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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted September 02, 2002 09:57 PM |
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Well firstly I am British and not american so I believe different things from the USA. Secondly I am worried about the potential nuclear Arsenal lying possibly along with chemical weapons in Iraq.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Undead_Knight
Known Hero
Hero of Chaos
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posted September 02, 2002 10:22 PM |
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Why US or UK can have nuclear weapons and Iraq cant ? Why dont start bombing Israel in this case if efforts in getting nuclear weapons is so big crime?
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted September 02, 2002 10:52 PM |
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Clinton?
Quote:
Why did Iraq all of a sudden become a problem when a Bush stepped in the Whitehouse? There was no threat when it was Clinton.
Because Clinton was an idiot and couldn't lead a country to any victory to save his life.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 02, 2002 10:59 PM |
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Good points, Undead Knight (except for one, I doubt that the people of Iraq support Saddam).
Besides, it´s so laughable, for example the threat to the world posed by global warming is 100 times as alarming and dangerous as OBL or Saddam Hussein. That American fundamentalist gouvernment lacks contact to reality. Did you know that, instead of going against the destruction of planet Earth, they´re putting tons of money in anti-masturbation campaigns?
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Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
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posted September 02, 2002 11:21 PM |
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I do think that the people of Iraq supports Saddam just like you and I would do if we were to recieve the propaganda that they get. Dont under estimate the power of media, they could make you believe in flying pigs. Just keep repeating the same stuff over and over but in different ways...anyone can manipulate photos and stuff nowadays, and get some scientists&"experts" to vertify it and before you know it you would see blue flying pigs everywhere. People only see what they want to see...
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted September 03, 2002 12:57 AM |
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Undead I don't support the use or keeping of these weapons by anyone. Iraq though is ruled by a man of dubious morals and sanity and therefore is a considerable danger. Why not bomb Israel? Simply because thet will respond in kind on their neighbours to greater effect. Whether I like it or not, Iraq is being targetted because it is one of the few nations that is relatively easy to challenge
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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arachnid
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 03, 2002 01:46 AM |
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Quote:
I do think that the people of Iraq supports Saddam just like you and I would do if we were to recieve the propaganda that they get. Dont under estimate the power of media, they could make you believe in flying pigs. Just keep repeating the same stuff over and over but in different ways...anyone can manipulate photos and stuff nowadays, and get some scientists&"experts" to vertify it and before you know it you would see blue flying pigs everywhere. People only see what they want to see...
But isnt every government guilty of manipulating there people using media? I mean with people talking of Iraq people being cancer needing wiped out, callng them evil terrorists and just nuke them kind of comments, its easy to see that it works both ways.
Now much has been said about Iraqs poor human rights record which is completely awful, having said that is some of our middle-east allies any better?
Saudi Arabia is surely a terrorist nation not to meantion there terrible human rights. Of course you wont find complaints about that since its against the law criticise Islam, the ruling family, or the government. Not to meantion the treatment of women. But they are all right, hell even better than that allies (could this have anything to do with Saudi Arabia being a major customer for U.S. manufactured weapons systems ?)
Egypt: Torture is widespread in Egypt, and basic liberties such as freedom of association and freedom of speech are sharply restricted. While Egypt could technically be called a democracy, the government frequently throws opposition candidates and their supporters in jail during elections. Allies of course they let American soldiers train there.
Iran: In Iran homosexuality is punishable by stoning to death. Allies of course.
What about the fact that Turkey committed mass mass genocide? Should they be classed as allies? From 1900 to 1923, various Turkish regimes killed from 3,500,000 to over 4,300,000 Armenians, Greeks, Nestorians, and other Christians. Oops i forgot that President Clinton withdrew a draft resolution which labelled the killing of Armenians by Turks as genocide.
Silly me, but i bet that fears that Turkey might withdraw from a possible $4.5bn defence deal with an American contractor, had nothing to do with its withdrawl in any way, shape or form.
