree with the ethics and posturing of this "war" and therefore I do not wish my countries resources, which should be spent on housing, on education and on healthcare (all of which are in huuge need of money and resources here right now) going to fight a war which few in the country agree with. It was asked that Blair give the UK people a referendum about the Isreali affair. Blair said no.
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