Algeria, Burundi, China, Cuba, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Indonesia, Kenya, Libya, Malaysia, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Syria, Togo and Vietnam. All have terrible Human rights probably much worse than Iraqs so who should we attack next after Iraq?
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Damacon_Ace
Famous Hero
Also known as Nobris Agni
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posted September 03, 2002 02:26 AM |
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About the war on Iraq....
Well, being an Australian dosen't make it any better. It seems as if the Australian federal government is siding with the United States for this proposal of attacking Iraq.
As you see, Australia has sided with the USA in many world summits. The Kyoto protocol, for example was refused by the Australian authorities as well as the United States, so we are in the line of fire from the Europeans and the greenies (most of them are Europeans, anyway), who wanted to make the earth greener and blamed our country (and the US) for polluting the earth unneccessarily.
So, on this war on Iraq, I'd reckon both President Bush and his supporters (including Australia) should look more carefully into their actions before taking out Iraq. Sure, I would like to see Saddam Hussein get toppled off from ruling Iraq and be captured so that he be brought to justice (or even killed, for that matter), but aimless bombing on Iraqi hideouts will only increase the anger against the US (and Australia) in the Middle East, as well as the murder of innocents.
In my opinion, the war might be viable, but it has its own risks.
God bless America, and Australia too.
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No one knows my true nature here...
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hamsi128
Promising
Supreme Hero
tosser tavern owner
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posted September 03, 2002 01:18 PM |
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Quote:
What about the fact that Turkey committed mass mass genocide? Should they be classed as allies? From 1900 to 1923, various Turkish regimes killed from 3,500,000 to over 4,300,000 Armenians, Greeks, Nestorians, and other Christians. Oops i forgot that President Clinton withdrew a draft resolution which labelled the killing of Armenians by Turks as genocide.
Silly me, but i bet that fears that Turkey might withdraw from a possible $4.5bn defence deal with an American contractor, had nothing to do with its withdrawl in any way, shape or form.
I want to correct something in your history ... from 1900 to 1923 there was no TURKEY lol.. Turkey founded in 1923. genocide made in Ottomans Empire time... and there is no relation with turkish republic and ottoman empire(all dynasty and followers exiled)but unfortunately because of ottomans crime we will pay the dept.
btw , you are right if usa accept the genocide they cant sell weapons etc... it is the modern world shame that countries diplomacy is more important then humanity. But remember that all countries with a long history has a risk to have a shame on their glorious path .. like americans-hiroshima , germans-hitler , turks-armenians etc.. etc.. i hope new generations read history and dont do same mistakes.(a little utopic hope lol)
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Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
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posted September 03, 2002 02:12 PM |
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Arachnid, exactly my point but i didnt want it to get out so fast lol. I wanted someone to start argue about it so i could just show that as an example later, that way it would have made more sense. But since you already brought it up:
Why do you think so bad about certain nations or some other stuff aswell for that matter? have you seen the issue from both sides? Unfortunately the answer is usually no to that question...what they say on TV/newspapers etc is percepted as the "truth". I have brought up examples that swedish goverment has used in a propaganda thread earlier, facts are that the human today listens too much to other people instead of getting their own ideas about stuff. The most important thing is to use common sense.
For all you know really the Bin Laden attacks could just have been american arabs that recieved lots of money to do these things just so USA would get an excuse to bomb Afganistan and to increase their power of oil. The video´s youve seen about Osama could all have been manipulated. Because lets face it, have u seen Osama saying this things in person? Do you have any 100% proof?
No you dont...you just listen to your common sense, myself i do off course not believe in this but its still a possibility. The american goverment could have gotten you all to feel this way just by using propaganda for it. Because this is how for example Saddam uses his propaganda, he doesnt show off the rest of the world as the good side...He shows them off like murderers thats trying to kill them for whatever reasons, he doesnt show what he has done to his people...he show what the rest of the world has done and why he thinks it should be counter attacked. And the love for a nation can be really strong.
What i am trying to say i guess is that you cant blame a person always for feeling how he/she does, when put out for the "right" propaganda you could believe in almost anything...like blue flying pigs.
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Pleuris
Promising
Known Hero
Look ma! No hair!
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posted September 03, 2002 02:20 PM |
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Why is the USA the only country starting a war at the other side of the world? (Korea, Vietnam)
One word: weaponindustry
I've thought of a slogan for it: Selling guns IS worth a lot of human lifes
(Well, not in my opinion, just my twisted sense of humor)
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Undead_Knight
Known Hero
Hero of Chaos
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posted September 03, 2002 07:52 PM |
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About if ppl in Iraq like Hussein or not I can be sure that they dont like to be bombed and cant accept US government opinion as reason to change leader. I also sure that if u ask ppl in Iraq who dislike Hussein if they want to be bombed to get rid of him - 99% will say "no" while 1% who want it are ppl who think they can took power instead of Hussein. Also i think life conditions in Iraq after conquering will be even more low than now because the only responsibility of new government will be loyality to US and seems power will be taken by thieves who just steal as much as they can and after all will go bad they will migrate with all stolen money to US or europe and will write book how they tried to build democracy in Iraq
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Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
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posted September 03, 2002 08:04 PM |
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Sure.."and they all lived happily ever after" huh?
wake up.
You dont "ask" the people in Iraq if they wanna get bombed, all they would get to know about it would be the things that their goverment want them to know. Which means something like "The american people that hates us is trying to make us surrender to them and make us live by their rules...so stand up for your nations and show those american murderers that we wont surrender to them and their rules" or they can start lying even more and say "...even if you surrender you will all be executed as soon as they have taken control over our lands"...
If you have a monopoly of what the people are going to know and not its not hard to they get them to fight for your cause.
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Nivek
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 03, 2002 10:06 PM |
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Quote:
You stated “It's been, what 10 years since Iraq has posed a significant threat? And all of a sudden, with the U.S. economy struggling, various high-profile scandals, etc. Iraq becomes a problem?”
All of a sudden??? We have been fighting with Iraq almost since we won the gulf war. Also I think 9/11 is something rather major that changed our perspective…the war on terrorism….Saddam is a supporter of terrorists…plain and simple. So yes if a response to 9/11 if “all of a sudden”…well I don’t know what to say it.
First off, I don't think that Iraq has been getting the attention it "deserves." Clinton assed around a lot during his administration, sending inspectors in to see if Saddam had anything but in the end it was just all bark and no bite. Plus with the very beginnings of the Bush administration pre-9/11, little attention was given to Iraq IMO. It's almost been a year since 9/11 now, and suddenly we see Iraq has a big threat. We've been busy with Afghanistan and Israel I know, among other things, but still...
Quote:
You stated “lack of support Bush has gotten. Bush's approval ratings have fallen steadily ever since they shot up post-9/11”
Yes they have fallen (what wouldn't fall at the astounding historical setting record approval ratings he had) somewhat but he still has a huge approval rating…currently he has a 65% approval rating according to USA Today…that is pretty dang high.
Still could be better, especially with all of the partisan politics that occur in today's government. Democrats are going to rip Bush for a lot of things, especially his "tax cuts for the rich." Bush having a strong foundation (Iraq) would give him a strong upper hand over the left-wing.
Quote:
You stated “so with presidential campaigns beginning soon”
Huh????…the presidential elections aren’t for about another 3 years. Considering a presidential term is 4 years I don’t understand how they are “beginning soon”?
Well, 2003 is only a few months away. And presidential campaigns need financing from corporations, donations, and whatnot. Plus having a solid approval rating as the incumbent sure helps. If Bush managed to oust Hussein from power, approval ratings would shoot up and likely stay very high (70%+ I would estimate) through the beginnings of the presidential campaigns.
Quote:
You stated “it pisses me off to no end that OBL is still alive a year after 9/11”
No one knows if he is still alive or not…there is no proof one way or another. I got to say that out of billions of people who inhabit a very large planet….it would be quite difficult to find him…particularly if he is being hidden by another nation such as Iraq.
Still, with all of the intelligence and technology available to the United States, one would think that OBL would be at least close to being captured by now. Plus, Al-Qaida is reportedly alive and well. So much for progress.
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Since when do you type signatures?
"This win by the Panthers in Week 1 bodes well for the rest of the season." - Me last year
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted September 03, 2002 10:07 PM |
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Applause
Quote:
Nivek
You stated “It's been, what 10 years since Iraq has posed a significant threat? And all of a sudden, with the U.S. economy struggling, various high-profile scandals, etc. Iraq becomes a problem?”
All of a sudden??? We have been fighting with Iraq almost since we won the gulf war. Also I think 9/11 is something rather major that changed our perspective…the war on terrorism….Saddam is a supporter of terrorists…plain and simple. So yes if a response to 9/11 if “all of a sudden”…well I don’t know what to say it.
You stated “lack of support Bush has gotten. Bush's approval ratings have fallen steadily ever since they shot up post-9/11”
Yes they have fallen (what wouldn't fall at the astounding historical setting record approval ratings he had) somewhat but he still has a huge approval rating…currently he has a 65% approval rating according to USA Today…that is pretty dang high.
You stated “so with presidential campaigns beginning soon”
Huh????…the presidential elections aren’t for about another 3 years. Considering a presidential term is 4 years I don’t understand how they are “beginning soon”?
You stated “it pisses me off to no end that OBL is still alive a year after 9/11”
No one knows if he is still alive or not…there is no proof one way or another. I got to say that out of billions of people who inhabit a very large planet….it would be quite difficult to find him…particularly if he is being hidden by another nation such as Iraq.
Undead_Knight
You stated “The only reason that USA want to attack Iraq is to gain its oil resources. All arabian counries dont want this war because when Iraq that will be ruled by loyal to US government will come to oil world market prices will decrease as much as US want.”
What?….if that is so….why didn’t USA conquer Iraq 10 years ago when we easily could of taken them out…and as you say “gain its oil resources”?
You stated “US never cared about death of innocent civilians , examples are bombing cities in Afghanistan and Serbia.”
You got to be kidding….my only response is that you are either obviously biased or misinformed to make such an incorrect statement as that. USA could of done untold damage to civilians if they ever chose to not care…what is actually so incredibly surprising is the low numbers of civilian death in Afghanistan.
You stated “If US will continue attacking any country government of those disliked by US government sooner or later something like happened 11th september will happened again"
Huh??? There have been many countries that US does not approve of which we have not attacked. If USA, the only true world power, was as you say…well Cuba would of become the 51st state a long time ago. Come on!
Melissa_X
Thanks for the assistance on URL’s.
You stated “Why did Iraq all of a sudden become a problem when a Bush stepped in the Whitehouse? There was no threat when it was Clinton.”
I don’t think that is quite accurate as The history Guy web site states “Since the beginning of 1999, Allied pilots have launched over 1,100 missiles against 359 Iraqi targets. That number equals nearly three times the amount of ordnance used in the four-day Desert Fox strike. Also, the pilots in the Iraq War have flown two-thirds the number of missions as NATO pilots in the Kosovo War." Also it states that during the Clinton administration since operation Desert Fox “the Allies have engaged in almost daily attacks as Iraq attempts to enforce it's sovereignty over the "no-fly" zones.”
Regarding the corporate theft issues like Enron and Worldcom…what amazes me is that people would have to assume these debacles arouse overnight in the short term of less than a year of Bush’s presidency….these type of scandals were most likely in the making for years.
You stated “My kindest interpretation is that maybe the President knows about some pending Iraqi attack on the US and can't tell us for security reasons?”
I raise my drink to you on that interpretation
Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause
That is the best and most intelligent interpretation of world events I have ever read.
If the U.S. didn't care about civilians why don't we nuke western Europe and China?
And one more thing: We shouldn't nuke Iraq because the whole country would become a giant sheet of glass. The astronauts would be doing a space walk and the Earth turns just so and the astronauts are blinded. But I didn't say we shouldn't carpet bomb the place.
Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted September 04, 2002 07:18 AM |
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Privatehudson
No real debate with what you said about invasion of Iraq…so no need to argue Now regarding Isreal…well already had that debate with ya
Wolfman
Thanks for the support
Lews_Therin
You stated “Besides, it´s so laughable, for example the threat to the world posed by global warming is 100 times as alarming and dangerous as OBL or Saddam Hussein. That American fundamentalist gouvernment lacks contact to reality. Did you know that, instead of going against the destruction of planet Earth, they´re putting tons of money in anti-masturbation campaigns?
Global warming??? Are you seriously comparing the THEORY of global warning to the hard facts of OBL and Saddam’s evil acts? Global warming hmmm… I would encourage people to research the pollution volcanoes put out before claiming that mankind is having any seriously comparable threat to so-called global warming. We really must put these theories in their place….there is no unified front in the scientific community about the THEORY of global warming….but that Saddam has killed thousands upon thousands of innocents….there is no debate among the experts.
Lews….I hope you really aren’t seriously stating that the USA is putting public dollars into an anti-masturbation campaign! I know you must be kidding there is no way someone could even try to believe that….and I got to say I almost thought you were serious….good one
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted September 04, 2002 07:24 AM |
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Undead_Knight
You stated “USA cant conquer Iraq 10 years ago because that war with Iraq was with permission of UN and this permission”
I thought your premise earlier was that USA just wants to take over anyone’s country and oil/resources that we can? We had ample opportunity in the gulf war…and believe me with how swiftly the allies kicked Iraq’s butt there was little mention or fear of another Vietnam….fighting Iraq was Childs play. Also we don’t have UN’s “permission” now, but that won’t stop us if we think it is right. I don’t know…you seem like a nice guy but making some statements that are pretty hard to reconcile.
You stated “US army killed in Afghanistan more ppl than died in US 11th september, its proven fact and if censorship on US TV didnt allow u to know it, use alternative sources of information”
I really wish you knew more about America…to claim that the Press here is hiding something….our press is one of the most thorough and free presses in the world. They uncover so much…from our own scandals, to who the president is sleeping with, to who is lying, to politicians financial statements, etc. etc. I can’t even begin to list all the stuff that they have uncovered that has been of utmost embarrassment to the politicians.
The press is extraordinarily free here… The USA press was all over the story about when USA forces killed people reportedly at a wedding celebration whom reportedly fired weapons at the allies aircraft.
At the highest reputable sources estimate 1100-1300 innocents were unfortunately killed . For instance Human Rights Watch, which calculated at least 1000 civilian deaths, and one by Reuters news agency, which concluded that perhaps 982 people were killed in 14 incidents. These reports are consistent with British intelligence reports.
Do you believe the European press is also censored? They report many of the same estimates as the USA press. The only semi authoritative estimates that I could find which are much higher come from Professor Marc Herold (mind you a professor from the USA). But his methodology seems flawed as he relied upon reporting errors and distortions (i.e. reports from the Taliban to reporters, double counting, etc.)…and the US press also reported heavily on his estimates…so much for censorship.
I am curious were do you get your news…I don’t mean that in a put- down manner…I am just very curious. I have come across some rag tag web sites that state such high numbers, but with little solid evidence. As a side issue…there is very little chance anyone will know the casualties for certain.
Also to compare 9/11 casualties to Afghan casualties is an unfair comparison. The terrorist were callously and intentionally killing innocents. The allies have not intentionally been killing Afghan civilians.
You stated “Before revolution almost everything in Cuba belonged to Americans, soon after Fidel Kastro will die it will happen again so no need to fight with Cuba to gain it, just need to wait several years”
Again I thought your premise earlier was that USA will conquer any land that they want to get their resources? So following that premise why would we wait such a long time for Castro to die?
You stated “ppl in Iraq preferred to have Hussain as their leader and its their internal business when he must retire”
Are you aware he is a DICTATOR. The people have no choice….all those who oppose him are killed swiftly….he has killed approximately 70,000-130,000 of his own people….so how exactly do the Iraqi citizens “prefer” him?
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 04, 2002 03:27 PM |
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Quote:
Global warming??? Are you seriously comparing the THEORY of global warning to the hard facts of OBL and Saddam’s evil acts? Global warming hmmm… I would encourage people to research the pollution volcanoes put out before claiming that mankind is having any seriously comparable threat to so-called global warming. We really must put these theories in their place….there is no unified front in the scientific community about the THEORY of global warming….but that Saddam has killed thousands upon thousands of innocents….there is no debate among the experts.
Yeah Mr.Dinosaur, I didn´t expect anything else from you. Of course global warming is a fact, only few serious scientists do not acknowledge that. But why would you care when in Bangladesch thousands are drowned by the floods, and 8 millions lose their homes?
And even if there were any reasonable doubts about global warming, other than the US propaganda that you apparently believe in, your wilingness to "take the risk" is amazing. Oh, I forgot, first of all it´s the people from 3rd world countries that die or lose everything, and not you Americans. Why would you care?
In response you tell me that Saddam has killed thousands of innocents, to make clear why his removal is so much more urgent. Great argument of yours. Excuse me, did your gouvernment do anything against Pinochet when he massacred the socialist opposition? They even supported him. There are so many regimes no less cruel than Iraq´s that cooperated and cooperate well with the US gouvernment.
Besides, what about Bush? He has caused the deaths of thousands of innocent Afghans, a number larger than American victims of 9/11. Oh, they were accidentally killed, when you threw Daisy cutter bombs on them? I suppose it´s okay then ... I´d much rather be accidentally killed than intentionally, too.
Not to mention the pope who is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Africans, by Aids. I suggest he´d be shot first.
Now about Saddam´s ability and intention to initiate attacks with weapons of mass destruction, where is the evidence here, that you were so eager to get in the global warming issue? Guess why the rest of the world don´t support that war for oil and Bush´s popularity among the stupids: There is no evidence at all.
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arachnid
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 04, 2002 03:42 PM |
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Quote:
The press is extraordinarily free here… The USA press was all over the story about when USA forces killed people reportedly at a wedding celebration whom reportedly fired weapons at the allies aircraft.
You make it sound like the American press dont know there ass from there elbow, there should be no supposedly about it it either is a fact or fiction.
Quote:
Also to compare 9/11 casualties to Afghan casualties is an unfair comparison. The terrorist were callously and intentionally killing innocents. The allies have not intentionally been killing Afghan civilians.
Im sure it makes a big difference to the Afghan people that lost loved ones to a "mistakes". The comparison is far from unfair since its both effecting a family in nearly the exact same way.
Quote:
Again I thought your premise earlier was that USA will conquer any land that they want to get their resources? So following that premise why would we wait such a long time for Castro to die?
Maybe its because there is no resources that the US want in Cuba, unless there in desperate need of tobacco or maybe sugar?
Are you aware he is a DICTATOR. The people have no choice….all those who oppose him are killed swiftly….he has killed approximately 70,000-130,000 of his own people….so how exactly do the Iraqi citizens “prefer” him?
There is many countries that are ruled by dictators very similar to what you describe, so why Iraq?
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted September 04, 2002 03:45 PM |
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SIMPLE!
They can so they will. No-one is mad enough to back hussain openly so they are bound to pick them
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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